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 jah-joshua wrote:
like Dark Traveler said, i come here to talk about my passion for the hobby, not get in an internet gunfight...
i have really, really been put off posting here since February, because posts about what i like are met with personal attacks time and time again...
it takes any enjoyment out of posting...
even reading posts has become too much, most of the time...

i never noticed so much vitriol in the past...
i've been a member for ten years, and in my experience, Dakka has never been worse than it is now...
i am not here to win a debate, but to have a nice conversation among a global community that enjoys painting toy soldiers...
having to argue every single point of minutia is so tiring, i would rather just not bother...
it is sad really...
after ten years of enjoyment, i am on the brink of just walking away from here...

as a regular on B&C, CMON, and WAMP, i have to say that i have never had any negative experiences on those sites, but on here, the negative outweighs the positive by a large margin over the last year...

funny enough, in person, every Dakka member that i have met have been wonderful to hang out and chat with...
almost as if the anonymity of the internet engenders a lot of trash talking that people wouldn't dare engage in face to face...
it has been great to meet up outside of the forums, and act like actual decent human beings

cheers
jah

I've noticed that your posts have a tendency to come across as being "Well, I like it, so there is no point in discussing it". Then, because you replied to other posts, the posters try to reply to you in defence of their positions. You reply again with a comment along the lines of "Your point is irrelevant because I like it". This continues until someone decides that since all of your points are just "I like it", the only appropriate response is to attack you, personally.

Also, your posts look like you are attempting to write free-form poetry. And nobody likes free-form poetry.

I agree I have witnessed "Jah" getting run at for his liking and being content with GW's product.

What the people forget is he spends all his time assembling and painting these models for customers of his.

He is not trying to build an army and the cost of the miniatures are not his personal expense.
Hard to find much wrong with just painting what you are used to that fits together rather well and has a good common esthetic.

The rest of us that is concerned with rules, expense and quantity of models needed to play: that is a whole different viewpoint.

Also when people are used to a certain level of service we tend to feel entitled to it forever.
GW is a much different animal now than before: better models but service or customer engagement is much less.

Sometimes when we are feeling hard done by, all we want is to hear is the sympathy, not a contrary opinion.
I keep forgetting we are among "friends" and all you get is "Awwww look at the poor baby!"

@CrazyCarnifex: sorry to hear that you think my posts read like i'm saying, "Well, I like it, so there is no point in discussing it."
nothing could be further from the truth...
saying "i disagree" is not the same as saying, "Your point is irrelevant because I like it."
i don't want anyone to feel that their perspective is not being listened to...

i hope that i actually point out what it is i like, and why...
i'm not trying to be dismissive...

hahahahaha, you are right about the free-form poetry...
i made a good living as a poet in the 90's, when "poetry slams" where hot, and where even a regular thing on MTV...
i guess the writing style stuck :(
good observation!!!

@Talizvar: i get why you would think that i don't buy my own minis, since i rarely find time to paint them...
the reality is that i buy about 9 minis for every 1 that i'm hired to paint...
collecting minis is my hobby, but painting is my job...
i am very passionate about my hobby, and like to reward what i consider to be great sculpting...

you are quite correct, however, about the point you make with me not having to stress rules, or worry about the cost of an entire army...
that is not to say that i don't own enough minis to build a few armies...
i used to buy the GW box armies just for the limited edition mini, so i have way more than i should

the main thing, is that my perspective is different because i have spent a over decade working in the industry...
i do feel engaged by GW, because i talk to the studio guys all the time...
i am happy to support these guys, and any other studio that i think does good work...

cheers
jah

@jah-joshua
If you are happy painting and collecting fair enough.I am sure you believe you get value for money from GW.
However, I do not think you are typical of the majority of the available customer base.

If you were then GW would not have to keep increasing prices over the rate of inflation to off set falling sales volumes.

This is what I really can not understand,why does GW write rules for people who do not play the game or do not care about the rules?

If GW wrote excellent rules but just sold wire frames and modelling clay , for the customers to sculpt the minatures themselves.
And still charged the same for the 'sort it out yourself minatures' as high quality resin minatures from other companies.

Perhaps you 'collector types' could understand the current 'discontent' lots of 'the gamer types' have with GW s current approach .

*

If a guy likes Fuji Apples, why the feth would he care about anyone telling him that Gala Apples are cheaper/better?

I haven't seen jah be a jerk to anyone, so more power to him.



