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MarsNZ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

you could always try posting 15000 times on dakka about how your army is the worst since the game was released

I have never claimed that, but I have pointed out several times to certain people that the Guard are in a gak position right now with 3rd edition styled Infantry and 3rd/5th edition styled Tanks.

Jaxler wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Pretty much all post-Decurion codexes need nerfing in one way or another. The power creep is now getting stupid with things like Imperial Knights, Riptides, Baneblades and Wraithknights becoming common place.
With all this the common soldier, once the backbone of every faction, is now being left in the dirt, only taken when they are needed for a 'bound' formation where they are considered a "Troop tax".

This is getting stupid. What happened to the days where a single Leman Russ was a threat? The days where a Terminator unit could force a breach? Te days where a model with the Infantry removing firepower of a Wyvern was considered Brokenly powerful and even a battery or mortars could give your opponent something to think about?
We need to stop this stupid power creep. It needs to end now, before things get blown out of all proportion.

I can field six Leman Russ hulls plus a Shadowsword in a 2K game and that is considered weak these days. It shouldnt be. Six Leman Russ hulls alone should be considered cheesey powergaming and the inclusion of a Shadowsword? That thing should only see the tabletop for apocalypse games, if at all.

Really? The creep is getting crazy with imperial Knights riptides and Baneblades? I think big threats are nice and force you to be prepared for the threat of a super sturdy weapon platform. You do realize the riptide came out in 6th Ed, right? Perhaps you need to get out of 5th instead of expecting the game to go back to 5th.

The point<--------------------- ----->You

My point is that with the advent of all these big new super killy things with insane endurance and obscene levels of firepower, the game has moved away from the old ways where Infantry where the bread and butter. Right now, outside of one or two armies, the basic Infantry are seen as a tax as they are often incapable of dealing with most of the current threats that are seen o the table top.
In the meantime other units have also been adversely affected by this power bloom. Regular tanks are now less than pointless. Hordes of Infantry die like no tomorrow. Weapons that used to be feared such as Heavy Mortars, Lascannons, Battlecannons and the like are now laughable in their effect.
Back in the day the most powerful thing you could expect to see was a Tank. And taking three tanks was considered cheesey spamming. these days you can have entire armies made up of super heavy walkers, Baneblade chassis are common place and Titans can fight in regular games.
And after all this the regular infantry man is expected to survive and be useful? How?

there was a place for these big killy units, outside of Apocalypse that is. It was called Epic, and it allowed you to have these big armies of super heavy tanks and walkers and field entire Titan maniples without breaking the power scale. It was fun and fast paced.
Sadly, GW wanted all those power units in regular 40K and now look where we are.

tneva82 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

When was that? Because I've been playing since 1993 and they've never been good. At least, the loyalist ones.

You didn't think they were good when even against lascannon you have almost 30% chance of surviving? And any -1 -2 shot they are laughing off. Plasma gun without max power? Don't care much. 5+ on 2d6 is very good odds. Autocannons are only marginally scarier. Heavy bolter...Naah.

And assault cannon meanwhile was sustained fire 3D goodyness with -3 to saves.

No, I didn't. Because they weren't. The assault cannon was actually the jam cannon. Kraks, lascannon, Eldar shuriken weaponry, and tyranids all made a mess of them. That's off the top of my head. And they were hyper expensive. And they died quite a bit to -2 armor save weapons. Their offensive output was still bad and there were a lot of ways to easily deal with them.

5+ on 2D6 is the exact odds they have right and they still get scrubbed down by wound spam. And their guns could jam.

Martel732 wrote:
No, I didn't. Because they weren't. The assault cannon was actually the jam cannon. Kraks, lascannon, Eldar shuriken weaponry, and tyranids all made a mess of them. That's off the top of my head. And they were hyper expensive. And they died quite a bit to -2 armor save weapons. Their offensive output was still bad and there were a lot of ways to easily deal with them.

5+ on 2d6 is pretty damn survivable.

But then again...You are one who claims characters in 2nd ed munched through entire units like hot knife butter when in reality they are killing more like one model per player turn when game is 8 player turn at most.

