UK Politics

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**AlmightyWalrus**

It would appear as though experts are OK, after all. As long as they're British, that is.

Brexit: LSE foreign experts 'should not advise ministers'

The London School of Economics says some of its academics have been barred from advising the Foreign Office on Brexit because they are not British.

The university said the leader of a project had been told only UK passport-holders should be involved in talks on national security and foreign trade.

But the Foreign Office said nothing had changed following Brexit.

It said it would "continue to take advice from the best and brightest minds, regardless of nationality".

Former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg, now the party's EU spokesman, said: "It is utterly baffling the government is turning down expert, independent advice on Brexit simply because someone is from another country.

"This is yet more evidence of the Conservatives' alarming embrace of petty chauvinism over rational policymaking."

A spokesman for the LSE said that after the referendum, a team of fewer than 10 researchers had been charged with providing policy advice to help ministers troubleshoot any issues that might arise as the process of leaving the EU progresses.
'No longer qualify'

In a statement, the LSE said: "We believe our academics, including non-UK nationals, have hugely valuable expertise, which will be vital in this time of uncertainty around the UK's relationship with Europe and the rest of the world.

"Any changes to security measures are a matter for the UK government."

A spokesman for the Foreign Office said: "The FCO regularly works with academic institutions to assist in its policy research, and nothing has changed as a result of the referendum.

"It has always been the case that anyone working in the FCO may require security clearance depending on the nature and duration of their work.

"Britain is an outward-looking nation and we will continue to take advice from the best and brightest minds, regardless of nationality."

The LSE's assistant professor Sara Hagemann wrote on Twitter she was no longer wanted on the project.

The Danish academic joined the university's European Institute in September 2009 and is regarded as a leading commentator on European Union affairs.

She tweeted: "UK govt previously sought work& advice from best experts. Just told I & many colleagues no longer qualify as not UKcitizens #Brexit @LSEnews".

The information was communicated yesterday to team members who do not hold UK passports in an internal LSE email.

Alistair Jarvis, deputy chief executive of Universities UK, said foreign academics played an "important role" in providing advice and expertise to the government.

"As the UK prepares for Brexit, it is important that those in government responsible for negotiating the UK's exit from the EU have access to the very best possible advice and expertise available, regardless of the nationality of the individual providing it," he added.

"Experts of all nationalities at British universities specialising in areas such as European policy, law, economics, trade and other relevant fields are well qualified to offer expert support to the UK government."

I don't think I can clearly express my opinion on such a decision while following Dakka rules, so I'll just leave the link and text here.

**reds8n**

" Every EU migrant can stay after Brexit: 600,000 will be given amnesty by 2019, Home Office research predicts "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/07/every-eu-migrant-can-stay-after-brexit-600000-will-be-given-amne/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

" EU nationals currently living in Britain will be allowed to stay following Brexit, after the Home Office discovered that five in six could not legally be deported.

There are around 3.6 million EU citizens living in the UK, more than 80 per cent of whom will have permanent residency rights by the time Britain leaves the union in early 2019, official research has concluded.

The remainder – more than 600,000 people – will be offered an amnesty, with several Cabinet ministers telling The Telegraph that those citizens will be offered the right to stay permanently, in a policy that may prove controversial."

... so the racist " send'em all home" element who voted for brexit are let down whilst simultaneously we make make every non national feel deeply uncomfortable and unwelcome.

Whilst the govt. has shelved plans for companies to publish lists of the nationalities of there workers, but there may well be official -- ie secret Govt. only lists -- of foreign nationals employment.

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/785047683992002560

"Greening says public won't see list of foreign workers employed by companies. Only the government will."

A secret list, that sounds so much better.

The "plans" have been attacked, among those against the idea is Steve Hilton

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/home-affairs/immigration/news/79693/former-cameron-aide-steve-hilton-attacks-divisive

That's the same guy who wanted to suspend all workers/workplace rights to "see what would happen"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/8667058/David-Camerons-senior-adviser-Steve-Hilton-suggests-UK-should-abolish-maternity-leave.html

UKIP continue to descend into anarchy. with Farage promising/threatening to return.

