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Can you blame us for getting out while we still can?
My opposition to the EU is well known, but I never expected the Tories to handle things so badly.
Boris Johnson appearing before the Foreign affairs select committee today was a disgrace. Absolute clueless.
And these are the people with our future in their hands...
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
No, tbh, I am now in strong agreement that the Scots should be allowed to control their own destiny. It has never been clearer to me, than it has been over the last 6 months, that Scotland's interests and future rest outside of the political union of the UK, they are not being well served by Westminster.
Before, as a centre left voter, and having many friends and family north of the border, I felt that we were close enough politically and socially for the union to be viable. Now I would prefer to have a strong, friendly partnership with Scotland based on an equal footing without one dictating to the other.
in all probability that maybe with a Scotland outside of the EU, if they're in, then it may provide all sorts of new problems. I'm undecided on that aspect, but thankfully it's not really my decision.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Slaphead wrote: I don't think people should be linking to BBC articles to prove their point. The BBC is extremely biased towards the left and the EU.
I think viewing any news source is fair, if you are aware of the shortfalls (I like RT, but don't expect it to run anything anti-Putin). The more breadth, the better.
Yeah, they're saying that Cameron is up there with Lord North, the man who lost America. That's how low Cameron's rep has sunk.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 18:07:12
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Cameron for sure shat his political pants with the EU referendum.
Quite apart from the stupidity of granting it, when people like Gove declared for the "Leave" side they should immediately have been kicked out of office as opponents of the government policy they had sworn to carry out. Of course Cameron was subject to internal Tory party forces that are hard for the external observer to comprehend.
It puts Major and "the bastards" in perspective. My respect for Major has increased over the years, despite him being monochrome and wearing his underpants outside his trousers.
To be fair, he did inherit the mess from the Blair/Brown era crash so, naturally people's opinion of him will be poor. Credit where it's due though, the Con-Dem coalition and Conservative govt have more or less, pulled the UK out of the financial gak of the 2008 recession. Even if the austerity did give people a kicking.
@r_squared: Just as the UK had a wake-up call when we voted to leave the EU, Scotland will have an even bigger one if they decide to leave the UK...
To be fair, he did inherit the mess from the Blair/Brown era crash so, naturally people's opinion of him will be poor. Credit where it's due though, the Con-Dem coalition and Conservative govt have more or less, pulled the UK out of the financial gak of the 2008 recession. Even if the austerity did give people a kicking.
...
I'm not being funny but you're wrong about that.
Osborne left the public finances in a far worse state than Darling. Osborne missed his own deficit reduction targets time after time, because his basic policy was wrong. We still have a massive current account deficit, a massive balance of payments deficit, a massive national debt, massive imbalance of services versus export industry, etc etc despite years of Osborne's policy to overturn these factors.
All this despite public service workers being limited to 1% pay rise for several years (except for top executives, of course) and the rest of us getting a kicking from zero hours contracts, inflation and so on.
We all need to get ready for another serious kicking as Brexit may cause a 9.5% fall in GDP. This on top of 8 years of stagnation after the "Triumph of Capitalism" will be very bad news indeed for the bottom 99% of the population.
It does kind of fly in the face of the idea that the Conservatives are the party of fiscal responsibility.
They have single handedly fethed the country over for the next few decades with their gambling shenanigans.
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angelofvengeance wrote: ....@r_squared: Just as the UK had a wake-up call when we voted to leave the EU, Scotland will have an even bigger one if they decide to leave the UK...
I'm sure they will be well aware of that fact. However, I would argue that arguments over dire fiscal penalties maybe just as effective in indyref2 as they were in the EU ref. I imagine that the desire for sovereignty and independence from an unrepresentative beaurocracy would be as compelling a reason for the Scottish to vote to leave our union as we were as mindful of those reasons when we voted to leave the EU.
I'm sure there maybe many in Scotland willing to take the financial hit to enjoy becoming masters of their own destiny. I'm not Scottish, it's not upto me, but I now support their right to do so. I know for a fact that several of my friends north of the border who voted to stay in the UK at the last referendum now feel liberated by the EU referendum to vote to leave the UK.
