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I'll say the same thing I've been saying for years now: If you want a more positive environment for discussion, the solution is to engage in more positive discussion. You don't have to argue with someone you see as being relentlessly negative... just focus on the positives in the discussion and ignore the rest. If the negative comments get spammy then they can be reported, but otherwise just let people have their opinions and get on with discussing the shiny stuff.
That doesn't help when someone crashes into a thread with ill-articulated but incredibly loud opinions (or outright trolling), because all it takes is one responder to turn the thread into a shouting match and drive out anyone who actually wants to discuss the subject because even if you do have something positive to say, holy crap who wants to try to make themselves heard over that?
I've seen a handful of posters who did this repeatedly and every time, rather than a targeted ban, the entire thread got locked for being "heated", with apparently no attention being paid to who crashed into it with the petrol can and box of matches.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Aye, topics do sometimes have the feel of an entire park being closed due to two people coming in and having a fight on the swing set.
I'm very rarely affected due to my aversion of various subjects, but I see it happen, and it's sad for the other 3/4 of participants that weren't getting their egos ruffled.
However the alternative is... What, realistically? I can't think of answers that wouldn't be an immense time sink for moderation.
There's a distinct delineation between two people falling out about something they feel strongly about and someone who's primary motivation is to make mischief.
The first is an inevitable consequence of throwing all sorts of ages, cultures and perspectives into the same environment, the fact that it doesn't happen on an hourly basis is testament to the efforts of the mod team and the generally good attitude most Dakka users bring to the site.
The second is something that's incredibly difficult to combat. You ban a user on a website that offers free registration? 2 minutes later they're back with a new name. You block the IP? VPNs are trivial to set up and I know for a fact that one disruptive user posted exclusively from their local library on a public network.
If someone is determined to disrupt, they will. The only way to combat them is ignore them til they go away.
That said, it seems some people's definition of toxic is "people who posses strong opinions that differ from mine" which simply isn't the case.
Besides, history is littered with people who attracted massive amounts of criticism for taking contrary or radical opinions, all I'd say is if you've arrived at your view sincerely (and aren't just adopting a contrary view to generate controversy - an offence that happens all too often IMO and should be rewarded with a hefty smack with the ban hammer to the face should a user be shown to be doing so) then stand by them, if you're right you'll be vindicated, but always retain the possibility that you're wrong.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
You see that attitude is why I haven't ever played malifaux up till now and even though I enjoyed the demo game two weeks back the attitude of the malifaux players at my Uni wargaming club have tainted the system for me. Every time I or others tried to start something for 40k, a campaign, a big game, a league or a TOMG style project we got reams of abuse both on the board the facebook group and in meetings. Abuse for still giving money to GW, abuse for enjoying the game, accusations that we weren't good enough players and painters to compete with them on a small skirmish level and relies on lazy techniques and cheap 'unbalanced rules' to win games rather than skill all in aid of proving they and their chosen system was better and if someone dared criticise or comment negatively on their holy of holies they'd attempt to bully ypu into apologising. I commented that I wasn't keen on the suits mechanic as an ability trigger because it makes it too inconsistent to plan tactics on and you'd think id walked into their flat and done something unspeakable to their favourite childhood plushie from the reaction.
I have run into that with some people. I have no idea why, though. If you dare speak against the game system/whatever they proselytize, then you are a heathen and should be shunned, stoned, or both!
"Dude, there is plenty of room in the world for people that like Cherry Coke and people that like Bourbon."
Crimson Devil wrote: Do you guys not use the Alert a Mod button? Works most of the time for me.
Anytime someone has a different opinion than me on a subject, I hit the yellow triangle of friendship. I don't cotton to contrarian-ism!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/18 15:01:22
I know of at least one poster who on one occasion started arguing with me when I said I agreed with him...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Huron black heart wrote: I read the first page and can't be bothered with the rest because the first few replies have actually proved the op's opinion to be correct.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, did my response also prove the op's opinion correct?
Not really. Other people, myself included, have the opinion that there have ALWAYS been negative/toxic people in the gaming industry.
