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Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Feth me London, can you keep your nose out of county council decision making?
In other words, Fracking has been given the go ahead in Lancashire, despite Lancs county council saying no and all the other people who are against it.
But it's ok for London to decide what's good for the North, who cares what happens to us plebians, we're all fething backwards country bumpkins anyway.
Can someone buy me a desk so I can pound my head into it?
Sajid Javid is MP for Bromsgrove, hardly London. Lets not confuse geography for Govt. or can we expect a new LancsIndyRef1 demand?
I suspect that this will now just move to the Supreme Court anyway.
I'm personally hoping for a return to the rule of Viking overlords.
I'm pretty sure the last of them got eaten by the Norfolk Snake people centuries ago, so short of some far fetched "Finding of the Last of the Vikings" montage happening that aint happening. All hail Hissssh!
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
Orlanth wrote: Scotland has no status in Europe, Scottish MEP's do so through the UK.
There is a tiny problem with that....
The noises from the EU are very positive towards Scotland's admittance to the EU, the only issues are really around exactly how Scotland joins
It all depends on the timing. There are still issues as the EU would have to rewrite the joining process, this could happen, but it would have to happen along a timeframe the EU doesn't normally work at, and specific exception for Scotland cant be done under EU law, a new process would have to be invented wholecloth. That could happen, but it would also be seen to be EU interference in a UK internal matter, because it's a rewriting of EU law would need to be timed to directly influence a specific internal referendum. Which will get all sorts of ugly on both sides of the channel. Indyref shoehorned into the Brexit timetable, with a further shoehorn into the EU, would be seen as directly connected to moves to penalise the UK as well as EU interference on internal matters, which will in turn cause large and long lasting recriminations between England and Scotland, and the Uk and the continent. This will be bad for Scots living the England and vice versa as things get uglier.
Then you still have Spanish problems to add onto that. On one hand they want to take Gibraltar, on the other they want to send a message to their own provinces that succession doesn't work, which is the opposite to what is happening here.
All in all it is a huge shitstorm that would spill over internationally. The Troubles in Ireland might resurface, the UK would be damaged by the interference, but now hostile and still well positioned to feth things up for the EU.
All in all it would be safer for the EU to make noises that after Brexit concludes, an iScotland could apply to join. It tallies closer to what the EU states already said during the indyref campaign, and it raises no spectre of interference in an internal referendum, which is something else the EU was at pains not to do in either of the referenda held in the UK in recent years.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/06 13:02:07
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth wrote: Scotland has no status in Europe, Scottish MEP's do so through the UK.
There is a tiny problem with that....
The noises from the EU are very positive towards Scotland's admittance to the EU, the only issues are really around exactly how Scotland joins
It all depends on the timing. There are still issues as the EU would have to rewrite the joining process, this could happen, but it would have to happen along a timeframe the EU doesn't normally work at, and specific exception for Scotland cant be done under EU law, a new process would have to be invented wholecloth. That could happen, but it would also be seen to be EU interference in a UK internal matter, because it's a rewriting of EU law would need to be timed to directly influence a specific internal referendum. Which will get all sorts of ugly on both sides of the channel. Indyref shoehorned into the Brexit timetable, with a further shoehorn into the EU, would be seen as directly connected to moves to penalise the UK as well as EU interference on internal matters, which will in turn cause large and long lasting recriminations between England and Scotland, and the Uk and the continent. This will be bad for Scots living the England and vice versa as things get uglier.
Then you still have Spanish problems to add onto that. On one hand they want to take Gibraltar, on the other they want to send a message to their own provinces that succession doesn't work, which is the opposite to what is happening here.
All in all it is a huge shitstorm that would spill over internationally. The Troubles in Ireland might resurface, the UK would be damaged by the interference, but now hostile and still well positioned to feth things up for the EU.
All in all it would be safer for the EU to make noises that after Brexit concludes, an iScotland could apply to join. It tallies closer to what the EU states already said during the indyref campaign, and it raises no spectre of interference in an internal referendum, which is something else the EU was at pains not to do in either of the referenda held in the UK in recent years.
The main issue here is that Scotland would have to first be independent from the United Kingdom before they can even discuss talks about joining the EU. There is no way they are able to join whilst still being part of Great Britain, there is no legal power to make that happen. It would be like Catalonia wanting to join the EU whilst still being ruled by Spain (if Spain were not an EU member state). Not going to happen.
Even if Scotland did become independent, they would have to then wait to join the EU and even then, they might not meet the criteria. The power crazed bureaucrats in Brussels won't want another Greece.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/06 14:24:47
"For The Emperor and Sanguinius!"