I can't help but agree with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 23:06:46
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
Let's not forget this is legally unchartered waters, it may well be they can just walk out of the UK and keep their membership. There is no legal precedence for this so it's going to come down to a lot of interpretation from a lot of lawyers.
(Assuming they vote leave themselves)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/13 23:30:52
"As a customer, I'd really like to like GW, but they seem to hate me." - Ouze "All politicians are upperclass idiots"
To be fair, he did inherit the mess from the Blair/Brown era crash so, naturally people's opinion of him will be poor. Credit where it's due though, the Con-Dem coalition and Conservative govt have more or less, pulled the UK out of the financial gak of the 2008 recession. Even if the austerity did give people a kicking.
...
I'm not being funny but you're wrong about that.
Osborne left the public finances in a far worse state than Darling. Osborne missed his own deficit reduction targets time after time, because his basic policy was wrong. We still have a massive current account deficit, a massive balance of payments deficit, a massive national debt, massive imbalance of services versus export industry, etc etc despite years of Osborne's policy to overturn these factors.
All this despite public service workers being limited to 1% pay rise for several years (except for top executives, of course) and the rest of us getting a kicking from zero hours contracts, inflation and so on.
We all need to get ready for another serious kicking as Brexit may cause a 9.5% fall in GDP. This on top of 8 years of stagnation after the "Triumph of Capitalism" will be very bad news indeed for the bottom 99% of the population.
To be fair, he did inherit the mess from the Blair/Brown era crash so, naturally people's opinion of him will be poor. Credit where it's due though, the Con-Dem coalition and Conservative govt have more or less, pulled the UK out of the financial gak of the 2008 recession. Even if the austerity did give people a kicking.
...
I'm not being funny but you're wrong about that.
Osborne left the public finances in a far worse state than Darling. Osborne missed his own deficit reduction targets time after time, because his basic policy was wrong. We still have a massive current account deficit, a massive balance of payments deficit, a massive national debt, massive imbalance of services versus export industry, etc etc despite years of Osborne's policy to overturn these factors.
All this despite public service workers being limited to 1% pay rise for several years (except for top executives, of course) and the rest of us getting a kicking from zero hours contracts, inflation and so on.
We all need to get ready for another serious kicking as Brexit may cause a 9.5% fall in GDP. This on top of 8 years of stagnation after the "Triumph of Capitalism" will be very bad news indeed for the bottom 99% of the population.
Thanks, Obama!
Freedom isn't free, as they say.
It depends on your definition of freedom, and how that relates to a jar of marmite. I'm looking forward to exercising my extra freedom in the near future.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
It depends on your definition of freedom, and how that relates to a jar of marmite. I'm looking forward to exercising my extra freedom in the near future.
Don't know about you guys but I'm really excited to exercise my freedom to need a visa to travel in Europe
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Donald Tusk, Jean-Claude - Juncker, Angela Merkel, Neil Kinnock...
Your boys took one hell of a beating!!!
Britain 1 EU 0
Apparently Unilever try and bump up the prices every year, using whatever excuse seems most fitting at the time, and are usually told to feth off by their customers. So this isn't a victory either way, beyond a greedy company getting told to feth off again.
It depends on your definition of freedom, and how that relates to a jar of marmite. I'm looking forward to exercising my extra freedom in the near future.
Don't know about you guys but I'm really excited to exercise my freedom to need a visa to travel in Europe
This is one of the things that'll annoy me most. I know it's not going to be hard to get a visa sorted, and I'll probably be able to do it at the airport without having to visit an Embassy, but it's still going to add at least 30 minutes to any UK->EU journey because of the VISA check point. Not too bad if you only fly to Costa Del England for 2 weeks every year, but if you travel to the EU a lot, it's going to be a huge fething waste of time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/14 07:53:45
Unilever and all companies try to push up prices when they can, because inflation forces them to quite apart from any considerations of trying to increase profits.
In this case Unilever used the excuse of the GBP's weakness to try and justify jacking up the price on goods produced in the UK. Tesco held the line and Unilever have backed down.
However this is a temporary victory. Anything that the UK imports is now more expansive than a couple of weeks ago, and thanks to oil prices, is also more expensive to move around the country (this also applies to domestically produced goods.)
At some point in time these inflationary pressures will become irresistible and consumer prices will rise.
