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Bharring wrote:
If it made sense, it wouldn't be Orkz?

More seriously, I see it as kinda like the real world mental image of "bikers". It's how they see themselves. As for Nobs, that's a good point. It may need iterating.

Wouldn't BA bikes still be as good astuff vanilla? Heck, Bikes are one of the places FC would be rather useful.

I post here to see what other people think. I didn't realize Ork bikers were considered OP by some.

OP is a strong word.

That said, if you ask ork players what is "competitive," ork bikers are going to be in that list.

Bikers in general, regardless of what codex you're talking about, are going to be in the "competitive" list. So far as I am aware, there are literally no counter-examples to this.

That's a strong sign that all bikes need a nerf, both ruleswise and pointswise.

Harlie Bikes aren't competitive. 50pts for t4 4+ 2W bike before upgrades...

I can't comment on the newer Corsair list, but the bikes in the old one were terrible.

Bharring wrote:
Harlie Bikes aren't competitive. 50pts for t4 4+ 2W bike before upgrades...

I can't comment on the newer Corsair list, but the bikes in the old one were terrible.

Harlequins in general have a bad reputation though, no?

But if you think about the other codices:

CSM bikers? Competitive for their codex. Especially with mark of nurgle.

Ork bikers? Competitive for their codex.

SM bikers? Competitive for their codex. [Even scout bikers are an OK deal, even though nobody really uses them. They're not bad. There's just better options.]

Dark Eldar bikers? Competitive for their codex.

Eldar bikers? COMPLETELY OP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The only Bikers that are currently a problem are the ones that Eldar have in the form of Scatterbikes. Make Scatterlasers 15 points and do something to make Shining Spears more worth it (like they gain Hit And Run as opposed to Warp Spiders having it for no reason other than them being better than everyone).

Scatterlasers should be 20 like an assault cannon. Since they are better to boot.

I would strongly disagree that SL are better than AC.

I would agree Guardian Jetbikes should pay 20 points for a SL, though.

A Falcon or Serpent shouldn't be paying 20pts for it, though.

Bharring wrote:
I would strongly disagree that SL are better than AC.

I would agree Guardian Jetbikes should pay 20 points for a SL, though.

A Falcon or Serpent shouldn't be paying 20pts for it, though.

That 12" extra range is money in the bank. AP 4 and rending are both pretty crappy in 7th ed. Assault cannons are garbage compared to SL.

Unless you can get inside 24". Then the AC wins vs anything 5+ or better. There are no targets the AC does worse against.

The AC does more damage to AV14 on average than a Lascannon. The SL may be too good vs too many targets, but the AC is good against everything the SL is, and is also good against the things the SL is weak against.

It's funny how a Shuriken Catapault, with 12" range and *pseudo* rending, is considered equal or better to a Bolt gun. But somehow *actual* rending and AP4 aren't worth the 12" difference in range?

It's all about opportunity cost and targets.

Shuriken catapults cause a LOT more damage to 2+ MCs, which are a high quality target. They also clear a lot more wounds against any 2+ armor target, which are expensive, making those wounds valuable. And they have the dice to be consistently generating pseudorends. Boltguns are useless vs quality targets. Making them useless. Because there's a ton of ways to get rid of low quality targets. The cheap triple whirlwind formation from the marine book will outkill dozens of boltguns over the course of a game. feth boltguns.

Any advantage you think the assault cannon is getting is completely negated by the fact that the scatterlaser will find an optimal target within 36".

Being good vs AV 14 is now meaningless in a game with D-weapons and haywire rifles.

SLs are weak vs 2+ armor MCs, but assault cannons aren't good vs them either, since assault cannons aren't throwing enough dice to fish for "6"s. Pseudorending with catapults' mass dice is much better than "real" rending that never happens due to lack of dice.

The ACs lack of range means it is vastly inferior against units that can alpha strike it with 36" or 48" guns. I think you have it reversed. There is no situation where I wouldn't rather have a SL. Also, the range means at worst the SL gets to fire one volley extra. That's pretty hard to make up.

That's like saying the Heavy Bolter is better than the Shuriken Cannon. 12" more range vs better killyness.

Bharring wrote:
That's like saying the Heavy Bolter is better than the Shuriken Cannon. 12" more range vs better killyness.

There is also a strength differential there. Not exactly the same. If the scatterlaser were only S5, the analysis would be totally different. AV 12 would be off the table. IKs wouldn't be dying left and right. IG vehicles would be getting glanced out on the front from 36" away.

