UK Politics

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**Skullhammer**

So planing a single forge world squad then heisperus? That wage should just cover it. Lol.

On a serious note all public services are failing, mainly because goverments only think and plan for 4/5 years as thats parliment, just look at how long other projects take i.e. heathrow expansion no goverment wants to take a stand so in the long grass it goes as any decision may not be to popular and might be used against the party at a later date.

Which brings us back to short termizum and only looking after number one and not the longer term good of the country. If it doesnt show results quickly politicos dont want to know. At least thats what it seems like. Sad really.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Mr. Burning wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Whilst everybody is focused on Trump and Brexit, the real stuff, the bread and butter issues, are getting neglected.

I was watching Going Underground on RT, and the focus was on Prison services and probation services in England and Wales. Unsurprisingly, it is a complete shambles.

Prisons are war zones, staff morale is rock bottom, and the Tories are clueless as ever.

They want to recruit more staff, but £23,000 for the London area as a starting salary is a joke, and understandably, many are deserting the prison service for safer and better paying jobs.

Probation is no better. 50% of all criminals are re-offending after their first year out, in England and Wales, which is the worst in Western Europe.

The other area for concern is library closures and street cleaning. British streets are some of the untidiest in Western Europe, and with cash strapped councils cutting back on this and libraries, God knows what we're going to have left in 10 years.

People, let's not take our eye off the ball - the bread and butter stuff is equally as important, and everybody seems distracted by Trump and Brexit.

More privatisation is the answer!!!!!

Prisons and offender management are a fething gakshow. You can wonder why prisons are called warehouses and hate factories by their inmates. Prison should be a place for rehabilitation from the minute an offender sets foot in the door, yet they are worse places than when some of them were established (rehabilitation was the grand aim way back then). Now they are just places to hold people until their release date comes up.

More staff are needed, but who trains them? The good staff are leaving, considerate staff who have respect from their inmates because they give respect back. Whats left are the old style. 'screws' in every sense of the word, many viewing their charges as nothing more than vermin.

Probation is a grand joke, of course they have great staff but the service as a whole exists to count time down until their clients sentence ends. Once that time expires probation and NOMS have no further use for their client, job done, the book is closed. Its like the job centre and many many other branches of the civil service, if you say the right things at the right time they will have done their job.

The prison service needs to change for the better, but I doubt it will... 'Criminals' in prison and their access to TV and a pool table is still a wonderful opportunity for political point scoring.

Funnily enough, the guy in the interview was saying that even the private companies are having a hard time and struggling to make a profit out of prisons, so this is a great opportunity for the government to take back control.

Can't see May and her mob doing that though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whirlwind wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Whilst everybody is focused on Trump and Brexit, the real stuff, the bread and butter issues, are getting neglected.

I was watching Going Underground on RT, and the focus was on Prison services and probation services in England and Wales. Unsurprisingly, it is a complete shambles.

Prisons are war zones, staff morale is rock bottom, and the Tories are clueless as ever.

They want to recruit more staff, but £23,000 for the London area as a starting salary is a joke, and understandably, many are deserting the prison service for safer and better paying jobs.

Probation is no better. 50% of all criminals are re-offending after their first year out, in England and Wales, which is the worst in Western Europe.

The other area for concern is library closures and street cleaning. British streets are some of the untidiest in Western Europe, and with cash strapped councils cutting back on this and libraries, God knows what we're going to have left in 10 years.

People, let's not take our eye off the ball - the bread and butter stuff is equally as important, and everybody seems distracted by Trump and Brexit.

I'm afraid this is what comes from having a Tory government. Their ideal is low tax, no state. Yet it's the people on the lowest income are the ones hardest hit. As far as I can tell the Tories are trying to force state organisations to fail by cutting as much money as possible from their budgets and when they inevitably they do they get put into the hand of private companies to 'rescue' them

My Dad knows someone that use to work in the Prisons Service and the government has effectively cut their budget to the barest of minimum. And this isn't the only area
As pointed Libraries and other local government services are being cut back as their income is squeezed (whilst the government at the same time limits any ability to increase taxes to compensate)
Old Persons care is on it's last legs as social service staff are overworked with little time but to do the barest minimum.
The education system is faltering as more and more teachers abandon the profession
Junior doctors are looking elsewhere for jobs (for example Australia have now had to limit the number of doctors entering the company because so many are applying to enter, which IIRC was a visa free work area)
You have businesses employed to recover 'over paid' benefits money and exploiting these vulnerable and generally less educated people and so are making life as difficult as possible and using ridiculous excuses not to pay out.

All this whilst you have

The government making oil recovery from the North Sea tax free
Reducing business tax to the lowest levels ever which benefits the larger companies much more than the smaller ones
They are charging multi-billion £ profit companies minimal tax through behind doors negotiations
You have winter heating subsidies being paid to all over 65's regardless of what their income is
They are still paying £7K state pension to those earning £20k plus on private pensions (compared that to if you were employed!)
Paying over the odds for a future nuclear power station with a guaranteed price that the public will have to pay for their energy supplies whilst at the same time allowing these same companies to make billions of £'s of profit that goes to shareholders rather than renewing the required infrastructure.