Go back and look at Decipher's Star Wars forums from 1997-2000. Full of a-holes. Self included!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/19 13:05:41
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I was just musing to myself how much more peaceful and less aggressive Dakka was these days, it was certainly a lot more vitriolic, to me anyway, back in the days when I first joined. I have also been told that it was far more like The Old West before I came aboard.
The noise vs signal is much higher now though, can't be helped I guess with the growth of the forum.
It is calmer. I miss Mauleed and his inciteful if brutal comments.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It's not like it used to be. Where is the new Gwar!? Where is our Golden Eyed Scout?
OT, I think it's a matter of perspective. You can find the positive if you look for it - and what may be positive for one person (for example, strong debate) might look negative (i.e. as a shouting match) to another. Overall, it's peaks and troughs; there are people in this thread that were here long before I was (and I'm no summer child 'round these parts).
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
Thebiggesthat wrote: You have the same posters coming into threads to moan and backslap each other, and it goes unmodded in the most part. All that then happens is that someone snaps and says something, and they are punished.
Here's the thing: Moderation is intended to keep the forums civil and more or less on-topic. It's not the job of the moderators to enforce a positive attitude. The moment we start censoring people for having any given opinion on a topic, the forum becomes completely useless as a venue for discussion and just becomes an echo chamber. Or, in other words, pretty much exactly the sort of thing that people complain about with various companies' 'official' forums...
I'll say the same thing I've been saying for years now: If you want a more positive environment for discussion, the solution is to engage in more positive discussion. You don't have to argue with someone you see as being relentlessly negative... just focus on the positives in the discussion and ignore the rest. If the negative comments get spammy then they can be reported, but otherwise just let people have their opinions and get on with discussing the shiny stuff.
A forum is a community of people with varying opinions, and the tone of that community is shaped by the way those people choose to present themselves. That works both ways... A positive community is that way not because negative opinions are censored but because people choose to build a positive community.
I also think some self reflection is needed, are those people that constantly accusing the forum of negativity, not focusing on it themselves? If you really have an issue with some posters that according to you are poisoning the well, than use the ignore button. Don't let negative comments about your favorite faction/model/army/game system affect you, there are enough posters here that open to other views while others are dogmatic in their views.
I find some peoples fanatic views hilarious, go to the off-topic political or gun topics then hilarity ensues!
Become a Dudist,
And if something upsets you well then;
Elemental wrote: ... because all it takes is one responder to turn the thread into a shouting match ...
No, that requires at least two people. A 'shouting match' tends to not last very long if there's nobody shouting back.
Yeah, that's why I said "responder", as in someone who takes the bait.
There's a current thread in the 40K general discussion thread which is a good example of how a few people can drag threads into the abyss. It starts off as a discussion, then the second half is a repeat of several previous derailed threads, with the same people jumping back into their established roles like they're taking the stage on the anniversary tour of a musical. And as it goes on, the posts from other people actually discussing the topic decrease.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Lots of nostalgic feelings reading the last few pages of this thread. MGS - seems a good as time as any to say I'm glad you're still around. The same goes for any number of long-time users, like HBMC, BrookM, Melissia, Ahtman, I could go on and on and still miss people who, whether we disagree or not, I would really miss if they stopped posting. Cheers to you guys!
Never thought I would hit ignore but a couple got it.
The mean strong opinions based more on bluster is like folding a map wrong in front of me: best I not see it.
I am a better person then.
I dislike also doing nothing, I feel some level of activism is necessary.
It would take something "special" to hit the mod button however.
I may get over myself in that regard soon enough.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
kronk wrote: I saw a guy wearing a jersey that said Green Blow Fly (I think) at Adepticon at one of the tournaments a few years ago.
Edit: those guys, even GWAR were before my time. My first few years here, I was more of a painting hobbyist than player, or playa, as it were...
Gwar was here during your time Kronk. He mostly trolled YMTC.
@thread, the ignore button makes Dakka a better place. Actually it's down right pleasant. Unfortunately my ignore list is long.
I recall another forum I used to frequent that would tell you how many members had you on ignore, not who they were specifically though. After it was implemented, a lot of people had a moment of self reflection, and there did seem to be more balanced responses. For a while, anyway.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