Hah. Characters in h2h aren't scary. They can't kill enough guys to make up their points.

Hard to take you for face value. Doubtful you really ever player 2nd ed properly.

tneva82 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I didn't. Because they weren't. The assault cannon was actually the jam cannon. Kraks, lascannon, Eldar shuriken weaponry, and tyranids all made a mess of them. That's off the top of my head. And they were hyper expensive. And they died quite a bit to -2 armor save weapons. Their offensive output was still bad and there were a lot of ways to easily deal with them.

5+ on 2d6 is pretty damn survivable.

But then again...You are one who claims characters in 2nd ed munched through entire units like hot knife butter when in reality they are killing more like one model per player turn when game is 8 player turn at most.

Hah. Characters in h2h aren't scary. They can't kill enough guys to make up their points.

Hard to take you for face value. Doubtful you really ever player 2nd ed properly.

Characters? They were valuable if you got to the right target. The real horrors were hand to hand troops like genestealers and very deadly shooting. If you think that terminators were effective, you probably weren't playing it "properly". Again, I was with people fielding the nastiest stuff they could think of. Pulsa rokkit spam, anyone? 60 metal hormagaunts that always moved fast and you had to shoot first because they were closest. Entire armies of sonic blasters and reaper autocannons. Eldar has instant death weapons that stacked to reduce armor save and a ton of -3 armor save shots. Your terminators won't last long against that.

Martel732 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, I didn't. Because they weren't. The assault cannon was actually the jam cannon. Kraks, lascannon, Eldar shuriken weaponry, and tyranids all made a mess of them. That's off the top of my head. And they were hyper expensive. And they died quite a bit to -2 armor save weapons. Their offensive output was still bad and there were a lot of ways to easily deal with them.

5+ on 2d6 is pretty damn survivable.

But then again...You are one who claims characters in 2nd ed munched through entire units like hot knife butter when in reality they are killing more like one model per player turn when game is 8 player turn at most.

Hah. Characters in h2h aren't scary. They can't kill enough guys to make up their points.

Hard to take you for face value. Doubtful you really ever player 2nd ed properly.

Characters? They were valuable if you got to the right target. The real horrors were hand to hand troops like genestealers and very deadly shooting. If you think that terminators were effective, you probably weren't playing it "properly". Again, I was with people fielding the nastiest stuff they could think of. Pulsa rokkit spam, anyone? 60 metal hormagaunts that always moved fast and you had to shoot first because they were closest. Entire armies of sonic blasters and reaper autocannons.

Who lets characters get to another expensive character unless you can kill it? Why take expensive character in the first place when said character strugles to kill anything worthwhile...

Really your claims are so misguided that it's extremely hard to take you for face value. Claiming 2nd ed balance was worse than 7th that has worst balance ever. Yes 2nd ed could have 1 turn wipes. 7th ed a) has lot more ways to do that b) has lot higher chance of archieving that.

In 7th ed you can easily have units that simply don't die without specialized tool(often with weapon D requirement). In 2nd ed nothing is invulnerable. Everything can be killed and doesn't even neccessarily require special tool. There isn't target that even something as trivial as lascannon cannot one shot(well okay the nurgle daemon prince spawn isn't possible to one shot. Too many wounds).

I dunno. 2nd ed had terminator chaos lords with a power field. That's pretty close.

What part did I get wrong? Was hormagaunt spam not broken? Were sonic blasters and reaper autocannons not broken? Was the shuriken cannon clocking in at 2 sus fire dice and -3 armor save not broken?

Characters were frequently used to throw the almighty vortex grenade. Hand to hand was a bit of a side show for them.

The gap between loyalist marines and chaos marines was simply huge. Maybe no one in your group ever figured out how huge that gap was. I haven't seen as many 1st turn wipes as 2nd ed had. Not even in 7th. It takes an average of 3 turns for the most brutal eldar lists to do that usually. The combination of low model and select weapons giving -3 or better armor save made marines not viable on the defensive end.