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Zhadsnark da ripper and mek gunz

So I've seen this talked about b4 on dakka dakka but I've never spared much attention  since I didn't run zhadsnark, but now I do and I was wondering what you all think of this rule. It's called "biker boss" and it allows him to take warbikes as troops if he is your warlord, but you can't bring deffdredds, killa kanz,  and big gunz.

Now I've seen it argued that big gunz are just another way of saying "mek gunz" and thus prevents anyone from bringing the newer snazzier mekgunz to an army with zhadsnark as warlord.

Now my question to you all is does this rule apply to a unit with a completely different name. The itc addendum says nuthin about it, and I'm deeply curious to know since I plan to attend a tournament that follows itc rules, and I'm bringing a list that has warlord zhadsnark as well as mekgunz.

I personally think the old dreddmob zhadsnark rule does not apply to mek gunz. My reasoning is that besides their different names they are also fairly different from each other. Big gunz were a pre 7th unit, and had old artillery rules that utilized armour values like a pseudo vehicle. The units might have some similar guns but their war gear is vastly different. The big gun can take a runtherd  (the Mekgunz cant). The big guns have to all take the same weapon options (while the Mekgunz have much more weapon options while also being much varied with choice of what gunz to put in the unit).

While it could be argued that the mekgun is the spiritual successor of the big gun, it is pretty much a different unit all together. Now there are 2 ways to look at this, rules as written or rules as intended. 

Until fw decides to update the dreddmob to 7th edition (highly unlikely at this point since they've become a company that models sm shoulder pads) we have to finally make a decision about this for tournaments. I hope the good hard working folks at Frontline gaming can add this to their next poll to have the community put an end to this argument.

Basically, you should ask the tournament organiser. They are the only ones that can say yes or no to this.

I voted Yes, that they should count. I believe that, from a RAI perspective that Mek Gunz = Big Gunz. However, these rules come from a time when armies generally consisted of a single Detachment. HIWPI is that the restriction would apply only to your Primary Detachment and you would be free to include Mek Gunz in a separate Detachment.

How different are Mek Gunz to Big Gunz functionally? If it's the same unit with a different name then I would play it that you can't take them withZhadsnark. Otherwise you can equally invalidate swathes of FW stuff e.g. not being able to use stuff from IA1 because it's IG not AM.

Basically ask your TO.

RAI - mek gunz have replaced the big gunz unit and biker boss now refers to them.

RAW - the biker boss rule refers to a non existent unit and therefore cannot be used until updated with an errata.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
RAI - mek gunz have replaced the big gunz unit and biker boss now refers to them.

RAW - the biker boss rule refers to a non existent unit and therefore cannot be used until updated with an errata.

Agreed. RAI seems clear that Zhadsnark doesn't roll with Grots firing barely mobile gunz in his crew. He doesn't like anything that lumbers (Deff Dreads and Killa Kans) or has to be dragged forward (Big Gunz/Mek Gunz). He's all about speed! His Boyz ride Warbikes. If I were running Zhadsnark, I wouldn't take Mek Gunz to stay true to what I assume was the author's intent. Plus, if the rules are ever updated to 7th Edition, I fully expect Mek Gunz to be disallowed.

Now, having said that, these are 5th Edition rules that received a 6th Edition update. They've never been updated for 7th Edition and reference an out of date, out of print Codex: Orks. The 5th Edition rules (Imperial Armour 8) are no longer for sale. The 6th Edition update is no longer found on Forgeworld's website. I realize that a Google search will turn it up, but it has been removed from their downloads section and can't be found by navigating to Forgeworld.co.uk.

In essence, you are asking HOW to use an out of date, out of print and currently unavailable set of rules designed for a previous edition of the game. I'd first ask if I could use those rules at all. I'd expect to get a yes from most casual gamers with a Big Gunz = Mek Gunz caveat and a no from most organized events since it's not something a new player could go out and buy. Allowing out of print materials for people who bought them before they went out of print creates a class of haves vs have nots, and this is generally not good for the hobby.

I would say yes they should count as them. It's pretty much the same thing.

RAW They are good to go, RAI no, hell no, no.

With that said, seeing as Zhadsnark is a Ork warboss with only 6+ armor....feth it, let him take Mek Gunz. It won't make him any better by removing that one restriction.

