Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

i have played WFB and WH40K since they came out. but i cant seem to get over the idea that in the last decade the game has gone to Games workshop releases a book and now there is a new OP army. I loose two to six games a month and cant seem to win to psykers, and drop pods or tau.
with my orks and i have a very large army with lots of different types of units. Is it me or the game?

Orks are... an interesting case. A very good Ork player can generally beat a mediocre player playing any other army, but at equal skill levels, they will generally lose.

Orks lose to lots of templates and/or buckets of shooting dice.
Just remember to use lots of lads and I think the Lootas have a fair bit of firepower. #1 targets for drop pods.

normal boyz or boyz with armor?

Normal. The ones with armour will just attract weapons that are AP4 anyway.

Elder_Zork wrote:
normal boyz or boyz with armor?

Boys before toys!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Normal. The ones with armour will just attract weapons that are AP4 anyway.

Besides autocannons, what weapons are AP4? And are autocannons really used a lot?

What I'm seeing is an escalation of AP3/2/1 and not going for much else. You're either being shot by the grav or the bolters (okay, bad example. you probably would be better off without heavy armor vs grav)

Not sure what scatter lasers have, if those are AP4 then disregard me

Rihgu wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Normal. The ones with armour will just attract weapons that are AP4 anyway.

Besides autocannons, what weapons are AP4? And are autocannons really used a lot?

Heavy bolters are AP 4.

Sternguard kraken ammunition is AP 4.

Heavy flamers are AP 4.

Power maces are AP 4.

Uh...

 Traditio wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Normal. The ones with armour will just attract weapons that are AP4 anyway.

Besides autocannons, what weapons are AP4? And are autocannons really used a lot?

Heavy bolters are AP 4.

Sternguard kraken ammunition is AP 4.

Heavy flamers are AP 4.

Power maces are AP 4.

Uh...

Heavy Bolters are widely regarded as garbage, and not widely taken. Although, with free Razorbacks I have seen a slight resurgence in the assault cannon.
Most common Sternguard configuration is combi-meltas in drop pods. Granted, if you're not running any worthy threats they could easily turn that special ammunition against your boys, so I'll take that as valid.
Heavy Flamers - oh yea, and those will especially be seen against orks. Fair.
Power Maces - outside of death cult assassins (and chaplains, who I don't think get any other option), who takes these?

I guess I really meant, "What commonly seen/meta weapons have AP4", rather than an exhaustive list of every weapon/psychic power with AP4.

Rihgu wrote:Heavy Bolters are widely regarded as garbage, and not widely taken.

Against gladius razorback spam, it's a possibility. Heavy bolters are the stock weapon for razorbacks.

"Power Maces - outside of death cult assassins (and chaplains, who I don't think get any other option), who takes these? "

I do.

Martel732 wrote:
"Power Maces - outside of death cult assassins (and chaplains, who I don't think get any other option), who takes these? "

I do.

Ditto. I have a squad of honor guard that I don't use (because no viable delivery system worth taking), and they have maces.

S6, AP 4 is nothing to sneeze at.

Its not just your orks. The game has gotten way out of hand. Not only in terms of power creep, but just balance in general. I can tell you with 100% certainty I will not be purchasing 8th edition already. Everyone seems to think that releasing a new edition will solve the plethora of issues plaguing the game atm, yet they do not acknowledge the core issue. Codex balance.

GW is moving away from releasing additional codex's and instead moving towards formations. The problem with this? The majority of the codices have absolutely abysmal internal balance. When the core problem lies within the codex's themselves how can there be any hope improving the tabletop if the codices are not addressed? Point costs are all over the place. Some armies have units that are 2-3 times as effective similar units in other armies, at the same point cost. When discrepancies like this exist, balance will never be possible.

Elder_Zork wrote:
i have played WFB and WH40K since they came out. but i cant seem to get over the idea that in the last decade the game has gone to Games workshop releases a book and now there is a new OP army. I loose two to six games a month and cant seem to win to psykers, and drop pods or tau.
with my orks and i have a very large army with lots of different types of units. Is it me or the game?

the game is a complete shitshow without even the veneer of balance. Skill is almost entirely in abusive list building at this point as opposed to generalship. The game is trying to be 3 or 4 different game systems all in one, and doing none of them well, seemingly intentionally so.

Rihgu wrote:
Power Maces - outside of death cult assassins (and chaplains, who I don't think get any other option), who takes these?

Death-Cult Assassins were required to have Power Swords in particular, last I checked.

What did you have in your list for the last few lost games?

 Traditio wrote:

Elder_Zork wrote:
normal boyz or boyz with armor?

Boys before toys!

If you want to lose sure. As it is best choice from troops is 2x10 grots.

The game has pretty much passed works by. With the staggering number of high rate of fire weapons that other armies have gotten it's just Impossible to get enough boots on the ground. It doesn't matter what ap the weapons are, you put enough shots down field, your going to drop Greenskins.

Tau missiles are basically autocannons in all but name.
Pink horrors shooting flickering fire mind bullets.
Guard eradicator nova Cannon (that also ignores cover)
Manticore has d3 str 10 Ap4 large blasts per missile
GK psycannons, incinerators and their heavy versions
Heavy flamers on sm land speeder storms, sternguard, dreads
Assault cannons
Skyhammer missiles
Frag cannons IIRC
The flamestorm cannons on Baal preds and hellhounds IIRC
Guard use autocannons in many units, from infantry platoons through to Russ variants
CSM havoks are usually packing autocannons
Necron tomb blades packing heavy Gauss blasters (that basically come with ignores cover)
Skitarii ranger stock guns
I believe the whirlwind has an Ap4 mode
Fairly sure there's a couple of Ap4 nids ranged options, but since they aren't devs, you rarely see them

Ditto. I have a squad of honor guard that I don't use (because no viable delivery system worth taking), and they have maces.