The way I see it the issue with the space marine bike isn't the bike, but the garbage that is the basic unit riding them (essentially). Tacticals are a points sink for the most part. They are ineffective, slow, and have horrible upgrade options (mismatched). Scouts are in a similar boat. The only time either scouts or tacticals are good, is when they have objective secured. Even then they feel like a tax.

Windriders are the big issue. Scatterlasers and even shurikens, but especially scatterlasers make them too good, especially in the QUANTITIES they can be taken.

What are the bike units in SM that people actually complain about? It is the ones that can take all of one kind of weapon on every unit (most notably grav). But to do this is a major points sink. I would say overall SM are less of an issue than Eldar.

 NorseSig wrote:
The way I see it the issue with the space marine bike isn't the bike, but the garbage that is the basic unit riding them (essentially). Tacticals are a points sink for the most part. They are ineffective, slow, and have horrible upgrade options (mismatched). Scouts are in a similar boat. The only time either scouts or tacticals are good, is when they have objective secured. Even then they feel like a tax.

Windriders are the big issue. Scatterlasers and even shurikens, but especially scatterlasers make them too good, especially in the QUANTITIES they can be taken.

What are the bike units in SM that people actually complain about? It is the ones that can take all of one kind of weapon on every unit (most notably grav). But to do this is a major points sink. I would say overall SM are less of an issue than Eldar.

SM bikers can have a couple of grav guns. OOOOHH scary.

When did this thread become "SM bikes are worse than Windriders"? Who do you imagine thinks that?

I have no idea. Maybe Master of Ordinance?

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The only Bikers that are currently a problem...

Please explain to me why a Zhadsnark's warbiker is only 4 ppm better than a tactical marine with bolter.

Because that's what they're worth.

Let tactical Marines take another Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon so that they can somewhat specialize at a task, and suddenly they're not entirely garbage.

Sometimes this board overthinks fixes.

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"Bike version of a Dire Avenger"?

That's basically what a windrider is.

Sure, sure, fluffwise, it's a bike version of a guardian. Ruleswise, it acts a lot more like a bike version of a dire avenger.

If they want it to be, ruleswise, a guardian on a bike, then they need to make it cost 12 points more than a guardian, lose the relentless and make it have a 5+ armor save.

That really isn't true. At all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The only Bikers that are currently a problem are the ones that Eldar have in the form of Scatterbikes. Make Scatterlasers 15 points and do something to make Shining Spears more worth it (like they gain Hit And Run as opposed to Warp Spiders having it for no reason other than them being better than everyone).

I can see why you'd give Warp Spiders Hit and Run seeing as they basically teleport away. A much more interesting question is why a hit and run unit doesn't have that rule. But at least they get cover saves for moving. For some reason.....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The only Bikers that are currently a problem...

Please explain to me why a Zhadsnark's warbiker is only 4 ppm better than a tactical marine with bolter.

Because that's what they're worth.

Let tactical Marines take another Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon so that they can somewhat specialize at a task, and suddenly they're not entirely garbage.

Sometimes this board overthinks fixes.

I have advocated this for some time. That has been one of the serious issues with many space marine units. The lack of ability to specialize or take stuff in enough numbers to matter. Look at all the space marine units that get spammed. They pretty much are all units that you can spam a weapon on and have a decent platform to use it. Which tends to be another issue with marines (and various other units for that matter).

Bharring wrote:
The way I see it, whether the shot hits the bike or PA Marine, it's about equally likely to take it out.

Sure, some hits to the bike won't take it out that would have taken out the marine, but also some hits to the bike would take it out that wouldn't take out a Marine.

The same explosive bolter round that'd drop a Marine on foot might hit the bike instead of the Marine, but what makes the bike tougher? If it were, why not make Power Armor out of it?

The armor save and T4 seems to be enough to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bikes should be an option. But it should be a mobility choice, not a tankiness choice.

but what makes the bike tougher? If it were, why not make Power Armor out of it?
but what makes the rhino tougher? If it were, why not make Power Armor out of it?
but what makes the Starship tougher? If it were, why not make Power Armor out of it?

The bike is a large engine that transports both its rider and heavier armour than the marine himself wears. The marine sits behind a massive shield into which guns are mounted. Bullets that strike the front of the bike will most likely hit either the shield, the shield protecting the wheel, or the wheel. The wheel itself is a massive slab-like cylinder- and we have gel filled tyres that cannot be deflated by gunfire today.
It's not just designed for speed. It is designed specifically to tank small arms fire.