This has led to once senior UKIP members making various claims, including that he used party funds to pay off his/one of his mistresses.

amongst other allegations

https://twitter.com/Jay_Beecher

what a time to be alive eh ?

**Herzlos**

This would make an epic TV drama, if only it wasn't so fething tragic :(

**Kilkrazy**

With the Labour Party in turmoil, UKIP a shed full of clowns having a custard pie fight, and the Lib-Dems still apparently hated by most of their natural supporters, only the SNP stands between the Tory Party and domination of the UK. And they rather sensibly are planning to blow the scene ASAP.

Secret lists of foreign workers, perhaps a "quota"...

What if you run a translation/localisation company? What if you are Honda or Toyota (huge employers) and seem to have rather a lot of Japanese in your higher management?

WTF?

**r_squared**

Yep, apparently BREXIT actually means opening the floodgates to iffy legislation that you thought you'd never get through in your wettest right wing dream.
Thankfully we had LBC, and quotes from mein kampf to see that one off.
What's next on the Tory agenda I wonder? Seeing as they're in the "centre" now.

**Stranger83**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
It would appear as though experts are OK, after all. As long as they're British, that is.

Brexit: LSE foreign experts 'should not advise ministers'

The London School of Economics says some of its academics have been barred from advising the Foreign Office on Brexit because they are not British.

The university said the leader of a project had been told only UK passport-holders should be involved in talks on national security and foreign trade.

But the Foreign Office said nothing had changed following Brexit.

It said it would "continue to take advice from the best and brightest minds, regardless of nationality".

Former Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg, now the party's EU spokesman, said: "It is utterly baffling the government is turning down expert, independent advice on Brexit simply because someone is from another country.

"This is yet more evidence of the Conservatives' alarming embrace of petty chauvinism over rational policymaking."

A spokesman for the LSE said that after the referendum, a team of fewer than 10 researchers had been charged with providing policy advice to help ministers troubleshoot any issues that might arise as the process of leaving the EU progresses.
'No longer qualify'

In a statement, the LSE said: "We believe our academics, including non-UK nationals, have hugely valuable expertise, which will be vital in this time of uncertainty around the UK's relationship with Europe and the rest of the world.

"Any changes to security measures are a matter for the UK government."

A spokesman for the Foreign Office said: "The FCO regularly works with academic institutions to assist in its policy research, and nothing has changed as a result of the referendum.

"It has always been the case that anyone working in the FCO may require security clearance depending on the nature and duration of their work.

"Britain is an outward-looking nation and we will continue to take advice from the best and brightest minds, regardless of nationality."

The LSE's assistant professor Sara Hagemann wrote on Twitter she was no longer wanted on the project.

The Danish academic joined the university's European Institute in September 2009 and is regarded as a leading commentator on European Union affairs.

She tweeted: "UK govt previously sought work& advice from best experts. Just told I & many colleagues no longer qualify as not UKcitizens #Brexit @LSEnews".

The information was communicated yesterday to team members who do not hold UK passports in an internal LSE email.

Alistair Jarvis, deputy chief executive of Universities UK, said foreign academics played an "important role" in providing advice and expertise to the government.

"As the UK prepares for Brexit, it is important that those in government responsible for negotiating the UK's exit from the EU have access to the very best possible advice and expertise available, regardless of the nationality of the individual providing it," he added.

"Experts of all nationalities at British universities specialising in areas such as European policy, law, economics, trade and other relevant fields are well qualified to offer expert support to the UK government."

I don't think I can clearly express my opinion on such a decision while following Dakka rules, so I'll just leave the link and text here.

