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Just to jump back in re: the Solitaire. I always tell my opponents who are new to Harlequins, "the stronger your army is, the stronger my army gets," then proceed to tell them how I'm more scared of their basic Tactical Squads than I am of their Chapter Master. That's simply because, to a Solitaire, there's no difference between a S5, AP- hit and a S10 AP1, Ignores Cover hit. So if their list is built on having fewer really good attacks, it's less a threat than a list built to just kill by dice throws.

^Exactly my point. In my experience the hardest counter to a well built harlequin army is the marine Gladius with razorbacks, I have only stood a chance against one once, and the game came down to a tie with me having literally two models on the board. By contrast, the stuff that relies on super elite models tends to fold to the Harlequins' mix of rules ignoring and reliance on invuln saves for basically everything. Any time I've come up against armies that revolve around one or more superheavies or deathstar units, it's been an uphill battle for my opponent.

the_scotsman wrote:
Just wanted to make note for you: Per the new FAQ, there is no longer an "implied" to-hit roll for psychic powers that don't have a specified method to hit.

They hit automatically. This is big because we have two powers like that: Laugh of Sorrows and the big beast of harlequin powers, Mirror of Minds. Shadowseers got a big buff in reliability after that ruling, making psychic shriek additionally even more beastly.

@Massaen: I consistently find the caress to be the most reliable means of doing damage with a harlequin troupe. A Harlequin with a Kiss deals 2/3 high strength AP2 HITS, a harlequin with a Caress deals 2/3 autowounds. At the very least, every troupe master with the extra attack should get a Caress, but I do tend to run one troupe with all caresses to knock out heavy stuff.

I saw that, I was going to steer away from FAQ for now because it's not set in stone yet.

 Massaen wrote:
I really like the fact people are talking about harlies - I do - and I don't want to deter you... but...

While I get the way you are looking at the troupe vs shadowseer - I think its a misguided view.

You cant compare them in a vacuum like you have - it presents a very lopsided view (plus your numbers are wrong to boot!)

How about the fact that a shadowseer (lvl2) can move into range, shriek and veil then run out of the 24" range - becoming completely immune to anything more than 24" away. Completely immune. If something gets to less than 24" the chance of him taking hits is remote until they are almost on top of him. What about his ability to engage just about any threat with just his basic gear?

The troupes as you have described them are terrible if you look at them in this context right? We both know they are not but I hope this illustrates the flaw in your presented argument.

In your double masque (6 troupe, 4 star weavers, 2 void weavers - 1000pts) plus the 14 shadow seers - again this is a bad argument. You know its a bad list so presenting it as you have is flawed. The troupes are useless, the shadow seers are ok in a single unit (or 2) but the troupes have no bite for the seers to support.

Your listed problems for harlies are also interesting...

Ignores cover? No issue with built in 5++ army wide or better
S6 wounds? No issue with 2+ LOS and 5++
receiving 10+ shots - this is an issue in your builds but my foot troupes almost never see this sort of fire levelled at them unless its on overwatch and at that point its far to late for the enemy

You say that the IC are to reliant on dice - I disagree. They are force multipliers and need to be factored in and run as such. Its why I run a seer as my warlord - consistency. I know I have 1 of 3 warlord traits and can build a list that makes use of any of them rather than hoping for one of the cool ones. It gives me the ability to run away from a unit in danger or shift the warlord trait to another unit who might be at fuller strength - the possibilities are endless!

The double masque is not an efficient way of skimmer spam - play dark elder for that!

You also seem to think Caress are the best - they aren't IMO. One or 2 per unit is enough - the Kiss is far and away the best since its the most reliable. That's the trick to harlequins - finding a way to run them with reliable results

Yeah, sorry about those numbers. Between auto correct and hovering in the dark corners of my garage over my phone... lol

Yeah I agree that list as presented is horrible, it was more for showing at least with a dbl Masque I can actually take them all not that I would.

Ignores Cover- makes alot useless which is why I bring that up. Faolchú's Blade suffers from it, dance of shadows negated, you only get 1 mirage launcher per unit...
Str6 wounds- Wounds can't always be passed off, which I've had happen more often lately.
1 str6 wound instant kills any shadowseer or death Jester if unsaved. That's at least 60+points and 2 wounds gone to 1 wound... I'd rather lose 15-43pts per
All of these "problems" individually CAN be managed (hopefully) but once they start adding to each other it only gets worse. A managed problem is still a problem.