If I kicked you in the face (purely for scientific reasons) and then kicked a motorbike (any part), which do you think would get up and work fine?

 Traditio wrote:


There's an easy way to test this.

Would you pay 24 ppm for a SM biker without relentless? If your answer is "no," would you at least have considered it?

What about 22 ppm for a Zhadsnark's warbiker without relentless?

How about 21 ppm for a windrider with a 5+ armor save and no relentless?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternative way of looking at Zhadsnark's warbikers:

A Zhadsnark warbiker is only 4 ppm better than a tactical marine with bolter?

I cry bull gak!

Why are Ork Bikers (Zhadsnark bikers aren't cheaper or more expensive) only 18ppm? Well for starters your only crying about Zhadsnark who makes bikers into troops. He is a FW model and costs 150points, he has the same statline as a Warboss on a bike except he gets a PK that swings at I4, a Big Shoota instead of TL Dakka Gunz and a 6+ armor save instead of a 4+. For comparison a Warboss on a bike with PK is only 110pts, so your paying 40 pts for a significantly worse armor save, a significantly worse gun, a PK at initiative (good) and the ability to turn Bikes into troops.

So anyway, lets get into the bike itself, an Ork Biker is still S3, an Ork Biker has nothing remotely close to ATSKNF, and in fact are still Leadership 7, An Ork Biker doesn't benefit from Waaagh (which would make them damn near the best unit in our codex)

Finally, the only reason other armies are afraid of Ork Bikers, isn't the ork bikers, it is the Nob biker attached to them. That Nob is 28pts and is still utterly useless until you give him that PK so he ends up costing 53pts, or as much as 3 Ork Bikers. And best part? still have 4+ armor not 3+ armor.

A SM Tactical Marine has better BS, S, I, LD, Armor and special rules then ork bikers, they have the ability to take special weapons and heavy weapons. An Ork biker has better T, Attacks (by 1), and a better but shorter ranged gun (S5 assault 3 TL is good)....that is it actually.

So why are Ork bikers only 4ppm more expensive then tactical marines? because they suck, in any other codex they wouldn't even be seen, SM players would never take them that is for sure. The only time they are good is when they are spammed, by paying 150pts for Zhadsnark so you can take a bunch for troops, take more Fast attack bikers or Storm boyz and then hope to god you can saturate your enemy that he can't kill your units before you get into CC.

"In any other codex they wouldn't even bee seen" really? I'd take those. He'll, I've practically got them with swift claws.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
"In any other codex they wouldn't even bee seen" really? I'd take those. He'll, I've practically got them with swift claws.

I don't know if SW received the buff from the new rules for scouts, but if they did? Swiftclaws are markedly better then Ork Warbikers. And cost 2pts more...

Lets say that SW will never receive the buffs that other SM players got and compare the two.

Ork bikers have better WS, Attacks, ......and are 18pts a model
SW SwiftClaws have better BS, S, I, LD, Save and cost 2points more.

Ork bikers have a better gun, S5 Assault 3 TL. But shorter range. And access to exactly zero special/heavy weapons
SwiftClaws have access to a host of specialty weapons from flamers to plasma and melta.

Ohh And swiftclaws gain +2 attacks on the charge because of rage.

So your telling me you would take Ork Warbikers instead of swiftclaws in your army? Either your not sure what your saying or you can't grasp basic math. Swiftclaws are better in almost every way.

Nope, still ws bs 3, and buffs aren't coming any time soon. Ballistic Skill doesn't matter because the only guns you'll actually use are twin linked and are probably on par with bs 3 with out me having to do math. Range really doesn't matter on assault troops like war bikers and swiftclaws, you'll be in close anyways. And don't make a big deal about rage, they've got 1 base and no double ccw which is horrid for an assault unit. They can't even be useful on the charge with ws 3, and low attacks. Special weapons, armour save, and initiative is all that they have over orks, and even then you'll probably be jinkin for a 3+ save anyways, special weapons on bikers who have bad bs and bad assault capability is wasted, and initiative doesn't matter if you can't hurt your opponent with a measly 3 str 4 attacks each and a few How.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Nope, still ws bs 3, and buffs aren't coming any time soon. Ballistic Skill doesn't matter because the only guns you'll actually use are twin linked and are probably on par with bs 3 with out me having to do math. Range really doesn't matter on assault troops like war bikers and swiftclaws, you'll be in close anyways. And don't make a big deal about rage, they've got 1 base and no double ccw which is horrid for an assault unit. They can't even be useful on the charge with ws 3, and low attacks. Special weapons, armour save, and initiative is all that they have over orks, and even then you'll probably be jinkin for a 3+ save anyways, special weapons on bikers who have bad bs and bad assault capability is wasted, and initiative doesn't matter if you can't hurt your opponent with a measly 3 str 4 attacks each and a few How.