I've read your quote, I'm not sure what the problem is. Nobody has said that they cannot have the role because they are not British - that's the assumption that the people who lost out have made. If you don't pass the advanced security checks then you cannot get the role, having once applied for a role that needed advanced checks and failing myself I can assure you that it isn't just 'Your not British'.

Advanced security checks really are advanced, I lost out because an Uncle of mine had once been declared bankrupt. This reads to me like they have been told they don't qualify and have made the choice to assume it's because they are not British.

**Slaphead**

Can someone please explain to me why people are so desperate to be part of the EU?

What is so wonderful, rosy and special that they want to be part of it no matter what?

**Future War Cultist**

Slaphead wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why people are so desperate to be part of the EU?

What is so wonderful, rosy and special that they want to be part of it no matter what?

A part of me suspects that for some their love for the EU is a great proverbial stick to beat 'less enlightened' people over the head with. It doesn't matter how much it's failing; supporting it automatically makes you a better person than those who don't.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Slaphead wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why people are so desperate to be part of the EU?

What is so wonderful, rosy and special that they want to be part of it no matter what?

You're not interested in knowing. You're asking a loaded question that's already slanted towards the conclusion that the EU is bad. I'll humor you anyway though:

The EU as a bloc is far more powerful than any of the constituent parts. It's much easier for the EU to get a good trade deal with China than it would be for, say, Belgium on its own.

The EU makes it easier to make sure that no country jumps off the slippery slope into madness. By having a set of rules that everyone involved has agreed to play by, the risk of any individual country doing something insane is lessened.

The EU is currently the biggest market in the world. The economic factor of being part of the EU is a staggeringly powerful argument in favour of the EU.

Do you need the EU for any of these? Absolutely not. Does the EU make all of the above far easier to achieve? Absolutely.

Future War Cultist wrote:
Slaphead wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why people are so desperate to be part of the EU?

What is so wonderful, rosy and special that they want to be part of it no matter what?

A part of me suspects that for some their love for the EU is a great proverbial stick to beat 'less enlightened' people over the head with. It doesn't matter how much it's failing; supporting it automatically makes you a better person than those who don't.

As opposed to trash talking people where the people you're trash talking can see you do it?

**Future War Cultist**

@ Almighty Walrus

If the EU is so good at negotiating trade deals then why is TTIP going to take about ten years? And that's provided that it doesn't collapse altogether? And why is China getting fed up negotiating with the EU too?

The problem is, when you have nearly thirty very different countries all with their own agendas, trying to get a one size fits all deal is going to be a lot harder than taking them on separately.

P.S:

And I stand by what I said because it's the vibe I get from every EU supporter I encounter. It's pointless arguing with them because 'you're just a bigot'.

**Herzlos**

Slaphead wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why people are so desperate to be part of the EU?

What is so wonderful, rosy and special that they want to be part of it no matter what?

It's not something we need to be part of no matter what, but it does good things and generally keeps the individual governments in check (look at what the tories are already proposing).

It's generated a huge amount of arts/science funding, and a lot of urban regeneration projects that local governments wouldn't touch. Then there's all the little 'red tape' that is generally anti-corporation and makes life better for it's inhabitants - banning of roaming charges, standardized phone chargers, environmental controls. Freedom of movement*. We would have none of that if it was up to our governments. Can you remember what a mess it was when every phone model had it's own proprietary charger? Remember having to pay £1/minute to take a call from Europe?

Lets flip it round; what does anyone see that's so great about leaving the EU, that they are willing to throw away all the good stuff from the EU?

*Some of us value it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Future War Cultist wrote:
If the EU is so good at negotiating trade deals then why is TTIP going to take about ten years?

Because it's a complex issue that needs 10 years of debate? TTIP is a good example though, without the EU we'd be bullied into taking it and be getting royally screwed already, whereas the EU is big enough to resist it and has done.

**r_squared**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Slaphead wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why people are so desperate to be part of the EU?

What is so wonderful, rosy and special that they want to be part of it no matter what?