I don't know what your facing where you rarely recieve 10+shots into a unit. I play against alot of the armies and there's plenty of guys that it's feels like they should just dump a 55gallon drum for their shooting attacks... and don't forget the 2nd 55 gallon drum because it's twinlinked.

The Shadowseer is still susceptible to the Dice even in your example if not being completely situational. His basic gear can be awesome but again situational. He's got the same 5+invul, the same pistol.
My only complaints about his Miststave are lack of any ap at all and concussion should hit the unit not model. It won't do anything against av13+ tho
I'm not arguing against his abilities and use. I take him purely for the anti flyrant.

My whole point is people are going on a whole lot of dice, setup and opponent army reliant factors with their build. I bring the basics and more of it.
A double masque is still susceptible to everything the other lists are but you can bring more and field more with more survivability off basic unit #s alone. It still brings stuff to wound ANYTHING

A kiss is also subject to invul saves. This is where the caress excells.
For 120pts- 13 possible (6 to hit) Ap2 wounds/glances AV-any
110pts- 3 str6 ap2 (6to wound instant death) can't glance av13+.


I'm really not saying this is The Best Harlequin list ever. I am saying it is the most use able in any situation (pre-dice rolling).

The Double Masque should be the 1st go to build when starting Harlequins. You have access to all of the formations and combinations just by having it. Using it gives you a standard survivability purely off unit #s alone (eggs in 1 basket type of thing)

At 1000pts you can easily modify your list( because mine in the OP is an example)

For kicks here is a version I'm planning on for competition.

+++ Eldar Double Masque (1850pts) +++

++ Eldar Craftworlds: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +
Autarch [Banshee mask, Shard of Anaris (Remnant of Glory), Shuriken pistol]

+ Troops +
Windriders [3x Windrider with twin-linked Shuriken catapult]
Windriders [3x Windrider with twin-linked Shuriken catapult]

+ Fast Attack +
Wave Serpent [Crystal Targeting Matrix, Holo-fields, Twin-linked Eldar missile launchers, Twin-linked shuriken catapults]

+ Lord of War +
Wraithknight [2x Starcannon, Two Heavy Wraithcannons]

++ Harlequins - Codex (EH Masque Detachment) ++

+ Troops +
Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]

Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]

Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]

+ Fast Attack +
Starweaver
Starweaver

+ Heavy Support +
····Voidweaver [Prismatic cannon]

++ Harlequins - Codex (EH Masque Detachment) ++

+ Troops +
Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]

Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]

Troupe
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]

+ Fast Attack +
Starweaver
Starweaver

+ Heavy Support +
····Voidweaver [Haywire cannon]

Created with BattleScribe

I'm going to throw my hat in that the basic troupe unit is functionally the best 'quins.

I also favor the Masque so that the old school run+assault tactic is alive and well. Most opponents don't appreciate how fast 'quins in general can be.

The Shadowseers, in my view, are force multipliers.

I'll be the lone dissent regarding the Solitaire. He's been golden in my game, taking everything down from ork mobs, centstarts, to Imperial Knights. The key is LOS blocking terrain and blitz no earlier than turn 3. Keep in mind, he doesn't have to destroy the unit... he has hit-n-run (which you do at your opponent's turn) and bounce around the table.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:

A kiss is also subject to invul saves. This is where the caress excells.
For 120pts- 13 possible (6 to hit) Ap2 wounds/glances AV-any
110pts- 3 str6 ap2 (6to wound instant death) can't glance av13+.

5 Models (Master plus 4 players)
All with Kiss - 120 points.
3 with Caress - 118 points

Kisses - 5 Kiss of Death attacks plus 16 standard attacks
Caress - 13 Caress attacks plus 8 standard attacks

Off the bat - yes - the kisses can not hurt AV13+ so the caress wins there.

Standard attacks (assuming FC and a higher WS vs T4) result as follows....
16 attacks - just over 5 wounds before saves
8 attacks - 2-3 wounds before saves

Your 13 caress attacks (hitting on 3+) will net just under 9 hits - 2 of which will auto wound at AP2. The rest wound as standard attacks - another 3-4 wounds before saves
The Kisses net just over 3 hits and against T4, just under 3 of them will wound at AP2

The net result is a wash - you end up with the same end result. So why take the kiss? Its reliable! Yes you COULD get more 6's with the caress but the kiss completes kills reliably.

Massaen, I still don't see why you regard the kiss as more reliable. When looking at probability, increasing the sample moves the result more towards the average, increasing reliability.

12 dice trying to roll 6's is more reliable than 3 dice trying to roll 3s then 2s. The average is more robust and the extreme positive result is much higher. The real edge that the kiss brings is in its possibility to cause instant death, which is why it makes sense to bring a full unit of them in, to increase your odds of scoring that one all important 6 to wound.