However, I can now only imagine him with a silly mustache and a bowler hat, sipping a Moscow Mule (current trendy drink) while you sling your Miniature Related poetry.

I think the war some other forums 'seem' nicer is that, or at least this was true a few years ago, they sort of doubled down on supporting GW and 40k. There was then a significant exodus those who had different opinions who found themselves at dakka. Someone mentioned other forums being an echo chamber and that is precisely that I think. Dakka has grown now to the point where there are truly diverse opinions and many people. Sometimes those people with very diverse opinions rub each other up the wrong way.

One of the things I love about dakka is that the sub forums are very much a case of "do you want to know more?" Or alternatively "time to jump down that rabbit hole". I love the fact that "News and Rumours" is all the same forum. I'm on there looking for the latest, saw Mantic news, then there's a X page thread titles "Bear Cavalry" further down and I go ' oh I want to look at that' and I'm suddenly exposed to new things. I hope the mods and a sound realise how vital a strength of dakka that actually is.

One of my favourite threads on Dakka is what are you doing today? which I can only describe as a grab bag of awesomeness. One post er is writing about his Marvel stuff then the next is showing off his Ravenwing conversions.

 Compel wrote:

One of the things I love about dakka is that the sub forums are very much a case of "do you want to know more?" Or alternatively "time to jump down that rabbit hole". I love the fact that "News and Rumours" is all the same forum. I'm on there looking for the latest, saw Mantic news, then there's a X page thread titles "Bear Cavalry" further down and I go ' oh I want to look at that' and I'm suddenly exposed to new things. I hope the mods and a sound realise how vital a strength of dakka that actually is.
.

Agree 100% - one of the things I love about the forum as well (although not necessarily good for the state of my wallet!)

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
Your post is two years too late.

Its more that people are more hypersensitive these days. Robust discussion is frowned on, now.

"Unnecessary snark"? How does that even compute?

Your post is a pretty good example, actually. In it you imply I am hypersensitive (while also painting anyone who disagrees with you with the wide brush of hypersensitivity) while also implying that snide, sarcastic remarks are to expected to the point where calling them unnecessary doesn't "compute" for you.

Just because we are posting electronically and not having a discussion face-to-face doesn't mean we need to be dicks to one another. Having a contrary opinion doesn't make one hypersensitive or afraid of robust discussion. There is plenty of polite, robust discussion on these forums.

The urge to immediately jump down someone's throat when they take a dissenting opinion is what I think The Observer is getting at (correct me if I am wrong), and that seems to be encouraged more here than on other forums.

Not everyone wants to come to a hobby forum and engage in a gun fight. Some people just want to relax and talk about toy soldiers.

And some people are doing exactly that when someone feels the need to pop into the thread to tell them all what horrible people they are because they talk like normal folk rather than characters from an Arthur Ransome novel. I've seen far more passive-aggression and sarcasm from people who feel the need to take issue with the "tone" of other people's posts than I have from people who write about the subject of discussion in a manner that would make people like yourself have a full on monocle-popping & pearl-clutching session. Sadly certain mods seem to agree with you, so you can look forward to enjoying an ever more anodyne posting environment without the discomfort of people holding strong opinions.

OgreChubbs wrote:

People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.

For me, that last word is the important one. After I was here for a while, there started to be a feeling of sameness. When threads on certain subjects come up, I know who will respond and the points they will make, and the flamewars they'll get into. Getting overwrought about a subject I can understand, I've done it a few times, but when I see someone making the same arguments on the same subjects for years on end, it makes the place feel very stale.

 Elemental wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.

For me, that last word is the important one. After I was here for a while, there started to be a feeling of sameness. When threads on certain subjects come up, I know who will respond and the points they will make, and the flamewars they'll get into. Getting overwrought about a subject I can understand, I've done it a few times, but when I see someone making the same arguments on the same subjects for years on end, it makes the place feel very stale.

To combat some of those points is to try to offer something new or just do not engage if it seems too similar.
I look at it as a positive thing: if they get upset: they must care.
There is some common ground to be found there somewhere.

 Talizvar wrote:
To combat some of those points is to try to offer something new or just do not engage if it seems too similar.
I look at it as a positive thing: if they get upset: they must care.
There is some common ground to be found there somewhere.

Reading forums, it sometimes looks like the gun debate in the US. Everyone can agree that it's bad when a bunch of innocent people get shot, but common ground ends there, with the solutions being mutually exclusive, polar opposites. I mean, they can't even agree whether the world would be a safer place with fewer or more assault style rifles floating out there.