My Armies:
Blood Angels, Ultramarines,
Astra Militarum,
Mechanicus
So May had some really dumb things to say about citizenship:
"If you believe you’re a citizen of the world,” May said in the hour-long speech on Oct. 5 to her Conservative party’s conference, “you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means."
Goddamn small mindedness. We all inhabit the same, tiny fething planet and, at the moment, when that planet is gone, we are gone too. We should be striving to unite all people of the world, to push forward together, becoming a true family of the human race, forging our world society into something which can endure and expand beyond the constraints of our planet and even our solar system. Instead we get our leaders telling us to think small, to constrain ourselves to one tiny island on a tiny, fragile blue dot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 14:33:35
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
May is spot on, I completely agree with her. On the contrary, I think it is the complete opposite to small mindedness. Too many people seem to have been brainwashed into believing that the world revolves around Europe, we can't do anything without Europe, we are weak and pathetic without them and not able to do anything ourselves as a nation. Scaremongering, all of it.
Brexit means removing the inward looking EU blinkers and embracing the rest of the world, that is what coming together as a world society is about. The UK will be open for business with the rest of the world without the EU holding us back with their political meddling. The aim of the EU is to create a European superstate and destroy all national identity of its member states. I just cannot fathom how anyone in their right mind would want this, unless they love communist dictatorships.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for close ties with Europe, but it should be as a partnership between other European countries (I use the correct word of 'countries' and not 'states') working together for the benefit of all and NOT as a political union with ruling parliaments in Strasbourg and Brussels overriding UK laws and laws of the other countries.
On the opposite side, I am a tad concerned about the rise of the far right, it is going from one extreme to the other. Neither of which are healthy. What I like about May's approach is that she is aiming for the centre and that seems to be the best compromise at this time for everyone.
The EU is a complete and utter mess at the moment anyway. Why would anyone want to be part of that? Of course if people just follow the Guardian and the BBC, they would think everything was wonderful and rosy with it.
But hey, what do I know. According to remainers, I must be over 60, a crazed lunatic, and an uneducated fool that believes that Britain is better off out of the EU.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/06 15:04:42
"For The Emperor and Sanguinius!"
My Armies:
Blood Angels, Ultramarines,
Astra Militarum,
Mechanicus
Slaphead you forgot you also need to be a xenophobic racist biggot with the iq of a brick to be a leave voter (sarcasam for those who take it otherwise).
Well the ukip meps had a punch up in brussels and mr wolfe is in hospital after collapsing with a suspected bleed on the brain. Lots of nasty comments on social media about it. But i think they were Only trying to copy the Italian parliment isnt that what the eu is all about us all being the same? He he.
The main issue here is that Scotland would have to first be independent from the United Kingdom before they can even discuss talks about joining the EU.
Its already been discussed, with Jean Claude Junker no less. Given that Scotland already meets the criteria for EU membership because we are already in the EU its fanciful that Scotland's membership application would be blocked (assuming that there isn't some political handwaving and we end up taking the UK's place or something similar).
The main issue here is that Scotland would have to first be independent from the United Kingdom before they can even discuss talks about joining the EU.
Its already been discussed, with Jean Claude Junker no less. Given that Scotland already meets the criteria for EU membership because we are already in the EU its fanciful that Scotland's membership application would be blocked (assuming that there isn't some political handwaving and we end up taking the UK's place or something similar).
Great Britain has membership with the EU, not Scotland. Scotland is a region of Britain and not an independent country. Therefore what Juncker and Sturgeon agree on is irrelevant. Until Scotland has another independence referendum and votes to leave Great Britain then they can never join the EU without the agreement of Westminster. Unfortunately, Sturgeon is living in fantasy land if she thinks otherwise.
Ha ha, yes about the sarcasm. Talking about politics, we certainly need it!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 16:44:24
"For The Emperor and Sanguinius!"
My Armies:
Blood Angels, Ultramarines,
Astra Militarum,
Mechanicus
Skullhammer wrote: Slaphead you forgot you also need to be a xenophobic racist biggot with the iq of a brick to be a leave voter (sarcasam for those who take it otherwise).
Well, seeing as we're all being sarcastic then. You are everything that is wrong with british politics at the moment. You have short-sightedly given the go-ahead for the Tory party to institute draconian laws that will cripple british social services and industry by removing the foreign workers that it relies on to survive due to the complete lack of Britons willing to perform those jobs, and you have turned the atmosphere of this country from one that I was proud to be part of to one one of xenophobia and intolerance.
Also, it's spelt "bigot" and "sarcasm". If you're going to try and parody people at least spell it correctly. Something something IQ of a brick.