One of my biggest fear with Brexit is that to encourage businesses to stay the Tories will give them more tax breaks, more benefits whilst paying for this by ruining your public services (on the basis it's good for UKplc). You probably won't see it in the pay packet, but rather those services that become useful at only specific stages in your life (but are otherwise not visible). These are easy to cut because most people at any one time aren't using them.

Even if the Tories were serious about prison reform, nobody ever won an election promising better prison conditions. Harsh but true.

And yet, it's something, especially probation, that has a big effect on society.

I agree with your last point as well - the Tories can't be trusted to put the nation first.

I voted for Brexit, and would do so again, this you know, but even I didn't expect the Tories to be this incompetent.

**SilverMK2**

reds8n wrote:

Really good video showing so much that is wrong with politics and the civil service.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Skullhammer wrote:
So planing a single forge world squad then heisperus? That wage should just cover it. Lol.

On a serious note all public services are failing, mainly because goverments only think and plan for 4/5 years as thats parliment, just look at how long other projects take i.e. heathrow expansion no goverment wants to take a stand so in the long grass it goes as any decision may not be to popular and might be used against the party at a later date.

Which brings us back to short termizum and only looking after number one and not the longer term good of the country. If it doesnt show results quickly politicos dont want to know. At least thats what it seems like. Sad really.

The short term chickens are coming home to roost. Housing is one area, and there's a good chance the lights may go out this winter.

Normally, the French bail us out, but they're having problems with their nuclear reactors.

I would advise everybody to stock up on candles and paraffin oil!

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I would advise everybody to stock up on candles and paraffin oil!

So we can have a relaxing bath whilst huffing paraffin?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I would advise everybody to stock up on candles and paraffin oil!

So we can have a relaxing bath whilst huffing paraffin?

The oil is for the paraffin lamp, you smart ass!

On a serious note, yeah it sounds like the 1950s

but I would advise people to get a good paraffin lamp or equivalent, becuase they are life savers when we get power cuts up here.

Plus never get an electric cooker

Always go for gas, because at least when the lights are out, you can still boil an egg or boil water for tea.

Any British man or woman worth their salt can handle any emergency with a cup of tea in them

Science has proved that!

**Whirlwind**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

The short term chickens are coming home to roost. Housing is one area, and there's a good chance the lights may go out this winter.

Normally, the French bail us out, but they're having problems with their nuclear reactors.

I would advise everybody to stock up on candles and paraffin oil!

That's really a factor of many things but unless we have a really bad winter (like the one in the 1963 and then we might be completely up the creek without a paddle because we wouldn't have the resources to deal with it).

There's a certain industry that fell over in the last couple of years that used a lot of electricity. If there is any silver lining to it, it does mean we have a larger reserve of electricity.

**reds8n**

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948

The government has no overall Brexit plan and a strategy may not be agreed for six months, a leaked memo prepared for the Cabinet Office suggests.
The memo - obtained by The Times and seen by the BBC - warns Whitehall is working on 500 Brexit-related projects and could need 30,000 extra staff.
However, there is still no common exit strategy "because of divisions within the cabinet", the document adds.
The government said it "didn't recognise" the claims made in the memo.
Transport Secretary Chris Grayling said he had "no idea" where the report came from.
Prime Minister Theresa May hopes to invoke Article 50 - beginning the formal two-year process for leaving the EU - by the end of March next year.
However, BBC political correspondent Chris Mason - who has seen the memo - says the document shows how "complex, fraught and challenging delivering Brexit will be".

The leaked Cabinet Office memo - written by an un-named consultant and entitled "Brexit Update" of 7 November - suggests it will take another six months before the government decides precisely what it wants to achieve from Brexit or agrees on its priorities.
The report criticises Mrs May, who it says is "acquiring a reputation of drawing in decisions and details to settle matters herself" - an approach it describes as being "unlikely to be sustainable".
The Times says the document also identifies cabinet splits between Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, Brexit Secretary David Davis and International Trade Secretary Liam Fox on one side, and Chancellor Philip Hammond and Business Secretary Greg Clark on the other.
According to the newspaper, the memo said: "Every department has developed a 'bottom-up' plan of what the impact of Brexit could be - and its plan to cope with the 'worst case'.
"Although necessary, this falls considerably short of having a 'government plan for Brexit' because it has no prioritisation and no link to the overall negotiation strategy."

The memo also suggests the government does not have enough officials to implement Brexit quickly, while departments are developing individual plans resulting in "well over 500 projects".
It estimates an additional 30,000 extra civil servants could be required to meet the workload.
The document also says big businesses could soon "point a gun at the government's head" to secure what they need to maintain jobs and investment.
It comes after Japanese car manufacturer Nissan said it had been given "support and assurances" over trading conditions once Britain leaves the EU.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Grayling said the document was not a government memo and rejected its contents.
"My own experience is very different to that," he said.
Mr Grayling said negotiations would be "complex but by no means the challenge that is set out in today's newspaper story".
Labour pledge
Meanwhile, shadow chancellor John McDonnell is due to say that the government's "shambolic" approach to Brexit is failing to equip the UK economy for leaving the EU.
In a speech later, he will say the chancellor is isolated from cabinet colleagues and "too weak" to make Brexit a success.
However, he will also say Labour will not attempt to block or delay the triggering of Article 50 in Parliament.
"To do so would put Labour against the majority will of the British people and on the side of certain corporate elites, who have always had the British people at the back of the queue," he will say.
The government is appealing against a High Court ruling that Parliament should have a say before the UK invokes Article 50.
The government's appeal is due to be heard at the Supreme Court from 5 December.