On so many gaming issues, the folks seem just as passionate and entrenched -- though obviously, I'm not trying to make an equivalence in terms of the importance of the issue, as it's pretty rare that a game actually kills someone

Personally, I've decided to just mostly keep out of those sorts of wargaming debates. It just sucks too much time out of my life. The irony is, I've met very few people at gaming and hobby shops that seem as unhappy about the "state of the hobby", regardless of what game world it is, as I see online.

I had enough discussions with Talys and Jah about our view on the hobby, but i never think there was some lingering anger/grudge.

But it seems that these days disagreeing with someone is seen as an personal attack.

Too much gak in the world to worry about some disagreement about plastic/restic/resin/metal miniatures

So would it be too geeky to admit to being part of a debating society?
Few things can be as strange as arguing strongly for a view you may not agree with.

I always liked these quotes as a possible guide to posting in "lively" forums:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it". - Aristotle

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

"Take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Elie Wiesel

"The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not and never persist in trying to set people right." ~ Hannah Whitall Smith

Now if only I could follow that advice or at least keep it in mind.

There are allot of things about DD I really do like. The access to most of my game system news on one forum, the level of skill available in both gaming modelling and painting guides and the level of support one can draw on when building army lists or even new game rules.

That said I lurk more than I post for a few reasons that have been discussed and/or seen in this thread. Because I occasionally defend a GW tuleset or release that I like or find technically interesting or think the mechanic adds something worthwhile to the game. There have been occasions where the response doesn't discuss the model or the rules but focuses on how im not a proper gamer or im a fan girl and my opinion can and should be considered invalid because I dont have a real understanding of the game or one of several other lines that simply imply that im not focused on the right portion of the hobby.

Because allot of my close friends are current GW staff or otherwise involved within the wargaming hobby (running shops, working to promote games and raise awareness, freelance sculptors writers and rules designers) I see some things that do change my view on things. So when GW are attacked for not supporting/destroying the FLGS I post things from the other side of the coin and certainly a couple of years ago there was a big chunk of groupthink where if you defended anything the dark lord GW did ypu should be mocked and abused and I have seen things where I thought to my self 'its cool or interesting but if you changed the origin company to GW there wold be thousand word rants about how awful this thing the forums are raving about is'

Its getting better but I still see the one true scotsman thing to dismiss opinions 'ph you're a collector not a real gamer' for example and there's allot if people who feel entitled because as they are inteligent of course theirs is the only logical position and everyone else is unenlightened which means arguments get entrenched and nasty because people view themselves as missionaries spreading the one true word.

You see that attitude is why I haven't ever played malifaux up till now and even though I enjoyed the demo game two weeks back the attitude of the malifaux players at my Uni wargaming club have tainted the system for me. Every time I or others tried to start something for 40k, a campaign, a big game, a league or a TOMG style project we got reams of abuse both on the board the facebook group and in meetings. Abuse for still giving money to GW, abuse for enjoying the game, accusations that we weren't good enough players and painters to compete with them on a small skirmish level and relies on lazy techniques and cheap 'unbalanced rules' to win games rather than skill all in aid of proving they and their chosen system was better and if someone dared criticise or comment negatively on their holy of holies they'd attempt to bully ypu into apologising. I commented that I wasn't keen on the suits mechanic as an ability trigger because it makes it too inconsistent to plan tactics on and you'd think id walked into their flat and done something unspeakable to their favourite childhood plushie from the reaction.

The way fans of a game present themselves can have huge affects on the views people havw of the game and dakka duffers from that as well in its reputation for being somewhat insular and a hive of negativity which is a real shame though not entirely undeserved.

I stay out of the OT board as a matter of course because of a bad experience during a Gender identity discussion where people seemed to air incredibly extreme intolerant views aimply because they have an issue with how western society has changed and tolerance has in some cases become wnforced acceptance. At least I hope some of the extreme views were posted for their shock value rather than actually believed. I have seen similar extremes in the UK because of the change innhow things are discussed.

Danka like the rest of society over the last few years has at times in my experience become a place where sides are taken rather than issues discussed. I really do enjoy the forum because on the whole its a positive and interesting place and I just skip over things when they get nasty or when I know that something I post is going to get me attacked, I dont post my 54mm INQ stuff in the SG forum because I know the inevitable 54mm sucks play it in 28mm bunfight will get started after someone asks me why I play in 54mm. Someone will decide my reasons are WRONG and im having WRONGBADFUNtm and i need to be educated and boom off it goes and all I wanted was to show off a cool new shiny with some interesting fluff and a few cool homebrew items.