The hope is that UK exports will also rise because they are relatively cheaper now. There will need to be a substantial rise to compensate since our balance of payments was already negative before the collapse of the GBP.
notprop wrote: So basically the same as it's always been....
Not quite. Unless you're one of those who doesn't think leaving the EU will make any difference? I'll also be interested to see if the forced positivity will still be around when the real action starts.
Just be mindful of Fleet Street, the Express is watching. Make sure you don't get caught remoaning. That would be un-British, and disloyal to her Maj.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
I read an excellent post on a newspaper forum saying the cost of Trident and Hinkley will skyrocket because they will need a shed load of steel to build them, which has to be imported, weak pound, and so on and so on...
Normally, when costs go through the roof like this, a sensible government would pull the plug, but the Tories will cite punching above our weight, world leader, and the usual horsegak for ploughing on, with the poor old British taxpayer footing the rising bill as usual...
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notprop wrote: Do you take allot of notice of papers you do not read?
Don't panic, I don't think the Express' Editor will be sending his/her cardigan clad bovver boys round for you!
Admit it, you've only ever been interested in how the building industry will be affected!
Your gravy train days are over - its hit the buffers
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Kilkrazy wrote: Unilever and all companies try to push up prices when they can, because inflation forces them to quite apart from any considerations of trying to increase profits.
In this case Unilever used the excuse of the GBP's weakness to try and justify jacking up the price on goods produced in the UK. Tesco held the line and Unilever have backed down.
However this is a temporary victory. Anything that the UK imports is now more expansive than a couple of weeks ago, and thanks to oil prices, is also more expensive to move around the country (this also applies to domestically produced goods.)
At some point in time these inflationary pressures will become irresistible and consumer prices will rise.
The hope is that UK exports will also rise because they are relatively cheaper now. There will need to be a substantial rise to compensate since our balance of payments was already negative before the collapse of the GBP.
You must have missed the Tory party conference. Andrea Leadsom's solution to food production and rural woes was something along the lines of digging for victory!
Expect to see Dr Carrot and Potato Pete posters making a comeback on a wall near you.
It depends on your definition of freedom, and how that relates to a jar of marmite. I'm looking forward to exercising my extra freedom in the near future.
Don't know about you guys but I'm really excited to exercise my freedom to need a visa to travel in Europe
You've still got 2 years left of visa free travel.
That's Farage's excuse for turning up in Brussels to milk the taxpayers' money for all it's worth.
He will fight them in the bars, the plush restaurants, the hills and beaches of Belgium. He will never surrender!
Seriously, though, he will be there to the last minute, and is estimated to be looking at a million pounds or euros or something
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/14 15:11:07
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
You must have missed the Tory party conference. Andrea Leadsom's solution to food production and rural woes was something along the lines of digging for victory!
Expect to see Dr Carrot and Potato Pete posters making a comeback on a wall near you.
I think I found her ideological hero:
She must've managed to find a copy of his book
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/14 15:17:05
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
The hope is that UK exports will also rise because they are relatively cheaper now. There will need to be a substantial rise to compensate since our balance of payments was already negative before the collapse of the GBP.
That might not be visible with common people. Last time currency value crashed in finland prices went up but wages etc didn't. Best common people could hope exports went up to not get laid off
Trident doesn't use much steel. An SSBN only displaces a few thousand tons. I know that seems a lot but it's pretty small in the overall view of the economy.
The Hinckley contract is fixed price, meaning that it is the French who will get it in the neck, but they are going to import their own or Chinese steel which of course won't be priced in GBP anyway.
The fly in the Hinckley contractual ointment is the guaranteed price per megawatt of 3x market price for 30 years. The fall of the GDP probably doesn't make any difference to us, since we will be paying for British based electricity in GDP, and it will hurt EDF who do their accounting in Euros like any important European company.
With a bit of luck EDF may go bankrupt and pull down the French government and the economy of western Europe with them.
The hope is that UK exports will also rise because they are relatively cheaper now. There will need to be a substantial rise to compensate since our balance of payments was already negative before the collapse of the GBP.
That might not be visible with common people. Last time currency value crashed in finland prices went up but wages etc didn't. Best common people could hope exports went up to not get laid off
Yes indeed. People on low incomes are going to be hurting badly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/14 22:53:17
I keep hearing doom and gloom left, right, and center, but tourism is up 2%, and exports are booming like never before...
