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Why can't both MSU and large units be used instead of it being a binary always use one or the other?

 auticus wrote:
Why can't both MSU and large units be used instead of it being a binary always use one or the other?

Because you're eventually investing so many points into "troop/core/battleline" units that, depending on your army it may be diluting your ability to spend those points on more interesting options?

It'll definitely be a choice per player, based on their army, and play-style... which I think is terrific.

For example, my wife's Seraphon REALLY want to have a giant, impenetrable block of Saurus Guard, so they can reap the benefits of the buffs her list likes to put on a focused unit. But most of my Death lists won't even bat an eye at throwing a couple more MSU skeletons/archers/etc...

 auticus wrote:
Why can't both MSU and large units be used instead of it being a binary always use one or the other?

Depends on the armies.

I have the bloodbound and Sigmarines and I will be running them differently but mainly due to points per unit.

Bloodbound are a horde army and I will run them as such and try to mitigate the negatives.

SC I think benefit more from MSU and again mitigating the negatives.

Speaking of which, has anyone point costed the starter box contents using General's Handbook? I only have that plus the contents of the new Warhammer Quest and was wondering how balanced the starter where points are concerned.

it's 870 pts for the Sigmar side of the beginner box (which puts it a little north of the average start collecting box), I can't imagine the chaos side is far off from that.

Thank you.

 Grimgold wrote:
MSU vs Large units is kind of the debate I'm having. MSU get additional leaders and are more resistant to battle shock (because if you kill enough that battle shock is a concern you probably don't have many models left to loose). Large units are better in CC (because you can get all of their attacks in a single activation) but are more vulnerable to battle shock (a bad roll or a minus to bravery can really hurt you). Maybe the tipping point is MSU make it easier to get the battle line requirement.

Also gets you Batallions.cheapest.If your req is 3 units, could be as easy as 15 guys

Now that Battalions cost points I'm not sure they're worth taking though, unless the bonus is like really really really good.

I'm looking at a more Monstrous style list. They're pretty garbage in 40k (except Tau and Wraithknights because reasons) but it looks like they can really work here, especially the Bastiladon or some of the big Stormcast models.

Since batltions cost points, it's a choice as opposed to compulsory. I saw a very clever use of one in a batrep using skyborn slayers and a single hero in hiding to stay off of the board so a celstant prime could charge up. When the force landed the celestant prime had 8 attacks at 2+/3+ with -3 rend and 3w per hit. His first attack He dropped 21 wounds with no saves due to rend on a dragon with 18 wounds. I'm not a fan of laming it out like that, but I had to admit it was effective.

It's really weird that they didn't match up the units as sold vs. units as points. It's a hotdog/hotdog bun situation. you have to figure the lowest common denominator in order to use all your models, or either not use models or pay points for models you aren't fielding.

It would have made a lot more sense to match the unit number to the number of models in one box.

 pox wrote:
It's really weird that they didn't match up the units as sold vs. units as points. It's a hotdog/hotdog bun situation. you have to figure the lowest common denominator in order to use all your models, or either not use models or pay points for models you aren't fielding.

It would have made a lot more sense to match the unit number to the number of models in one box.

Agreed, but if we're looking for a silver lining, I suppose it is that you can build a single box of many things in multiple load-outs, and then assemble your models from the gear/WYWIWYG for a given night.

Battalions are amazing. All points systems required points to field them and they were still used in many armies. The fact that you get an additional Artefact for each one is a big boon too. They will still make up a massive part of the game in Matched Play.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Also, can we have clarification on the three rules of one?

They're simple, and a welcome addition to the game (in my opinion).
-Rolls of 1 to hit, to wound, and to save (before modifiers) are always failures.
-Each spell can be attempted once per turn. No more running around spamming Mystic Shield on units (or worse yet dumping it on the same unit repeatedly).
-Abilities that could go on infinitely (for example Darmonettes getting extra attacks on rolls of 6 to hit) only trigger once. After the first example of an ability in a given instance it cannot trigger again.

Hope that helps!

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 pox wrote:
It's really weird that they didn't match up the units as sold vs. units as points. It's a hotdog/hotdog bun situation. you have to figure the lowest common denominator in order to use all your models, or either not use models or pay points for models you aren't fielding.

It would have made a lot more sense to match the unit number to the number of models in one box.

Agreed, but if we're looking for a silver lining, I suppose it is that you can build a single box of many things in multiple load-outs, and then assemble your models from the gear/WYWIWYG for a given night.

Truedat, you can always assemble the command models, and decide on the day if you want several small units or one giant unit. (or use two boxes and make weapon options.)

 pox wrote:
It's really weird that they didn't match up the units as sold vs. units as points. It's a hotdog/hotdog bun situation. you have to figure the lowest common denominator in order to use all your models, or either not use models or pay points for models you aren't fielding.

I'm curious if events will allow for players to add in single models to better fill points, as the math to calculate per model cost is extremely easy, makes players happy, allows for greater variety of forces, etc. I don't really see the value in making people pay for models they don't have, or take smaller units than they'd like to, or not take them at all because the math doesn't work out.