On that note I should really get round to posting my commissioned sculpt in the P&M forum because... Its just cool.

I have, for the most part, given up on Dakka and have all, but written it off. I saw this thread and wanted to chime in. I'll say what I have to say and be done.

Dakka toxicity is a major problem. This is a topic that I've brought up time and again and I too have always been met with ridicule, vitriol and even MOD warnings. Seriously... MOD warnings for calling people out on their over baring negativity. Interpret that as you wish.

The negativity and toxicity here branches out to WH AoS & WH 40K communities as well - it's akin to mob mentality. You would be foolish to think that it doesn't.

I simply can't be bothered with it anymore. I can't surround myself with and engage in such negativity, such toxicity; for something that I'm passionate about.

 Talys wrote:
The irony is, I've met very few people at gaming and hobby shops that seem as unhappy about the "state of the hobby", regardless of what game world it is, as I see online.

And I've gotten into far less open shouty arguments about politics in the pub than on facebook and received a lot less death threats walking through Tesco than I did walking into the Bloodhaze in EQ2... I think we tend to be a lot more forthright and a lot less socially adroit online, that doesn't mean that the 'state of the hobby' can be dismissed as the rants of a few voices, but rather that it's more a forum for open, honest and less restrained discussion online.

There is another human behavior that plays itself out rather well:

If you write something reasonable and backed up with facts, it tends to be ignored.

If what you say is controversial and make broad sweeping statements, you get more attention than you can handle.

Try out those two methods in the same thread and see what happens if you want proof.

The news has figured this out even though they are supposed to be "professional" and just report the facts.

 Talizvar wrote:
So would it be too geeky to admit to being part of a debating society?
Few things can be as strange as arguing strongly for a view you may not agree with.

Ha! Me too, though that was nearly 2 decades ago now

there have been some things on here that shocked me but in terms of politics and bias. A thread where someone openly gpt away with telling someone to STFU and his viewpoint was invalid at the same time he was complaining about being offended and begging the mods to punish another poster for being offensive.

Going so far as to start a thread with an inflammatory question that immediately presumed guilt and when an opposing point was offered it was immediately dismissed as bs and when demand that the person be punished.

The guy even basically admitted he had no interest in talking to the guy about his issue with him and prefered to do a messy public accusation which included a presumption of guilt based on posting history, and a very blunt attitude of I am in the right anyone ith the opposing view is wrong and shouldn't be allowed to state their opinion.

When questioned the second time about why he didnt ask the poster about the issue his response was basically 'why the heck should give him a chance to spout the same wrong bad evil argument that x above poster did' showing their was no interest in anything other than mod enforcement of his opinions.

Its something I see allot on forums where people seek out echo chambers where heir viewpoints can't be challenged, their safe and protected from having to think for themselves and stick to their views (in this case one which as been stirred up by the media and fills him with righteous indignation)

I don't really understand how this combination has appeared in social discourse on the one hand this entitled attitude of 'I am a special snowflake who needs my bubble and cocoon of safe space and cannot be allowed to hear or see anything that may possibly offend my fragile mind' combined with an attitude of 'Anyone who disagrees with me is every Ist under the sun plus a few new ones I have created myself and its perfectly acceptable fpr me to throw insults and labels put and dismiss their arguments because I AM PURE AND RIGHTEOUS AND RIGHT!!!'

I don't get how people can ask for their opinions to be respected and demand tp be offered safe spaces but at the same time berate and assassinate peoples character because they disagree with their viewpoint. Surely that's a pick one option? Either you are to respect everyone's expressions of self and views equally and handle discussion in a gentle non confrontal way supporting people in their personal identity and airing of views OR everyone who disagrees with you is open to personal attack and abuse but it seems its supportive and gentle and safe space AS LONG AS YPU AGREE WITH ME!!!


I

That's the only way it makes sense, dang I guess I agree with everyone who said it isn't Dakka it's society in general that's got toxic ooor I'm just getting older and more jaded.

On a sidenote I'm going to have that terrible Brittney Spears record in my head all dang day now FML

If hypocrisy was a virus we would all be dead.

 Talizvar wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:

People feel directly insulted and find the need to vent the pointless arguments about it....... Constantly.