A part of me suspects that for some their love for the EU is a great proverbial stick to beat 'less enlightened' people over the head with. It doesn't matter how much it's failing; supporting it automatically makes you a better person than those who don't.

That looks like its your own feelings of inferiority being projected onto others to satisfy yourself that you're the victim against external aggressors.

And I agree with Walrus, it was just a loaded question designed to elicit a specific response. He also answered it very well and certainly reflected my feelings on the EU, and perhaps most of the other supporters of the EU, however, I can't speak for them.

Funnily enough, feeling "superior" didn't appear in any conversation I can remember before BREXIT as a reason to remain. Feelings of superiority tend to lean people towards a certain political outlook thats become more prevalent after the vote though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Future War Cultist wrote:
...
And I stand by what I said because it's the vibe I get from every EU supporter I encounter. It's pointless arguing with them because 'you're just a bigot'.

I've never met you so I can't say, but if they have and they say that, then maybe you are?

**AlmightyWalrus**

If your defense against being called a bigot by someone is to paint every member of a large group in a negative light based on your experience with a small sub-set of that group I don't really know what to say to you. Keep digging that hole if that's what you want.

**Slaphead**

I would like to refer people to this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

Nineteen Eighty-Four, often published as 1984, is a dystopian novel by English author George Orwell published in 1949.The novel is set in Airstrip One (formerly known as Great Britain), a province of the superstate Oceania in a world of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance and public manipulation, dictated by a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (or Ingsoc in the government's invented language, Newspeak) under the control of a privileged elite of the Inner Party, that persecutes individualism and independent thinking as "thoughtcrime."

Does it ring any bells with anyone?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

For anybody who is worried about what was said during the Tory party conference, I have this to say:

The Tory conference is an opportunity for these Blairites in blue to pretend to be Tories for a few days every year, throw a bit red meat to their dwindling members, and generally talk like Dirty Harry when it comes to crime and immigration.

As always, when it's all over, crazy ideas get binned, people like Amber Rudd get sidelined, and the country goes back to normal...

And all of this will be repeated next year.

In short, people have nothing to worry about. The Tories have always talked like Dirty Harry, and walked like Chief Wiggam.

**Future War Cultist**

@ r_squared and Almighty Walrus

It's common for people who've lost the argument to resort to name calling.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Future War Cultist wrote:
@ r_squared and Almighty Walrus

It's common for people who've lost the argument to resort to name calling.

Although I disagree with them on the EU, I've always found r_squared and Almighty Walrus to be polite and well mannered when putting their points across.

As I've said before, this is one of the very few forums where a robust, but reasoned debate on the EU can be had.

Long may it continue.

**r_squared**

Slaphead wrote:
I would like to refer people to this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

Nineteen Eighty-Four, often published as 1984, is a dystopian novel by English author George Orwell published in 1949.The novel is set in Airstrip One (formerly known as Great Britain), a province of the superstate Oceania in a world of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance and public manipulation, dictated by a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (or Ingsoc in the government's invented language, Newspeak) under the control of a privileged elite of the Inner Party, that persecutes individualism and independent thinking as "thoughtcrime."

Does it ring any bells with anyone?

Lol.

Good thing we have Boris and Theresa to defend us against such a nightmare.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Future War Cultist wrote:
@ r_squared and Almighty Walrus

It's common for people who've lost the argument to resort to name calling.

Here's your quote again for context:

Future War Cultist wrote:

A part of me suspects that for some their love for the EU is a great proverbial stick to beat 'less enlightened' people over the head with. It doesn't matter how much it's failing; supporting it automatically makes you a better person than those who don't.

You're generalizing every pro-EU member on this board and then complaining about being called a bigot. I find that a good way to not get called a bigot is to not make bigoted arguments. To complain about namecalling when we're explicitly identifying the part where you're being bigoted is disdainful, dishonorable and low. We're calling out the fact that what you said was bigoted. If you dislike that, perhaps you should consider what you're actually posting.