- Salvage

The book is not very "long" but seems to cover the play-ability of all 3 modes of the game really well.

For those still wounded by the destruction of WFB, please give AoS a chance. The ruleset is really well done and I could definitely see 40k rolling to this. Plus the newer model line has been really ace!

I also got a good long look at this. Very nice, not sure if points are balanced or not.

If this does not correspond with an app update GW will REALLY be dropping the ball there.

 sfshilo wrote:
I also got a good long look at this. Very nice, not sure if points are balanced or not.

As compared to the balance of GW's points from the last 5 years or so they are good; very playable without obvious must/never take options. That said, no they are not balanced. Some models are over/undercosted a fair margin and on the whole monsters/heroes (and especially monster heroes) cost too little for how powerful they are. The forge organization does help somewhat, though I find the monster limit ('Behemoths') to not be very restrictive as compared to heroes & war machines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimgold wrote:
Since batltions cost points, it's a choice as opposed to compulsory. I saw a very clever use of one in a batrep using skyborn slayers and a single hero in hiding to stay off of the board so a celstant prime could charge up. When the force landed the celestant prime had 8 attacks at 2+/3+ with -3 rend and 3w per hit. His first attack He dropped 21 wounds with no saves due to rend on a dragon with 18 wounds. I'm not a fan of laming it out like that, but I had to admit it was effective.

The Pitched Battle scenarios would make such a tactic near auto-lose; the opponent would have too many victory points from board control for the Stormcast to recover.

 Etna's Vassal wrote:

-Abilities that could go on infinitely (for example Darmonettes getting extra attacks on rolls of 6 to hit) only trigger once. After the first example of an ability in a given instance it cannot trigger again.

Does this count even if the ability/spell specifically states it could potentially trigger multiple times, such as the foot of gork spell?

I'm interested in seeing the points for a unit of Pink Horrors, since each model killed will split into 2 blue horrors, which in turn split into 2 flamekin. That's a lot of extra models being brought in.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Etna's Vassal wrote:

-Abilities that could go on infinitely (for example Darmonettes getting extra attacks on rolls of 6 to hit) only trigger once. After the first example of an ability in a given instance it cannot trigger again.

Does this count even if the ability/spell specifically states it could potentially trigger multiple times, such as the foot of gork spell?

I'm interested in seeing the points for a unit of Pink Horrors, since each model killed will split into 2 blue horrors, which in turn split into 2 flamekin. That's a lot of extra models being brought in.

Pink Horrors are 140 for 10, which puts them on the expensive side of Battleline, but they're also Wizards. Their shooting attack is so-so, but it lets you have another source to shoot Arcane Bolts from or Shield your dudes from. With the Rule of One not allowing the same spell to be cast twice no matter who did it the first time, it's less good (can't spam Pink Horror units and get a bunch of Bolts), but it can let your threaten Mortal Wounds from multiple points on the board.

If you're playing Pitched, you can't summon the Blue Horror/Flamekin units unless you allocated points for them, due to how Summoning works.

Requizen wrote:
Pink Horrors are 140 for 10, which puts them on the expensive side of Battleline, but they're also Wizards. Their shooting attack is so-so, but it lets you have another source to shoot Arcane Bolts from or Shield your dudes from. With the Rule of One not allowing the same spell to be cast twice no matter who did it the first time, it's less good (can't spam Pink Horror units and get a bunch of Bolts), but it can let your threaten Mortal Wounds from multiple points on the board.

Fakk me, you're right. I've been wanting to get my Tizz Daemons back on the board and thought Matched had finally toned them down enough to use without too much eye rolling. Having my horror blocks incapable of casting a spell if somebody else uses Shield or Bolt (and with 3x horrors that's guaranteed) is a little more nerfed than I expected, especially for an army with virtually no rend

Ah well, at least they can fling fire around. Better than what they did in 8E most the time Though this seriously has me rethinking the various duplicate choices I used to take in 8E and figured I'd carry over to AOS - redundancy is cool, except when it makes the second unit worthless

- Salvage

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

The Pitched Battle scenarios would make such a tactic near auto-lose; the opponent would have too many victory points from board control for the Stormcast to recover.

Tabling your opponent is an auto win, and in the match I watched he did it in less than two rounds. It's not a technique I'd use because it's too risky, but it did get me thinking about how to deal with big point sink baddies like Skarbrand, Nagash, and the occasional Dragonprince. My current thought is a unit of 10 retributors and a knight vexillor ought to be a good counter, especially if I get first turn. If you have a Lord Castellant and your opponent has a lousy rend value, that could be game over first turn.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Pink Horrors are 140 for 10, which puts them on the expensive side of Battleline, but they're also Wizards. Their shooting attack is so-so, but it lets you have another source to shoot Arcane Bolts from or Shield your dudes from. With the Rule of One not allowing the same spell to be cast twice no matter who did it the first time, it's less good (can't spam Pink Horror units and get a bunch of Bolts), but it can let your threaten Mortal Wounds from multiple points on the board.