For me, that last word is the important one. After I was here for a while, there started to be a feeling of sameness. When threads on certain subjects come up, I know who will respond and the points they will make, and the flamewars they'll get into. Getting overwrought about a subject I can understand, I've done it a few times, but when I see someone making the same arguments on the same subjects for years on end, it makes the place feel very stale.

To combat some of those points is to try to offer something new or just do not engage if it seems too similar.
I look at it as a positive thing: if they get upset: they must care.
There is some common ground to be found there somewhere.

I don't engage, that's why I post here a lot less than I did.

And it seems there is no room for discussion, either you agree with them or you're the enemy. Heck, I remember a vicious argument not so long ago that stemmed from whether Sisters of Battle or Chaos Space Marines were the most neglected faction. Personal attacks, snark, mountains of evidence being quoted and promptly ignored, all for the sake of winning an argument about being slightly worse off than the other poster.

In general, it's the aggression that's offputting. I found other places to discuss Warmachine Mk3 in the runup, because if I posted here, I'd have risked being jumped on by the Ruined Forever / PP Is Satan crew. Hey, the Rifts RPG is getting a Savage Worlds conversion done on KS, better not mention it here in case I get accused of being a Palladium fanboy by those burned by the Robotech KS.

Sometimes, the hyper-aggression can be amusing to spectate on, like in any YMDC thread that goes over three pages, but it makes me very careful about what I post here, because I just don't have the energy for arguing that I used to. But I guess preferring discussion to winning arguments makes me over-sensitive and unable to handle vigorous debates.

The aggressive nature of some posters puts me off most discussion on here.

You have the same posters coming into threads to moan and backslap each other, and it goes unmodded in the most part. All that then happens is that someone snaps and says something, and they are punished.

There isn't a decent place to have a grown up discussion anymore, especially with WarmaHordes or Warhammer

The internet has been like this for years; it seems easier to be very critical of others because of the physical barrier and the possibility for misinterpretation.

I'm not gonna lie, I have tendencies to be passive aggressive myself - it's why I left the forums for a very long time as I felt like I wasn't contributing to anything meaningful nor was I treating others well.

Fact of the matter is, people will always argue, and sometimes people will drop bait that will lure people into being more aggressive. However, as long as we all keep in mind that, for the most part, the discussions on this forum are about hobbies and not anything more serious than a pastime that we all share a common interest in, then we can always go in for the sweaty hug after a match in the boxing ring

And hey, I think most people here are pretty nice and friendly towards each other, even when they disagree. You go Dakka community!

G.A

Do you guys not use the Alert a Mod button? Works most of the time for me.

 Talys wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
So would it be too geeky to admit to being part of a debating society?
Few things can be as strange as arguing strongly for a view you may not agree with.

Ha! Me too, though that was nearly 2 decades ago now

Me three.

My good lady sometimes accuses me of starting arguments just so that she can win them. (There is a modicum of truth there - because nothing makes it easier to put money towards a Kickstarter than getting my good lady to be the one pushing for it. (Bones III. ))

The Auld Grump

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Do you guys not use the Alert a Mod button? Works most of the time for me.

Nothing seems to ever happen unless someone's blatantly breaking a rule (rather than dancing juuuuust up to the line while staying snarky, aggressive and low-content).

It may also help to be clear and concise with what you type in the little box when reporting a perp.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
You have the same posters coming into threads to moan and backslap each other, and it goes unmodded in the most part. All that then happens is that someone snaps and says something, and they are punished.

Here's the thing: Moderation is intended to keep the forums civil and more or less on-topic. It's not the job of the moderators to enforce a positive attitude. The moment we start censoring people for having any given opinion on a topic, the forum becomes completely useless as a venue for discussion and just becomes an echo chamber. Or, in other words, pretty much exactly the sort of thing that people complain about with various companies' 'official' forums...


I'll say the same thing I've been saying for years now: If you want a more positive environment for discussion, the solution is to engage in more positive discussion. You don't have to argue with someone you see as being relentlessly negative... just focus on the positives in the discussion and ignore the rest. If the negative comments get spammy then they can be reported, but otherwise just let people have their opinions and get on with discussing the shiny stuff.

A forum is a community of people with varying opinions, and the tone of that community is shaped by the way those people choose to present themselves. That works both ways... A positive community is that way not because negative opinions are censored but because people choose to build a positive community.

As another consideration, companies/games you don't like get pushed farther down the page by responding (hopefully positively) in threads about stuff you do like. Every time you engage a 'jerk' you bring the topic to the highest part of the pile and encourage people to keep it there.