Sarcasm is so much fun!!
Well the ukip meps had a punch up in brussels and mr wolfe is in hospital after collapsing with a suspected bleed on the brain. Lots of nasty comments on social media about it. But i think they were Only trying to copy the Italian parliment isnt that what the eu is all about us all being the same? He he.
"our guys aren't terrible, it's you guys that are terrible! uh huh!! We only had our MEPs beat the gak out of each other in parliament as a reference to that other, infamously corrupt, parliament! That means it's okay!!"
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/06 17:20:16
Re the UKIP punch-up- supposedly someone was going to defect to the Conservatives so they had a disagreement about that and well... that fight didn't really resolve anything, did it?
Slaphead wrote: Until Scotland has another independence referendum and votes to leave Great Britain then they can never join the EU without the agreement of Westminster. Unfortunately, Sturgeon is living in fantasy land if she thinks otherwise.
She doesn't think otherwise, but she is laying the groundwork for an eventual EU application as well as being as through as possible on the off chance that there is some loophole that could allow Scotland to remain within the EU and she is also reassuring pro EU Scots that she is on side.
In essence she is being an astute politician, a bit of a novelty these days.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 17:31:25
Wow grammer police out in full force. curse of the mobile and big fingers.
Update on woolfe he's sitting up and no sign of bleeding but staying in over night for extra checks. Oh and no where have i said i voted tory or said it was alright to hit some one. Just trying to get a bit of humour into this 'heavy' thread.
The main issue here is that Scotland would have to first be independent from the United Kingdom before they can even discuss talks about joining the EU. There is no way they are able to join whilst still being part of Great Britain, there is no legal power to make that happen. It would be like Catalonia wanting to join the EU whilst still being ruled by Spain (if Spain were not an EU member state). Not going to happen.
However Sturgeon wants to minimise the wait, and thus get nods of approval from the EU so she can hold a snap indyref. It is the best option for the SNP. However it would mean the EU making promises to the Scottish government and electorate that would be directly influencing the indyref vote. Some in Brussels might want this as it will further damage the rUK.
Indyref2 will happen, the question is when and the outcome is uncertain. Scotland might find itself outside both unions.
Even if Scotland did become independent, they would have to then wait to join the EU and even then, they might not meet the criteria. The power crazed bureaucrats in Brussels won't want another Greece.
The EU wanted the Uk as members for our economic muscle, Scotland they are less happy about. The EU wants to downscale frankly and the indication is th club med economies are going to get the push. iScotland is club med without the sunshine, high unemployment, and a brief rennaissance in standards of living caused by overborrowing and the last fleeting remnants of North Sea oil which gives Scotland a better economic profile than it actually has. Scots might be fooled by that, but the EU inparticularly the French and Germans are not.
The main problems for Scottish entry will come from Spain though, who must veto Scottish membership in order to prevent a collapse of thier own national unity.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
The main issue here is that Scotland would have to first be independent from the United Kingdom before they can even discuss talks about joining the EU. There is no way they are able to join whilst still being part of Great Britain, there is no legal power to make that happen. It would be like Catalonia wanting to join the EU whilst still being ruled by Spain (if Spain were not an EU member state). Not going to happen.
However Sturgeon wants to minimise the wait, and thus get nods of approval from the EU so she can hold a snap indyref. It is the best option for the SNP. However it would mean the EU making promises to the Scottish government and electorate that would be directly influencing the indyref vote. Some in Brussels might want this as it will further damage the rUK.
Indyref2 will happen, the question is when and the outcome is uncertain. Scotland might find itself outside both unions.
Even if Scotland did become independent, they would have to then wait to join the EU and even then, they might not meet the criteria. The power crazed bureaucrats in Brussels won't want another Greece.
The EU wanted the Uk as members for our economic muscle, Scotland they are less happy about. The EU wants to downscale frankly and the indication is th club med economies are going to get the push. iScotland is club med without the sunshine, high unemployment, and a brief rennaissance in standards of living caused by overborrowing and the last fleeting remnants of North Sea oil which gives Scotland a better economic profile than it actually has. Scots might be fooled by that, but the EU inparticularly the French and Germans are not.
The main problems for Scottish entry will come from Spain though, who must veto Scottish membership in order to prevent a collapse of thier own national unity.
No disrespect, but the Spanish veto threat horse has been flogged that many times, it has been turned into glue and used to assemble a squad of space marines.
Spain's position on an indy Scotland and the EU, which they are on RECORD as saying, is thus:
If Scotland LEGALLY leaves the UK, then Spain has no objections to Scotland in the EU.