You can't play this model by RAW without getting into more issues. Seriously that IA:8 update is a perfect example of outdated and broken rules, I own chapter approved issues with less conflicting rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Even the original IA8 introduces less rule conflicts then the FW update file.

 oldzoggy wrote:
You can't play this model by RAW without getting into more issues.

Just curious, but why?

Raw zhadsnark is from a codec that is no longer valid.

Big guns don't exist, they are now me k guns.

If you field Zhadsnark you shouldn't field mekgunz, you might argue RAW they are not big guns. However RAW is8 is not compatible with the current ork codec and was not updated for 7th edition.

Zhadsnark's rules are broken RAW due to various changes to 7th ed Orks for which he has not been updated, big gunz becoming mek gunz is only one problem; he also lacks the "ere we go" rule which all Orks updated for 7th now have and he also lacks the 4+ armour save that all Ork bikerz now benefit from. Using old rules for units is okay and apparently rules legal providing there isn't a newer set for them, otherwise factions that haven't had a 7th ed update yet would be "illegal" however in the specific case of Zhadsnark if you used him you would have to use him RAW for any game you couldn't get your opponent to agree to a personal interpretation of his rules. Which would mean you could use Mek Gunz with him but at the same time you can't give him the ere we go rule and 4+ save he should have if he were updated. All in all that is kind of crappy. The good news is if you only want to use him to run a biker army with no boyz & grots taxes you DON'T need him at all in 7th and he isn't even the best way to do it either, probably the worst actually. I can think of 4 basic ways to run a biker army in 7th without using Zhadsnark and all of the them are objectively better than using him too.

1. UNBOUND! Don't cry, it is rules legal and it let's you have your biker army just exactly how you want it. All it will cost you is a warlord trait BUT if you were willing to use Zhadsnark's warlord trait to get biker troops you really aren't losing anything at all by going unbound.

2. Ghazcurion Speed Freaks formations + Oddboyz formations (+other formations to taste), for a battleforged biker army. The only con here is you can't get a warboss character (though you can have unlimited bigmeks & painboyz). This isn't so bad though for a biker army as the warboss waaagh ability doesn't affect bikerz anyway, only ere we go units that can run (turboboosting isn't running).

3. Ghazcurion Speed Freaks formations + Mogroks boss boyz formation (+ other formations to taste), for a battleforged biker army with 1 warboss (you can't make him warlord with this formation but you can still give him a bike). The con here is you have to take a weirdboy as well which is awkward because you can't give him a bike. You could throw him in with some tankbustas though if you were taking them.

4. Ghazcurion speed freaks + oddboyz + CAD (+ other formations to taste), for a battle forged biker army with up to 2 warbosses one of which can be made into a warlord. The con here is that you have to pay a troop tax BUT seriously troop taxes for orks don't cost much. 2 squads of grots hits your minimun req for just 70pts. Alternatively 2 minimal boyz for 120pts. They'll have obsec and you will want something to sit on objectives anyway. Put the boyz in trukks for a little more and they are pretty fluffy for an Evil Sunz Kult of Speed army, not all boyz have da teef for a bike, for dem dey ride da loser kroozer, init mate.

There 4 ways to do a biker army without Zhadsnark and all of them objectively superior to using a 150pt obsolete character that can't reroll his charge distance like all the other boyz and only has a pathetic 6+ save.

 Btothefnrock wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
You can't play this model by RAW without getting into more issues.

Just curious, but why?

I don't believe that IA8 is fundamentally incompatible with 7th edition rules just because it isn't updated. This is total nonsense in my opinion. There are lots of old documents that would work perfectly in the 7th edition without any serious issues. They don't generate any mismatching rules and are not breaking the game, and the draft faq allows us to use oop rules so why not use them. But there are some issues with the FW IA8 update document.

On da rippa. He doesn't have mismatching rules (outside the big guns thing) but he does have some quirks.
- He can make your army illegal if you don't make him your warlord for some reason ( this could happen on accident in team battles etc).
- if you do make him your warlord he references to a unit entry that no longer exists (big guns). I know it seems to be a formality and can be fixed with a simple house rule but these sorts of things are the things that invalidate unit entries.
- He doesn't have 'ere we go this has some serious consequences when he joins a squad.
- His tank shock rules are a nightmare.

The real problem is with the rest of the document.
- The waagh rule is all over the place
- no scoring troop dreads
- Typo in the famous stompa thing referencing to the wrong stompa
- page references no longer work.
- no ere we go on all models
- mismatching point values