Fakk me, you're right. I've been wanting to get my Tizz Daemons back on the board and thought Matched had finally toned them down enough to use without too much eye rolling. Having my horror blocks incapable of casting a spell if somebody else uses Shield or Bolt (and with 3x horrors that's guaranteed) is a little more nerfed than I expected, especially for an army with virtually no rend

Ah well, at least they can fling fire around. Better than what they did in 8E most the time Though this seriously has me rethinking the various duplicate choices I used to take in 8E and figured I'd carry over to AOS - redundancy is cool, except when it makes the second unit worthless

- Salvage

Well, there is an upside to taking them. If you want to go the Summoning route, more Pink Horror units make it very reliable. As each "Summon X" spell is a different spell, you can summon multiple units per turn as long as you have the points in your summoning pool and the Chaos Wizards to cast it.

Example: You have 200 points left in your Summoning pool. Horror unit 1 casts "Summon Flamers of Tzeentch" (which are freaking awesome but expensive), but fail to cast. Horror unit 2 can now cast "Summon Burning Chariot of Tzeentch", since you have not used your Summoning points and they are different spells.

The result is that if you want to go the summoning route (which, while weaker than Open Play or 40k is still pretty good), Horrors help mitigate failures by giving you more chances/options to summon in reinforcements. So, not auto-take, but they're definitely a good choice depending on your army.

Requizen wrote:
Well, there is an upside to taking them. If you want to go the Summoning route ...

Yeaaaa I'm good. I really hate summoning, and that rule is the reason I haven't played my (fully painted as of 2015) DOT in AOS, as Tizz seems to be one of the most abusive summon spam armies. I do appreciate the clarification that different summon spells are different spells, I'm not sure I would have caught that?

For the record, I'm also trying to avoid taking flamers for a bit. I ran 6 in 8E when they were basically total garbage, don't think I'm ready to plop those bad boys down and start deleting things ala 7E Although knowing that my army now isn't crushing out 5+ arcane bolts a round makes me feel a little less guilty ........

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Well, there is an upside to taking them. If you want to go the Summoning route ...

Yeaaaa I'm good. I really hate summoning, and that rule is the reason I haven't played my (fully painted as of 2015) DOT in AOS, as Tizz seems to be one of the most abusive summon spam armies. I do appreciate the clarification that different summon spells are different spells, I'm not sure I would have caught that?

For the record, I'm also trying to avoid taking flamers for a bit. I ran 6 in 8E when they were basically total garbage, don't think I'm ready to plop those bad boys down and start deleting things ala 7E Although knowing that my army now isn't crushing out 5+ arcane bolts a round makes me feel a little less guilty ........

- Salvage

Yeah, I feel like Tzeentch is still in an ok spot after the changes to casting because they still have the best shooting out of all the Daemon armies (though probably not Chaos in general, because Skaven have some pretty good options). Probably can't run mono-Tzeentch that well, just because you basically lack all sorts of melee options other than Fatey and Princes.

Its hard running mono-any god really. Which is a shame.

Pure khorne armies lack a lot of shooting and are vulnerable to battle shock (daemons not withstanding) and their damage output is kind of meh mostly.

Khorne is in a pretty sad place at the moment in general.

Luckily, my 40k collection that I'm going to use in AoS is mostly Nurgle and Tzeentch, which despite the fluff actually compliment each other fairly well.

Requizen wrote:Probably can't run mono-Tzeentch that well, just because you basically lack all sorts of melee options other than Fatey and Princes.

auticus wrote:Pure khorne armies lack a lot of shooting and are vulnerable to battle shock (daemons not withstanding) and their damage output is kind of meh mostly.

Funnily enough, I usually run pure Kr0n in AOS and will be returning to pure Tizz for the campaign thing. Tellingly though I've fairly severely up-gunned my Khorne (5-7 Skullcannons ) and am planning to take as much of my punchy Tzeentch stuff as I can (Prince + Grinder + Screamerstar), to counteract the lack of rend and avoid the daemonic gunline effect. Excited to see how my blue gribblies work out - Khorne has been fun, but Bloodletters suck pretty hard, even under their friendly Bloodsecrator's standard, and once the Thirster is down the game isn't really as fun for me. Hence the SC spam I guess to give me more nasty toys

Speaking of Tizz, I'm shocked at how crappy the LoC is in combat. Or that he's the only source of a Command Ability for the faction??

- Salvage

Khorne seems to be the best I've faced since January. When they remember all those bonuses they hit hard and fast.

 VeteranNoob wrote:
Khorne seems to be the best I've faced since January. When they remember all those bonuses they hit hard and fast.

Was that straight Khorne Daemons or Daemons + Bloodbound? The regular Daemons seem a bit underwhelming, but I know Bloodbound have a lot of buffing things and strong units.