If Scotland break away, a la Kosovo, then Spain will block everything, like what they did with Kosovo, becuase we all know that Spain has seperatist movements of its own and any attempt at UDI will fail, as Spain has refused legal recognition of a referendum for Catalonia and independence.
But to repeat, if Scotland LEGALLY leaves the UK, Spain will not veto.
The Spanish have been crystal clear on this on numerous occasions...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Mrs May must be laughing all the way to the bank. A successful conference, UKIP imploding, the Lib who? and now Corbyn has just handed her the 2020 election with the announcement of his new shadow cabinet.
My fellow dakka members: should you tire of Conservative rule, an Indy Scotland welcomes you.
On a serious note, I'm to old and stubborn to move, but having lived through the 1980s and 1990s under the Tories, I would advise younger dakka members to get on the last plane flying out of Stalingrad.
Yes, I voted to leave the EU, and I don't regret that for a nano-second, but as I said, I had a naive hope that the two zombie parties, Labour and Tories, would not survive June 23rd, and new parties would replace them. Maybe they will. but 10 years of Tory rule is not good for your health.
I'm lucky up here in Scotland, I least I have some sort of escape route...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Kilkrazy wrote: There are no indications at all that the EU wants to kick out Greece, Italy and Spain.
The EU can not and would not roll up the white flag like that, not on top of losing the UK. The EU would be finished.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
No disrespect, but the Spanish veto threat horse has been flogged that many times, it has been turned into glue and used to assemble a squad of space marines.
Spain's position on an indy Scotland and the EU, which they are on RECORD as saying, is thus:
If Scotland LEGALLY leaves the UK, then Spain has no objections to Scotland in the EU.
If Scotland break away, a la Kosovo, then Spain will block everything, like what they did with Kosovo, becuase we all know that Spain has seperatist movements of its own and any attempt at UDI will fail, as Spain has refused legal recognition of a referendum for Catalonia and independence.
But to repeat, if Scotland LEGALLY leaves the UK, Spain will not veto.
The Spanish have been crystal clear on this on numerous occasions...
Oh really.
First I recommend you use polystyrene cement to glue plastic models such as GW kits, not traditional glue.
Back to the issue of Spain.
I remember knocking this idea for six back in the indyref thread. But I will get fresh links just for you.
Speaking as Nicola Sturgeon arrived on the second day of an emergency summit in Brussels, Mr Rajoy said that "if the UK goes, Scotland goes too".
How dare the Spanish Prime Minister have a different policy on Spanish foreign policy to Do_I_Not_Like_That! You should spank him for his disobedience.
Now a number of cybernats are saying Spanish veto will be bypassed or simply not occur. However that is extreme wishful thinking. Any attempt to join which has to occur under Article 48 or 49 will both pass through an open vote in the EU by each member state which requires unanimous assent. i.e any no vote is a veto.
Furthermore Belgium has made growlings that it might also say not to Scotland joining.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Slaphead wrote: May is spot on, I completely agree with her. On the contrary, I think it is the complete opposite to small mindedness. Too many people seem to have been brainwashed into believing that the world revolves around Europe, we can't do anything without Europe, we are weak and pathetic without them and not able to do anything ourselves as a nation. Scaremongering, all of it.
Brexit means removing the inward looking EU blinkers and embracing the rest of the world, that is what coming together as a world society is about. The UK will be open for business with the rest of the world without the EU holding us back with their political meddling. The aim of the EU is to create a European superstate and destroy all national identity of its member states. I just cannot fathom how anyone in their right mind would want this, unless they love communist dictatorships.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for close ties with Europe, but it should be as a partnership between other European countries (I use the correct word of 'countries' and not 'states') working together for the benefit of all and NOT as a political union with ruling parliaments in Strasbourg and Brussels overriding UK laws and laws of the other countries.
On the opposite side, I am a tad concerned about the rise of the far right, it is going from one extreme to the other. Neither of which are healthy. What I like about May's approach is that she is aiming for the centre and that seems to be the best compromise at this time for everyone.
The EU is a complete and utter mess at the moment anyway. Why would anyone want to be part of that? Of course if people just follow the Guardian and the BBC, they would think everything was wonderful and rosy with it.
But hey, what do I know. According to remainers, I must be over 60, a crazed lunatic, and an uneducated fool that believes that Britain is better off out of the EU.
Nice to meet you Slaphead, and thank you for your post. I liked it so much I exalted it.
"If you believe you’re a citizen of the world,” May said in the hour-long speech on Oct. 5 to her Conservative party’s conference, “you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means."