**Ketara**

It is sadly, one of the few things I've observed over the years. One side labels the others smallminded xenophobic bigots with outdated world views, and their counterparts respond by calling them arrogant, selfish, narrowminded hypocrites.

And in all fairness, both are right for the most part.

I've started to feel somewhat fatigued with politics of late, it all just gets depressing if you spend too much time thinking or talking about it. So few people seem able to just have a relatively friendly impersonal chat about it, followed by a pint (metaphorical or literal). It always seems to just descend into mudslinging, and everyone seems to take it all so seriously this last few years.

As someone who subscribes to the British doctine of viewing people with fervent political beliefs the same way as you view people with fervent religious beliefs (i.e. with mild suspicion coupled with humour), it's all become quite exhausting.

**r_squared**

Herzlos wrote:
...It's generated a huge amount of arts/science funding, and a lot of urban regeneration projects that local governments wouldn't touch. Then there's all the little 'red tape' that is generally anti-corporation and makes life better for it's inhabitants - banning of roaming charges, standardized phone chargers, environmental controls. Freedom of movement*. We would have none of that if it was up to our governments. Can you remember what a mess it was when every phone model had it's own proprietary charger? Remember having to pay £1/minute to take a call from Europe?

Lets flip it round; what does anyone see that's so great about leaving the EU, that they are willing to throw away all the good stuff from the EU?

*Some of us value it.
....

It's a good question, but I suppose it depends on what value you place on membership, and how it affects you. Moot point now really.

However, now we have a "date", we may start to see things start to change.
Investments are wobbling a bit and sterling is taking a pummelling, http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-economy-idUKKCN1290ZR
Not really unexpected, business and markets hate any sort of uncertainty and are bound to react cautiously. If we some how manage to galvanise the country, including the reluctant leavers, then maybe confidence will return, and we'll do well. But personally I think we're looking towards a right hammering financially for the next 10 years.

Ed Milliband is also venting, talking to pro-Europe Tories to try a force May to pull back from a hard brexit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ed-miliband-brexit-theresa-may_uk_57fa7e6ee4b01fa2b904485f?utm_hp_ref=uk

“My great worry is that while there will be a vote on repealing the 1972 European Communities Act, which is about the decision to leave the EU, it will be left to the executive alone to decide the terms of Brexit. That would not be remotely acceptable,” he told the newspaper.

It does seem quite gak that the shape of BREXIT, now that it is being carried out, is solely being crafted by the new Tory "centre". A govt that has in the space of a week partially retracted one proposal after realising that mein kampf is not a suitable source of policy.
What other shenanigans are they upto? And if they're so out of step with the thinking of their people, and confused about what they want, then tbh, it bodes terribly for them negotiating on our behalf.
Admittedly, if they do balls it up, they will get destroyed in the next few GEs, which will be nice. As long as we have someone else to vote for of course.

I'm thinking of voting for the SNP myself, just need to get a candidate in the East Midlands. Might be easier to move to Lossiemouth again.

**Herzlos**

Ketara wrote:

I've started to feel somewhat fatigued with politics of late, it all just gets depressing if you spend too much time thinking or talking about it. So few people seem able to just have a relatively friendly impersonal chat about it, followed by a pint (metaphorical or literal). It always seems to just descend into mudslinging, and everyone seems to take it all so seriously this last few years.

I think I've also hit a politics fatigue, and it's just turning me into a miserable, cynical, git

**Future War Cultist**

@ Ketara

I have to agree. Political discourse has just gotten so nasty recently. Or maybe it was always nasty and I'm only just realising how bad it is. And it's wearing me out too, because disagreements over politics are destroying my relationships with people.

My brother is no longer speaking to me because I voted to leave the EU, except to tell me that I'm an donkey-cave. He's not happy that I don't think much of Jermony Corbyn either. Even my dad has cooled in his attitude to me for voting to leave. And some longtime friends don't want to know me either anymore. It's hard not to be a little crushed.

