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I'm creating a new Dark Angels army (1000 pts), more specifically a Ravenwing based army, and I was wondering if it was actually any good:

I'm creating this in 6th edition by the way.

Sammael

Ravenwing Dark Talon

Ravenwing Attack Squad x4
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Darkshroud
Assault Cannon

Ravenwing Command Squad
Ravenwing Grenade Launcher, Champion, Ravenwing Company Banner

My plan would generally be to utilize the Ravenwing company banner and constantly hit and run, while supporting them with the Ravenwing Darkshroud's Assault Cannon and abilities.

Thanks

It's cool, but if you have a flyer in there you have to start everything in reserve and will thus auto-lose, unless you're going unbound. Also, mixing the special weapons on a bike squad is generally considered to be a bad idea.

You want grav, not plasma on your bike squad. Also, this list just doesn't seem to do much - the low model count means that every model you lose is gonna hurt.

My advice is to dump Sammael and the Dark Talon, add three more Black Knights to the Command Squad, and add a Librarian on a bike to join that squad with the Mace of Redemption. Keep the Darkshroud close to both bike units for the +2 Jink. Ravenwing Attack Squadrons are an excellent little formation that can handle almost anything, especially with two grav guns and a Landspeeder Typhoon in the unit.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
It's cool, but if you have a flyer in there you have to start everything in reserve and will thus auto-lose, unless you're going unbound. Also, mixing the special weapons on a bike squad is generally considered to be a bad idea.

Do people still believe this?

This might change replies, though it might not, but I am playing with my friends in 6th edition. Sorry for not explaining this in the original post, I forgot to put that in. Thanks for the comments though, I will take those into consideration.

 raiden wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
It's cool, but if you have a flyer in there you have to start everything in reserve and will thus auto-lose, unless you're going unbound. Also, mixing the special weapons on a bike squad is generally considered to be a bad idea.

Do people still believe this?

Well that's what GW faqed it to be.

 raiden wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
It's cool, but if you have a flyer in there you have to start everything in reserve and will thus auto-lose, unless you're going unbound. Also, mixing the special weapons on a bike squad is generally considered to be a bad idea.

Do people still believe this?

People who follow the rules believe it.

Also, mixing the special weapons on a bike squad is generally considered to be a bad idea.

Why is it considered a poor idea?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would it be a valid strategy to constantly hit and run, utilizing the Ravenwing Company Banner to automatically pass the initiative test, the Rift cannon on the Storm Talon to lower the WS and BS of the unit that is being assaulted to 1, and the Ravenwing Grenade Launcher's Rad shells to reduce the Toughness of the unit by one, or would my army be easily shredded to bits?

If your running Sammy with the command squad I'd say the banner is a waste of points. You have to roll a 5 or less to pass, so those banner points could be better spent.

On what? Its only 15 pts.

 wlnnell wrote:
Why is it considered a poor idea?

A unit can only shoot at a single target - this means that having weapons with drastically different preferred targets results in wasted firepower - consider a devastator squad with two lascannons and two heavy bolters (as an extreme example), it gives you good versatility (you can shoot at either infantry or heavy vehicles and still do damage) but low efficiency (i.e. you're wasting half the shots).

This is less of an issue this case - both flamers and plasma want to target infantry most of the time, and having two flamers in a single squad has a (small) chance of roasting all possible targets in range, causing the wounds to vanish. The alternative would be running 2 units with 2 plasma and 2 units with 2 flamers, meaning the plasma can aim at terminator-equivalent units and the flamers can roast guardsmen-equivalent units.

 wlnnell wrote:
On what? Its only 15 pts.

Melta bombs or power weapons. Both much more useful than the banner.

I think Sammael is too expensive for a 1000 points list. I wouldn't run a Command Squad without the Apothecary. Ditto what an above poster said about the flyer making you lose automatically.

Don't use the 6th Ed codex.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Don't use the 6th Ed codex.

Why not? I think OP said his group play 6th anyway so there's little choice.

My advice, drop sammael, grab a lib on a bike, get some more black knights in that command squad, that will help a lot, you want to ab use the hell outta the 3+ rerolable jink also get an apothecary so that way all you need to do is roll a 5 in 3 rolls to save a model


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also take grab, not plasma, it's 25 points for each raven wing bike, 15 for a plasma gun, for the same price you can get a black knight with twin linked plasma and a better save.

I've revamped the army (still in 6th edition):

Librarian
-Bike, Mastery Lv. 2

Ravenwing Command Squad
-Extra Biker, Apothecary, Champion, Standard of Destruction

Tactical Squad
-Rhino

Tactical Squad
-Rhino

Ravenwing Darkshroud

Ravenwing Attack Squad
-Flamer

Ravenwing Attack Squad
-Meltagun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
-Plasma Gun

Scout Squad
-Sniper Rifles

I don't know if this is an improvement on the other list or if it is worse...

Champion seems like a waste. The blade of caliban kills your initiative but you're stuck with ap3. I'd rather gamble with the corvus hammer and rending.

Should I use those 5 pts to give my Librarian Melta Bombs?

May as well.

Personally I would have stuck with Sammael rather than the scouts and tacticals as well as it fits the theme of Ravenwing better but that's me.

I was told above that for 1000 pts he would be too expensive and divert points that could be otherwise used for other things. I do like the whole Bikes as troops thing but my previous army did have very few models. I don't know, I'm still undecided which I like more.

The issue is that with the tacticals and scouts you lose about the same amount of points and they don't seem to do much. Sammael has an ap2 weapon and plasma cannon and eternal warrior makes him alright for challenges plus he makes the Bikes troops so they can also be fast objective grabbers.

The troops make the opponent split their fire between more units but they end up being slower and arguably less durable as a rhino is easier to kill than a bike squad with Darkshroud support.

Should I scrap the librarian and go back to the list I originally had (possibly without the dark talon though)?

Personally I would do that and replace the Dark Talon with more Bikes.

Thanks, I'll try that and see how it works out, should I then use some of the point from the Dark Talon to exchange the Standard of the Ravenwing for the Standard of Destruction?

That sounds good to me.

Which list would work better in battle, the first or the last?

Also, what should my strategy be for the bikes? Should I have the use hit and run or should I use them for their bolters?

Personally again, if you are going for raven wing I would not even take the troops, more bikes.

If you are trying to make a very competitive list, get rid of the tac and take more bikes..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the bikes your strat should be hit and run, use the grav guns to your advantage and waste anything that's got a 2+. If you are running the strike force the first turn is where you really get to shine, can move what 2 feet IIRC, with jink and no penalty to shooting on your turn.

Soooo my current army is:

Sammael

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Attack Bike, Flamer

Ravenwing Darkshroud

Ravenwing Command Squad
Ravenwing Grenade Launcher, Champion, Banner of Destruction

Should I scrap the attack bike and champion for an apothecary in the command squad?

 wlnnell wrote:
Soooo my current army is:

Sammael

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Flamer, Plasma Gun

Ravenwing Attack Squad
Attack Bike, Flamer

Ravenwing Darkshroud

Ravenwing Command Squad
Ravenwing Grenade Launcher, Champion, Banner of Destruction

Should I scrap the attack bike and champion for an apothecary in the command squad?

personally i would, that 5+ feel no pain ontop of 3+ rerollable jinks. Also, take grav over plasma. You get more shots with the grav gun, and a better chance of wounding harder targets, + you dont need to worry about gets hot. again, a raven wing bike + a plasma costs 40 points. If you want plasma that bad, drop a bike squad and use those points to get more black knights. which gets you better close combat, and twin linked plasma guns.