Goddamn small mindedness. We all inhabit the same, tiny fething planet and, at the moment, when that planet is gone, we are gone too. We should be striving to unite all people of the world, to push forward together, becoming a true family of the human race, forging our world society into something which can endure and expand beyond the constraints of our planet and even our solar system. Instead we get our leaders telling us to think small, to constrain ourselves to one tiny island on a tiny, fragile blue dot.
Well hold on there pal, she's got a good point; from a cold, logical point of view there is no 'international citizen' status.
In britain we accept that someone who spends less than a third of their life living in britain doesn't live in britain and therefore don't have to pay certain taxes on income etc.
So that statement was really a message to those who arrange their entire lives to never quite spend enough time in one place to actually pay the normal taxes for living/existing there (capital gains tax for example); it's not a dig at how connected you feel with the other humans around the world.
But i think you're trying to be offended there in all honesty.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
If the bulk of the EU nations wanted to admit independent Scotland, a way would be found to square the Spanish circle..
There is a zeitgeist towards making things difficult for the UK. A break up of the UK would be decent schadenfreude for federalists. But whether the EU member states have changed their opinion on Scottish membership is yet to be discovered. We know that Spain hasn't changed her tune though.
Yes it is, which is why it can easily take a decade of debate and agreement and deals on deals to get a country in the EU.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 22:47:54
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Kilkrazy wrote:It's useless to decide in advance "blah blah blah" because veto.
If the bulk of the EU nations wanted to admit independent Scotland, a way would be found to square the Spanish circle.
That's democratic politics in action.
As a rule of thumb, don't believe anything Rajoy says.
Around here he's usually "hailed" as the best negotiator in the world, in the sense that he will sit down in front of you, agree to every single one of your demands and sign an agreement. Then he'll proceed to either ignore or outright break every single promise he's made, pretend it's someone else's fault, and just sit back and do/say nothing while some expendable pawn of his own party is used as a straw shield to get all the heat and then unceremoniously forced to resign.
He's everything that gives the word "politician" a bad name: ignorant, incompetent, unscrupulous, hypocrite, bigot, coward, liar, and corrupt.
Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.
GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get.
If the bulk of the EU nations wanted to admit independent Scotland, a way would be found to square the Spanish circle..
There is a zeitgeist towards making things difficult for the UK. A break up of the UK would be decent schadenfreude for federalists. But whether the EU member states have changed their opinion on Scottish membership is yet to be discovered. We know that Spain hasn't changed her tune though.
Yes it is, which is why it can easily take a decade of debate and agreement and deals on deals to get a country in the EU.
Scotland is already in the EU; they just need to not leave it. At any rate, a decade of debate may be better than a decision imposed overnight as the UK government can do.
If Scotland is going to be leaving the EU anyway (and they will, at least temporarily, because the rest of Europe has said that they will have to apply for membership) then why are you opposed to just being patient and waiting till BREXIT is concluded? Hell, Scotland unanimously withdrawing from the UK could even sabotage BREXIT and severely damage our negotiating position.
Why should we wait until the damage has been done to decide what we want to do?
We want to stay in the EU, so why wait until we've left to ask to get back in, instead of trying to stay in in the first place? If we need to leave temporarily, I'd rather that temporary window was as short as possible, and that we have the power/autonomy to minimize the damage.
Re. Sabotage - if you let us become independent, then you can do whatever you like, we're only going to try and resist it whilst you resist a referendum. It should be clear enough that we want to stay in the EU, so why wouldn't we resist leaving?
Herzlos wrote: It's all down to fleet prices and re-sale values, and it usually results in the police buying inferior vehicles. BMW offer better bulk sales, which higher garuanteed sales values when they get retired (after 6 years or so).
It's a shame, I remember years ago, when MG was still on the go, that the police testers favorite car to use was the ZTT-190, but Ford undercut them on the Mondeo estates, so that's what they got.
I like that car.
I had the saloon version for about 7 years until it started to fall apart :( loved it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/07 11:07:25
welshhoppo wrote: Because you have no legal authority to ask. Scotland can't do foreign policy.
We can't negotiate agreements whilst part of rUK, but we are certainly capable of determining *what* we want to do.
It's in rUK's interests too - if there's an Indyref2 and it fails, then you've got no problem, and our agreement on leaving the EU.
If it succeeds, and we decide to leave the EU, then you've got our help there.
If it succeeds, and we don't want to leave the EU, we can at least make it known to the EU that our intention is to agree to join ASAP, ideally starting the negotiations before rUK leaves.
I genuinely don't understand why anyone things it's better to wait until we're out to decide if we want to be out or not. With the tories at the helm, it'll potentially be far too late by then; I really don't trust them not to burn our bridges.
Blood Angels, 
Ultramarines,
Legion: Dark Angels 