And I've also fallen out with so many people here on this very forum over politics. You know, I don't think I want to do it anymore. It's destroying me emotionally.

**r_squared**

Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Ketara

I have to agree. Political discourse has just gotten so nasty recently. Or maybe it was always nasty and I'm only just realising how bad it is. And it's wearing me out too, because disagreements over politics are destroying my relationships with people. My brother is no longer speaking to me because I voted to leave the EU, except to tell me that I'm an donkey-cave. He's not happy that I don't think much of Jermony Corbyn either. Even my dad has cooled in his attitude to me for voting to leave. And some longtime friends don't want to know me either anymore. It's hard not to be a little crushed.....

That's quite sad, I feel bad for you. My brother and I have not dared to talk about it ourselves. I'm fairly sure that we are on opposite sides of the fence too, and I think we know it would be destructive to bring it up, so we haven't done.
I've not lost friends over it, I've been lucky, but i know people who have. My best mate was leave, but we chat quite comfortably about it, and did do throughout. I suppose because we weren't trying to change each other's minds, and politically we respect each other, even though he's a Tory too.

This whole thing has been massively divisive, and angry, and intense. It's going to take a while for that sort of thing to heal, more so than any policy, politics or economy.

**notprop**

[All] "Lets be friends".

[Europhile] "Group hug?"

[Britton] [Monocle falls from eye into tea.] "I say, whatever next?"

**reds8n**

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/housing-crisis-inheritance-grandparents-a7353456.html

Inheritance should go directly to grandchildren to help ease housing crisis, says housing minister
'I've got a nice home', says Gavin Barwell

.........

Mr Barwell's comments follow controversial claims he made at the Conservative Party conference that private housing developers should build homes with smaller rooms that do not meet existing minimum space standards so that young people can afford to buy them.

Personally I had absolutely no idea that one could buy a house with a near lame dog, a flatcap, an increased chance of arthritis and some old Le Carre novels but am immensely reassured that this is possible, even if I might not be able to fit into the house.

feth me where do we dig these people up from ?

**Herzlos**

I don't think they need to make them under minimum standards, I think they should be focusing on smaller properties (less rooms*) and without all the luxury** fittings.

A lot of inheritance goes to grandchildren anyway. People are living longer and their children are usually well established, bordering on retiring, before they pass on.

*Plenty of 3+ Bedroom places where I am, but very little in the way of 1 Bedroom/studio places

** Every new build I've seen has had "Luxury" in the description title. I assume this means they've used fancier looking fittings and a higher markup.

**Slaphead**

@ Future War Cultist - I am very sorry to hear that. It is such a shame when people fall out with each other just for having their own beliefs. We cannot change how we think. Hope you and your brother eventually reconcile.

Yes, I too dislike Corbyn and his policies, and like you, I don't have anything against someone that believes in him. That's their choice not mine.

To put it into perspective, voting for either Brexit or Remain is not the same as killing someone or some other heinous crime, it is just a personal preference to a particular political system.

Part of the issue as to why people get wound up is all the propaganda by the media (on both sides!). The different parts of the mainstream media have their own political agendas, are funded and/or controlled by very rich people, and clearly use emotions like fear and anger to try and control us all. If people were not worked up about something then they would not dance to those trying to control us.

If we want to be angry with someone, be angry with the media for constantly shoving ridiculous propaganda and half truths in our faces all the time.

**Future War Cultist**

@ Slaphead

Thank you. I don't see us reconciling anytime soon but I'll live in hope.

And you make very good points too. The media has a lot to answer for.

**Kilkrazy**

Slaphead wrote:
Can someone please explain to me why people are so desperate to be part of the EU?

What is so wonderful, rosy and special that they want to be part of it no matter what?

Access to the common market, freedom of movement, a break with "Little Britain" thinking, appreciation of different cultures...