What is the general thought on embraces? You get d3 HoW hits at strength 6. Worth the 5 points? It could help against swarms. Or is it mostly garbage? Granted, I wouldn't put it on many guys (3 at the absolute most) as you'll have to get in base to base contact to get them.

 Palleus wrote:
What is the general thought on embraces? You get d3 HoW hits at strength 6. Worth the 5 points? It could help against swarms. Or is it mostly garbage? Granted, I wouldn't put it on many guys (3 at the absolute most) as you'll have to get in base to base contact to get them.

Sounds totally awesome and I'd love to use them, they just only work on the charge. So I won't risk it

For my more themed lists, I've often run a troupe with the Embrace. The only thing is that there's often so few of them left that they don't really pull their weight. I'd rather take the Kiss most of the time if I had to choose.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:

 Palleus wrote:
What is the general thought on embraces? You get d3 HoW hits at strength 6. Worth the 5 points? It could help against swarms. Or is it mostly garbage? Granted, I wouldn't put it on many guys (3 at the absolute most) as you'll have to get in base to base contact to get them.

Sounds totally awesome and I'd love to use them, they just only work on the charge. So I won't risk it

Side note: All harlies get hit and run, so potential for abuse here. Again, I'd say this is far more useful against hordes. The typical smaller, tougher, armies I face would probably be better dealt with by kisses and caresses. (which is an odd sentence if you don't know those are names for war gear )

 Palleus wrote:
What is the general thought on embraces? You get d3 HoW hits at strength 6. Worth the 5 points? It could help against swarms. Or is it mostly garbage? Granted, I wouldn't put it on many guys (3 at the absolute most) as you'll have to get in base to base contact to get them.

I almost always run one unit with kisses, one with embraces, and one with caresses.

My embrace unit is generally 3x embraces (1 on TM), 3x CCW, Crescendo on TM. They are good against Hordes, but curiously also good in challenges, as the hammer of wrath hits directly land on the model being challenged.

This has led me to experiment with the Embrace in one other context: The ultimate glass cannon troupe master loadout.

The reason this works is twofold:

-When taking an enigma of the black library, you do not replace an item of the models gear with it. You take it, so you add it to your gear. This means that the troupe master can exchange his CCW for an Embrace, then take an Enigma and add it.

-An embrace, like the kiss, is a "model equipped with this weapon" rule.

So what I've tried is a TM equipped with Cegorach's Rose and an Embrace. He's a total glass cannon and REALLY expensive for it, but he just shreds stuff in challenges.

the_scotsman wrote:


I almost always run one unit with kisses, one with embraces, and one with caresses.

My embrace unit is generally 3x embraces (1 on TM), 3x CCW, Crescendo on TM. They are good against Hordes, but curiously also good in challenges, as the hammer of wrath hits directly land on the model being challenged.

This has led me to experiment with the Embrace in one other context: The ultimate glass cannon troupe master loadout.

The reason this works is twofold:

-When taking an enigma of the black library, you do not replace an item of the models gear with it. You take it, so you add it to your gear. This means that the troupe master can exchange his CCW for an Embrace, then take an Enigma and add it.

-An embrace, like the kiss, is a "model equipped with this weapon" rule.

So what I've tried is a TM equipped with Cegorach's Rose and an Embrace. He's a total glass cannon and REALLY expensive for it, but he just shreds stuff in challenges.

Now that you put it like that, I definitely see ways to utilize it. Cheers

What's the general consensus with putting weapons on a "Troupe Leader"? Aka Troupe Master at Ws7 Bs7 4atks, PE Chaos, Crusader, Blind and Concussive Range Weapons(Crescendo!)

I run mine in 5 man groups, each with a shadowseer in the unit. Then turn one I disembark the warlord's troupe and the shadowseers from the other troupes disembark and join them. Each shadowseer rolls on a different chart for powers, meaning I have every tool I want (psychic shriek and veil of tears) with the rest being a grab bag of goodies that only increase capabilities.

Now, as for the solitaire, I run mine with the rose as well, but I use cegorach's revenge to give it the reroll of ones on saves. The warlord troupe master also has the starmist raiment to soak damage for his unit.

My bikes each have the haywire blasters and one has the zephyrglaive. That way they fill in whatever roll I need while objective grabbing all day.

This setup gives me a pseudo deathstars with 8 bodies running all over the place and with the three seers at str6 fleshbane on the charge they threaten anything besides the heaviest of vehicles.