S6, AP 4 is nothing to sneeze at.

Indeed. It's a better general-purpose choice than a power sword because it improves your fighting potential against every target - against 4+ save or worse, both ignore the armour but the maul gets +2 strength (potentially removing Feel No Pain and certainly making the 'to wound' roll easier) whilst against a 2+ save the power maul still gets its strength boost whilst the sword gets bugger all.

Even against 3+ saves, 4+ to wound to 2+ to wound is still nearly double the fighting power. It's not as good as a power sword (triple) but the benefits against anyone who's not a basic space marine make it a better choice. Hell, a marine with a power maul is even half decent against tanks - S6 can job rear armour fairly well and you get an extra attack relative to a power fist.

There are still a few nasty ork units. Formations are definitely worth looking at - units like Blitz Brigade and Bully Boyz are quite nice, as are Zhadsnark and his Bikerz

Commissar Benny wrote:
Its not just your orks. The game has gotten way out of hand. Not only in terms of power creep, but just balance in general. I can tell you with 100% certainty I will not be purchasing 8th edition already. Everyone seems to think that releasing a new edition will solve the plethora of issues plaguing the game atm, yet they do not acknowledge the core issue. Codex balance.

GW is moving away from releasing additional codex's and instead moving towards formations. The problem with this? The majority of the codices have absolutely abysmal internal balance. When the core problem lies within the codex's themselves how can there be any hope improving the tabletop if the codices are not addressed? Point costs are all over the place. Some armies have units that are 2-3 times as effective similar units in other armies, at the same point cost. When discrepancies like this exist, balance will never be possible.

This
Massive problems all over with regards to balance and points costs.
I'll probably still buy an 8th edition though

 Traditio wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Normal. The ones with armour will just attract weapons that are AP4 anyway.

Besides autocannons, what weapons are AP4? And are autocannons really used a lot?

Heavy bolters are AP 4.

Sternguard kraken ammunition is AP 4.

Heavy flamers are AP 4.

Power maces are AP 4.

Uh...

Railgun submunitions (large blast too)
Tau missile pods/high yield missile pods
Cyclic ion blasters

I /will/ be spamming str7 ap4 in my list. I love Cibs and I love broadsides.

Doesn't change the fact that AP 4 is not a property that is sought after when building a list. Wound spam is much more potent.

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't change the fact that AP 4 is not a property that is sought after when building a list. Wound spam is much more potent.

Yes but ap 3 2 and 1 ususally is and they are just as effective as ap4 when dealing with 4+ armor. I'll drop an overcharged ion cannon large blast on a group of boys any day.

Changing the AP system is goes a long way to fixing some of the balance issues, as Weapons seem to go from "auto include" to "utterly worthless" just by 1 point of AP, depending on the type of weapon.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Its not just your orks. The game has gotten way out of hand. Not only in terms of power creep, but just balance in general. I can tell you with 100% certainty I will not be purchasing 8th edition already. Everyone seems to think that releasing a new edition will solve the plethora of issues plaguing the game atm, yet they do not acknowledge the core issue. Codex balance.

GW is moving away from releasing additional codex's and instead moving towards formations. The problem with this? The majority of the codices have absolutely abysmal internal balance. When the core problem lies within the codex's themselves how can there be any hope improving the tabletop if the codices are not addressed? Point costs are all over the place. Some armies have units that are 2-3 times as effective similar units in other armies, at the same point cost. When discrepancies like this exist, balance will never be possible.

I'm actually hoping that 8th edition is going to be vastly different, to the point that all former codices will become obsolete.
And to me, the non-release of new codices is a hint that the core rules will change so much that all codices will have to be redone completely.
But that might be wishful thinking...

the one thing AoS did right was gathering all of the armies into meta-factions based on their alignment. I hope if 8th edition does anything like that they'd also go that route. at least it means we get chunks of armies updated instead of one by one, especially if they decide to keep the 5 flavours of power armor as standalone codexes.

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't change the fact that AP 4 is not a property that is sought after when building a list. Wound spam is much more potent.

Yes but ap 3 2 and 1 ususally is and they are just as effective as ap4 when dealing with 4+ armor. I'll drop an overcharged ion cannon large blast on a group of boys any day.

As I said:

Boys before toys!

They'll die with 6+ armor or 4+ armor. Might as well just take the extra bodies.

Take your whole list in Trukks. Bullyboyz (formation I believe) and standard boyz. Put the Warboss in with the Meganobz and give him the lucky stikk.

Turboboost on your opponents face and destroy him. That's the most potent Ork list I've seen.

 Traditio wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't change the fact that AP 4 is not a property that is sought after when building a list. Wound spam is much more potent.

Yes but ap 3 2 and 1 ususally is and they are just as effective as ap4 when dealing with 4+ armor. I'll drop an overcharged ion cannon large blast on a group of boys any day.

As I said:

Boys before toys!

They'll die with 6+ armor or 4+ armor. Might as well just take the extra bodies.

Since they die whether they have 6+ or 4+ save might just as well take grots. They die just as well but at least you waste less points. Neither unit will do anything but camp at an objective hugging ground and hoping enemy doesn't waste guns to take them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runic wrote:
Take your whole list in Trukks. Bullyboyz (formation I believe) and standard boyz. Put the Warboss in with the Meganobz and give him the lucky stikk.

Turboboost on your opponents face and destroy him. That's the most potent Ork list I've seen.

Problem with that is that boyz in trukk's get their trukk down and most of the squad gets taken out by explosion and some more to mob rule. Then nobz leading will get challenge killed and you have handful of basic boyz who don't accomplish much.