Crisis? What crisis?
Ok, I jest a bit, but things are not that bad..
We will survive.
It's not really as simple as this. We don't know what the usual statistical variance is in the tourism. If year on year it can fluctuate by +-5% (noting the pleasant summer we have just had) then this 2% growth is insignificant because it is within normal variation. However if we suppose the normal variation is +-0.05% so the reported 2% increase has an approx 99.9% probability of being 'real' then we still have to know where this increase is coming from. If a significant fraction, say 50% comes from stay at home holidays then this can still be bad news for the economy as overall expenditure can still be down; it's just the holiday agency's and airlines that struggle. Even in a recession some companies circumstances improve because they allow people to still go on holiday at cheaper cost.
Exports are also tricky because it depends on what is increasing. You really want long term steady manageable growth to sustain the economy. Not short term blips. Take for example a company selling toilet rolls. If a foreign company usually buys 10000 per year but because the pound is weak they buy 20000 to cover themselves for two years that means much less income next year for the toilet roll company as the purchaser has bulk bought for the long term (just like we might do). It might benefit the company briefly if they have the spare capacity now, but next year they have to find someone else to fill the gap.
If the exports are food then at can also be bad news for the uk population as well. If a farmer was selling milk at £1 per litre (example figures) to both a uk and foreign buyer then with the a drop in the pound then the foreign buyers cost suddenly drops massively. They find that the equivalent cost to them is now much cheaper. They can actually offer a much better price, the farmer still gets more money, the foreign buyer is still getting a bargain. The issue is that the domestic market must then adjust to the higher equivalent price and your food costs increase - that reduces disposable income, drives inflation and risks that introduces.
So in essence it's the details that are important to understand the dynamics of the increasing trade.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Without trying to pile on the neurotic worry over nothing, this article has me mildly concerned.
Since the UK has sunk all its financial eggs into the Services basket, it's uncomfortable reading to see that only a "love of London" is the deciding factor for the personnel that would complicate a mass exodus of Bankers to Paris or Frankfurt. What about the fact that these business are seriously considering the viability of moving operations elsewhere?
However, some senior staff might remain based in London and commute to Paris by high-speed train, he said, adding: "If my family weren't happy, I wouldn't move."
The miserable thing about that statement is that appears to be a "solution" in their mind. Not the fact that the jobs and business' themselves have buggered off, only leaving us with commuting senior bankers gadding about the place, salting cash in every tax haven nook and cranny.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984
r_squared wrote: Without trying to pile on the neurotic worry over nothing, this article has me mildly concerned.
Since the UK has sunk all its financial eggs into the Services basket, it's uncomfortable reading to see that only a "love of London" is the deciding factor for the personnel that would complicate a mass exodus of Bankers to Paris or Frankfurt. What about the fact that these business are seriously considering the viability of moving operations elsewhere?
However, some senior staff might remain based in London and commute to Paris by high-speed train, he said, adding: "If my family weren't happy, I wouldn't move."
The miserable thing about that statement is that appears to be a "solution" in their mind. Not the fact that the jobs and business' themselves have buggered off, only leaving us with commuting senior bankers gadding about the place, salting cash in every tax haven nook and cranny.
Lets be frank. France has been jumping up and down with glee over Brexit as they have wanted to claw the finance sector away from the UK for some time. They want that sweet tax revenue and status for doing relatively little. Paris would be an ideal base for the money to continue furthering their own aims within the Union.
Brexit may do what legislation hadn't accomplished.
It'll be a severe blow if a mass exodus of banking businesses happens though. I'm not panicking just yet, but am watching with considered interest how things move.
Yeah, Berlin has been actively canvassing for them to move there too.
I think the passport issue for banking/trading is going to be a massive point in the talks.
As our main saving graces appear to be A : not many brits speak a 2nd language and would struggle abroad , and B London -- especially if you have ££££/$$$$$s is a great place to live -although one would suggest a substantial part of that might be due to those pesky immigrants doing various things ... we're in with a shout for sure.
It's not like Paris or Berlin are also great cities of the world....
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Legion: Dark Angels 