The only allies I add normally are two nightwing interceptors in the formation from doom of mymeara. That gives me 12 shuriken cannons and 4 brightlances to take down flyers and provide ground support. For 2000 point games it becomes a masque detachment, hero's path, the flyer formation, and I fill in the extra slots of elites with extra death jesters.

That gives extremely msu and with them running around individually they can pick a unit one at a time until they score a kill. Then the next moves onto another target. Leadership tricks may be hard to pull off, but if there are 4-6 different units all being affected by it I can be pretty sure I will control someone's movement each turn.

That gives me a huge advantage with an army as fragile as the harlis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to take full advantage of their hit and run shenanigans, split off independent characters before the charge.

The shadowseer will not lose capability due to fleshbane, so leave her there and run the rest away. You may be sacrificing a seer, but the troupe will get another charge and possibly get no overwatch. Used this against a grey knight termies squad with attached librarians.

Just kept swinging in and out sacrificing a seer or death jester every turn but my troupe was able to get more mileage out of their carress and embrace rules.

Thought I'd throw my two cents in here after playing about 5 or so 1850pt games recently with harlies.

First, I like most people love the idea of the solitaire, but I came to the sad conclusion that he's probably not worth the points at least when you can get a ml2 shadowseer for half the points. Overall he is still pretty solid, but I think he might a bit too match up dependent.

My current list is a maxed out masque detachment with 3x12 troupe squads all with caresses (I know it sounds overkill, but I was playing against a lot of deathstars lol), 2 skyweavers, 1 voidweaver, and 7 shadowseers ml2 who are spread out over the 3 squads. The whole list revolves around getting invisibility for every squad which is pretty good since you get 14 rolls on the table for it. Assuming you do so you basically can just run around and mulch everything and or psychic shriek stuff since you get the -2 ld with the shadowseer who has the mask. I had pretty good success with it thus far even against a grey knights list that had like 20 warp charges and re-rolls of 1 for deny the witch. Anyways just wanted to throw that out to you guys

the_scotsman wrote:
Massaen, I still don't see why you regard the kiss as more reliable. When looking at probability, increasing the sample moves the result more towards the average, increasing reliability.

12 dice trying to roll 6's is more reliable than 3 dice trying to roll 3s then 2s. The average is more robust and the extreme positive result is much higher. The real edge that the kiss brings is in its possibility to cause instant death, which is why it makes sense to bring a full unit of them in, to increase your odds of scoring that one all important 6 to wound.

Because you have a 16% chance for an ap2 wound vs a 55% chance with the kiss. Yes - there is a very low chance of you scoring more auto wounds but the odds of the kisses causing more wounds reliably are much higher. As I showed above - the point for point results are a wash based on math hammer. The thing is the kisses have a much flatter curve of results - making it more reliable.

I don't rate embraces for a few reasons...

1. Must make base contact for them to work
2. only work on the charge
3. no ap value on the HoW
4. hit and run recharges are mitigated by the overwatch issue

Sure - adding 1-2 in a squad might have a place but again, its situational at best.

But...they don't have a flatter curve. They have a sharper curve. In your example of 3 kisses vs 2 caresses, the kisses are at an average of 1.6 in the optimal situation (enemy T<6, enemy WS < 5) but you have an appreciable chance (>1/3) that two of your attacks will fail because your sample is only 3 dice.

The caresses are far more consistent. They would be a 16% chance as you say if they only got to roll for the 6 on one die... but they don't. Each one has a sample of 4, and operates totally independent of opponents weapon skill or toughness.

My example was 3 caress vs 5 kiss.

And anything other than a 6 for the caress results in the same result as the rest of the attacks from a kiss user.

At its core, 4 attacks each...

4 attacks, hitting on 3's (6's auto wound ap2) vs 3 attacks hitting on 3's PLUS 1 attack hitting on 3's which is S6, AP2.

So while the potential MAX damage is better with the caress, the kiss offers a literal 50%+ chance to inflict a wound at S6 AP2 on a T4 or less target.

The caress is 16% per attack independent of the other attacks (ie not cumulative) for the same effect that the kiss gives 50% of the time on its single attack.

Does that make sense?

I dig the math.

At the end of the day tho I choose the caress for simplicity.
It allows me to throw the most at the hardest things to kill.

I've had the rare successful Instant Death's from the kiss, which is cool. I've unfortunately also had them go on eternal warriors as well.

You can hit the jackpot and not get paid a dime. That's one of the biggest issues with Harlequins.

This is spot on Blitzen!

 Massaen wrote:
This is spot on Blitzen!

