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I'm trying to figure out a balance for the best melee space marines. I've been told blood Angels, space wolves, and black Templars. What about a black templar allied with grey Knights?

Black Templar are probably the worst in my opinion. Space Wolves are best with TWC and Blood Angels technically form a middle ground but as I'm often told they suck.

What kind of army are you after?

Space Wolves. By a mile.

BT are better than BA, because they have access to vanilla toys. BA are really gak at assault in 7th.

Really for melee specifically I'd give it to BA just for the Chapter Tactics. You at least control your tactic. Whether Templars tactic is used is entirely up to the opponent.

Well, I'm looking for a melee based troop and dreadnought army with Psyker back up. I love melee troops, Psykers, and dreads. I love the fluff for all four chapters I mentioned(are GK a chapter, I guess not?)

pm713 wrote:
Really for melee specifically I'd give it to BA just for the Chapter Tactics. You at least control your tactic. Whether Templars tactic is used is entirely up to the opponent.

BA chapter tactic is total crap because you have to charge and everyone knows it. Spoiling assaults kill BA.


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Well, I'm looking for a melee based troop and dreadnought army with Psyker back up. I love melee troops, Psykers, and dreads. I love the fluff for all four chapters I mentioned(are GK a chapter, I guess not?)

Space Wolves. They even have dreads with shields.

You get to choose between BA and SW then. BT have no psykers and it kind of ruins their fluff to have psyker but that might just be me. GK are kind of a Chapter but also not. They're a weird special case.

I'd go Space Wolves. You get psykers, decent dreadnought with the axe/shield combo and of the options you have the best cc troops.

Generally to go into cc you have to charge anyway. BA are better as they get the +1 S and maybe +1 I whereas with Templars all I have to do is not Overwatch which costs me very little and you get zero bonus.

Space wolves it is, I was already leaning towards them. It'll be odd to ally with GK cause of fluff.

pm713 wrote:
You get to choose between BA and SW then. BT have no psykers and it kind of ruins their fluff to have psyker but that might just be me. GK are kind of a Chapter but also not. They're a weird special case.

I'd go Space Wolves. You get psykers, decent dreadnought with the axe/shield combo and of the options you have the best cc troops.

Generally to go into cc you have to charge anyway. BA are better as they get the +1 S and maybe +1 I whereas with Templars all I have to do is not Overwatch which costs me very little and you get zero bonus.

But you can charge the BA on your turn and take away all their bonuses and get bonuses of your own!


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Space wolves it is, I was already leaning towards them. It'll be odd to ally with GK cause of fluff.

Space Wolves are better generalist CC troops. GK are very specific, as they get few attacks but all have force weapons.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You get to choose between BA and SW then. BT have no psykers and it kind of ruins their fluff to have psyker but that might just be me. GK are kind of a Chapter but also not. They're a weird special case.

I'd go Space Wolves. You get psykers, decent dreadnought with the axe/shield combo and of the options you have the best cc troops.

Generally to go into cc you have to charge anyway. BA are better as they get the +1 S and maybe +1 I whereas with Templars all I have to do is not Overwatch which costs me very little and you get zero bonus.

But you can charge the BA on your turn and take away all their bonuses and get bonuses of your own!


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Space wolves it is, I was already leaning towards them. It'll be odd to ally with GK cause of fluff.

Space Wolves are better generalist CC troops. GK are very specific, as they get few attacks but all have force weapons.

If I charge BT they don't get bonuses either. Both are bad at being charged and one is better than the other at charging.

Is there anyway to make Terminators worthwhile in SW?

Maybe. I don't get to assault very often, which makes that bonus seem very hollow. Also, I have to think that the BT grav cents already killed half my models.


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Is there anyway to make Terminators worthwhile in SW?

Sorta, but not really. Their power units are TWC and Wulfen.

All well, I'll probably still buy and paint some up cause they're awesome.

 HCMistborn wrote:
All well, I'll probably still buy and paint some up cause they're awesome.

It's a long standing frustration. BA are known to field lots of terminators (I think) but I personally field zero because they are awful.

Is grav the main reason they're useless?

I don't know why anyone would say Blood Angels are better off than Templars. Templars get the better toys and have access to better formations.


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Is grav the main reason they're useless?

They're not very durable for the price on top of not having good damage output for the price.

Ah that makes sense. It's so anti fluff about them

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't know why anyone would say Blood Angels are better off than Templars. Templars get the better toys and have access to better formations.

How many are melee of those are melee based?

 HCMistborn wrote:
Ah that makes sense. It's so anti fluff about them

It's not just grav. It's any AP 2, really. Plus, they aren't actually more durable on a per point basis than normal marines. And the kicker is that stormbolters are awful.

Are there any formations specifically for melee SW's?


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How do you guys feel about the space sharks?

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't know why anyone would say Blood Angels are better off than Templars. Templars get the better toys and have access to better formations.

How many are melee of those are melee based?

Any of the ones with melee units? Not everything has to focus on frickin Crusader squads.


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Are there any formations specifically for melee SW's?


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How do you guys feel about the space sharks?

I like their Bikers and Scouts.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't know why anyone would say Blood Angels are better off than Templars. Templars get the better toys and have access to better formations.

How many are melee of those are melee based?

A melee-centric list can still have the grav cents in the list. BA can't do that.

Death Company? Although will have to defer to the SW suggestions. Wulfen, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Murderfang, etc.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't know why anyone would say Blood Angels are better off than Templars. Templars get the better toys and have access to better formations.

How many are melee of those are melee based?

Any of the ones with melee units? Not everything has to focus on frickin Crusader squads.


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 HCMistborn wrote:
Are there any formations specifically for melee SW's?


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How do you guys feel about the space sharks?

I like their Bikers and Scouts.

Which are what exactly?

No but when you're making a MELEE LIST THE MELEE UNITS HELP.

10th Company with Shotguns or Pistols/CCW's, 1st Company with Vanguard Veterans or Terminators (which are bad no matter what) and even Sternguard (getting off Counter Attack makes them pretty mean), the Siege Cohort or whatever it's called (Ironclads are awesome now), and obviously any command detachment with Honour Guard (which are better than Sanguine Guard) and your choice of Chapter Master.

Top that off with better Bikers and it's easy to see Black Templars as better than Blood Angels easily.

I too love melee oriented armies. I went with BA because of the style of the army and access to lots of fast moving units. Yes they might be overcosted compared to codex marines and might not have the same options but hey there is more to 40k than just winning every game!

Death company are excellent and the jump packs are cheap which makes them fast. If you want a truly melee based army then BA is going to likely be a better option.

TWC and Wulfen are strong but outside of that SW aren't more melee oriented.

Blood Angels Bikes aren't bad they can take 2 grav and a combi grav on the Sergeant.

They can also get some decent dreads with the Frag Furioso and Cassor the Damned can get up to 8 attacks on the charge. If your playing friendly casual games go for the one that gives you what you are looking for.

That's my opinion and I'm sure someone will say I'm wrong.

Either way have fun!

That's the thing, I'm not looking to play competitively, I care more about fluff and how my army looks and feels. BUT, that doesn't mean I am okay with losing every time either. I only play at my FLGS, but still, I don't want to walk in with a bunch of sword bearing marines and just get my butt stomped every time. 50/50 I am okay with.

sounds to me like the OP wants a footslogging melee unit in terminator armor, if so... Grey Knights are his best choice.

Basically, but if GK aren't going to get me anywhere, then I'm hesitant to take them, if that makes sense?

Good players can get somewhere with just about anything. Army comes into play when player skill level is on par. At least thats based on my experience.