The only time Swift Claws are worth much is when they manage to get mistaken for Wolf Guard bikers or Priests on bikes and get shot at by mistake.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Nope, still ws bs 3, and buffs aren't coming any time soon. Ballistic Skill doesn't matter because the only guns you'll actually use are twin linked and are probably on par with bs 3 with out me having to do math. Range really doesn't matter on assault troops like war bikers and swiftclaws, you'll be in close anyways. And don't make a big deal about rage, they've got 1 base and no double ccw which is horrid for an assault unit. They can't even be useful on the charge with ws 3, and low attacks. Special weapons, armour save, and initiative is all that they have over orks, and even then you'll probably be jinkin for a 3+ save anyways, special weapons on bikers who have bad bs and bad assault capability is wasted, and initiative doesn't matter if you can't hurt your opponent with a measly 3 str 4 attacks each and a few How.

The only time Swift Claws are worth much is when they manage to get mistaken for Wolf Guard bikers or Priests on bikes and get shot at by mistake.

Good at cheap objective grabbing.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Nope, still ws bs 3, and buffs aren't coming any time soon. Ballistic Skill doesn't matter because the only guns you'll actually use are twin linked and are probably on par with bs 3 with out me having to do math. Range really doesn't matter on assault troops like war bikers and swiftclaws, you'll be in close anyways. And don't make a big deal about rage, they've got 1 base and no double ccw which is horrid for an assault unit. They can't even be useful on the charge with ws 3, and low attacks. Special weapons, armour save, and initiative is all that they have over orks, and even then you'll probably be jinkin for a 3+ save anyways, special weapons on bikers who have bad bs and bad assault capability is wasted, and initiative doesn't matter if you can't hurt your opponent with a measly 3 str 4 attacks each and a few How.

The only time Swift Claws are worth much is when they manage to get mistaken for Wolf Guard bikers or Priests on bikes and get shot at by mistake.

Good at cheap objective grabbing.

Pretty much.

What kills swiftclaws is that they don't have a CCW and pistol so they lose out on the extra attack while Wolf Guard on a bike have higher WS (2 higher if using Champions of Fenris detachment/formations) and the CCW + pistol stock. Makes Bike Guard have double the attacks of swiftclaws when charged and one attack more when charging and usually hitting on 3s.

Unfortunately wolf guard with bikes can get pricy fast if you give them any upgrades other than a couple combis. Which is unfortunate, I hope the power weapon point decrease that SM have will be available to non-codex chapters because it actually makes then viable so you don't have a 50 point 1 wound biker.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Unfortunately wolf guard with bikes can get pricy fast if you give them any upgrades other than a couple combis. Which is unfortunate, I hope the power weapon point decrease that SM have will be available to non-codex chapters because it actually makes then viable so you don't have a 50 point 1 wound biker.

I doubt it. Could you imagine the outrage if Thunderwolf Cavalry got cheaper load-outs?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Unfortunately wolf guard with bikes can get pricy fast if you give them any upgrades other than a couple combis. Which is unfortunate, I hope the power weapon point decrease that SM have will be available to non-codex chapters because it actually makes then viable so you don't have a 50 point 1 wound biker.

I doubt it. Could you imagine the outrage if Thunderwolf Cavalry got cheaper load-outs?

He didn't mention TWC. Giving the cheaper gear to Wolf Guard seems completely fair to me. It gives them a purpose and fits the fluff.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Unfortunately wolf guard with bikes can get pricy fast if you give them any upgrades other than a couple combis. Which is unfortunate, I hope the power weapon point decrease that SM have will be available to non-codex chapters because it actually makes then viable so you don't have a 50 point 1 wound biker.

I doubt it. Could you imagine the outrage if Thunderwolf Cavalry got cheaper load-outs?

He didn't mention TWC. Giving the cheaper gear to Wolf Guard seems completely fair to me. It gives them a purpose and fits the fluff.

Three things though. Weaponry pricing for the Space Wolves is the same across the board, Thunderwolf Cavalry are Wolf Guard riding wolves and historically what has gone into effect for the Wolf Guard has gone into effect for Thunderwolf Cavalry.