Thanks, it's something the followers of Cegorach can appreciate lol.

The downside being this is what we are suppose to do to a battle (bring that random element that denies even when you succeed) that leaves our opponent dumbstruck.... not how our individual abilities should work every time we swing a sword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makes the game fun sometimes tho... I've had a few really bad games tho. Hurts to remove over 900pts of Quinns at the top of round1

 Massaen wrote:
My example was 3 caress vs 5 kiss.

And anything other than a 6 for the caress results in the same result as the rest of the attacks from a kiss user.

At its core, 4 attacks each...

4 attacks, hitting on 3's (6's auto wound ap2) vs 3 attacks hitting on 3's PLUS 1 attack hitting on 3's which is S6, AP2.

So while the potential MAX damage is better with the caress, the kiss offers a literal 50%+ chance to inflict a wound at S6 AP2 on a T4 or less target.

The caress is 16% per attack independent of the other attacks (ie not cumulative) for the same effect that the kiss gives 50% of the time on its single attack.

Does that make sense?

Yes. Giving you a total chance to score ONE auto wound with a Caress of 64% (16x4). Optimum situation (t4 or less ws4 or less) of 55%.

Due to its lower cost, point for point the kiss outperforms the Caress when it's in its optimum niche. However as soon as you move one die shift away (either in toughness or weapon skill) the Caress is better for the points because the ap2 wounds don't depend on that at all.

So against specifically T4 or less WS4 or less models the kiss is more points efficient. That's why I run one squad of them, and one squad of caresses, so that I'm not forced into using kisses against targets they're not efficient against.

^this


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is also my arguement for the double masque as it allows me to get more of them into CC with those hateful units that need some caressing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do those stack up with reroll to hit or to wound as well?

You can't simply multiply the 16% chance by 4 as each result is independent of the others...

On a side note per FAQ, the kiss of Death now has Caress Special rule if used against vehicles.

Huh? What I can see basically says you still get to roll for 6's with the caress against immobile vehicles and similar

 Massaen wrote:
You can't simply multiply the 16% chance by 4 as each result is independent of the others...

Yes, you can. 66% is your chance of rolling at least 1 6 with 4 dice. 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6. Additionally, increasing the sample in any probability equation increases the trend towards the average. That's what makes them more reliable.

Blitzen I'm not sure where you're seeing that. Can you copy/paste the question?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
You can't simply multiply the 16% chance by 4 as each result is independent of the others...

Yes, you can. 66% is your chance of rolling at least 1 6 with 4 dice. 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6. Additionally, increasing the sample in any probability equation increases the trend towards the average. That's what makes them more reliable.

Blitzen I'm not sure where you're seeing that. Can you copy/paste the question?

No - you can't.

Rolling a 1 on the first dice does not prohibit the chance of rolling it on the second dice - nor does it increase the chance of rolling a 6 on any other dice.

Throw a dice six times - are you certain to get at least one six?

The mean number of sixes in four throws is indeed 2/3 but there are combinations with 2,3 or 4 sixes, and these reduce the number with just one six (apply the same argument to six throws, where it is more intuitive).

If you get no sixes in four throws, there are 5 possibilities for each throw, and therefore 5 to the power of 4 =625 possibilities with no six out of the 6 to the power of 4 =1296 possibilities in total. So you get the probability by taking the 1296−625=671 possibilities which must include at least one six, out of the 1296 possibilities altogether. Or just over 50%

Regardless, I am not going to argue further. If you prefer the caress - Great! My experience tells me to use the Kiss more often and that's ok as well.

the_scotsman wrote:


Blitzen I'm not sure where you're seeing that. Can you copy/paste the question?

Q: Can the Solitaire use both the Harlequin’s caress and the Harlequin’s kiss (or Cegorach’s Rose) to benefit from the Caress of Death and Kiss of Death rules in the same Fight sub-phase?

A: Yes. The Kiss of Death rule applies to a model equipped with a Harlequin’s kiss (or Cegorach's Rose), even if the model is not attacking with that weapon. This means that a Solitaire can attack with their Harlequin’s caress, with +1 Attack for having two close combat weapons, and one of those attacks will have the Kiss of Death rule. Specifically, that attack will be resolved at Strength 6 AP2. if the Wound roll for that attack is a 6, the attack gains the Instant Death special rule. If the Kiss of Death attack is used against a vehicle, it will benefit from the Caress of Death special rule if the To Hit roll is a 6.

Yes, but the only model who will have a kiss and caress is the Solitaire. That faq is specific for his weapons, sadly.