**Mr. Burning**

The memo 'suggests' a lot according to the BBC article....

Really though, the whole referendum was a shambles from start to finish. I wonder if this is deliberate policy, led by a Machiavellian mastermind, with the IQ of a brick.

If the plan was to make me just not care anymore I think it has succeeded. Go don't go.....I'm pretty much 'meh' on it at the moment.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

Tin foil hat time; the majority of MP's Tory or otherwise were pro-Remain. Ensure the efforts to initiate Article 50 and generally coordinate leaving struggle and you have grounds for giving a second referendum. With deliberate incompetence from the MP's it would be more likely that Remain would win the second vote.

**Kilkrazy**

It doesn't need any tin foil hats to explain.

The basic fact is that Cameron called the referendum because he thought it would fail (vote Remain) and this would make the UKIP and the "bastards" shut up.

Most of the elite thought it would fail, including people like Bozza, which is why he didn't decide which side to support until the last minute, and this also explains why there were no plans by anyone, especially the winning side, to cover the circumstance of a Leave win.

Other reasons for the lack of planning and progress are:

1. The country is split nearly 50/50 on the issue, meaning that MPs and cabinet ministers are conflicted.

2. The Leave side doesn't have a clear vision for what they want to achieve, so planning has to be very provisional.

3. Even if the objective was clear, the task honestly is very complicated and difficult, and it can't be solved in a few months.

In the case of a second referendum, there might be three choices on the ballot:

1. Remain.
2. Leave and rejoin on Norwegian terms.
3. Leave and stay on WTO terms pending possible future negotiations.

Under such circumstances the Leave vote inevitably would be split, depending on how people view the balance of immigration versus economic issues. A Remain vote obviously would be more likely to success. The 48% people who voted Remain originally, know what they want.

This is why hardcore Brexiteers are passionate not to have a second referendum.

**reds8n**

quick pic of the memo

Spoiler:

So - with an average salary of ~£24k (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pse/civil-service-statistics/2013/sty-civil-service-statistics.html …) that's £13.8m per week in salary alone.

**Skullhammer**

You wont need to wait for a second referendum as unless art50 is signed off by the end of march 2017 its going to need a majority vote of the eu council to leave. Which is quite frankly outragous.

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/fact-if-the-uk-doesnt-have-a-signed-deal-by-april-2017-brexit-is-in-grave-danger/

**Future War Cultist**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Tin foil hat time; the majority of MP's Tory or otherwise were pro-Remain. Ensure the efforts to initiate Article 50 and generally coordinate leaving struggle and you have grounds for giving a second referendum. With deliberate incompetence from the MP's it would be more likely that Remain would win the second vote.

Yeah, I was afraid this would happen. There was simply too many interests vested in keeping us in regardless of any vote. We never stood a chance did we?

**Ketara**

I actually don't believe that memo. What kind of a consultant would sit down and criticise the cabinet? I don't doubt for a minute that they're fecking up, and that there's cabinet infighting, but this sounds like something someone wrote up themselves to leak. *coughmostlikelybojocough*

**Herzlos**

Future War Cultist wrote:

Yeah, I was afraid this would happen. There was simply too many interests vested in keeping us in regardless of any vote. We never stood a chance did we?

Not with a victory margin that narrow and the Tories in charge.

You can still petition your MP to vote they way you feel they should, but as per democracy, others will be doing the same thing.

**Kilkrazy**

Future War Cultist wrote:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Tin foil hat time; the majority of MP's Tory or otherwise were pro-Remain. Ensure the efforts to initiate Article 50 and generally coordinate leaving struggle and you have grounds for giving a second referendum. With deliberate incompetence from the MP's it would be more likely that Remain would win the second vote.

Yeah, I was afraid this would happen. There was simply too many interests vested in keeping us in regardless of any vote. We never stood a chance did we?

You need a clear objective and a plan beyond "Brexit is Brexit".

**Future War Cultist**

My MP is Paul Maskey of Sinn Fein. He's pro EU and doesn't bother going to parliament. I'm sure he always remembers to claim the expenses though.

My plan would be an utter withdrawal from the EU and to revert back to WTO rules. I'd use the tariffs this creates to help keep businesses here on track. I'd have a bill that converts all the eu laws we have into U.K. laws so that they can be dealt with at a later date whilst minimising the distribution. From there I'd leave it to the EU to come to us for any future trade deals.

Meanwhile I'd push for this idea that was raised in the EU parliament of letting uk citizens apply for a sort of EU citizenship. That way anyone here who still wants to be a part of the EU can do so. I assume that the way this would work is that they retain all eu rights with regards to work/travel etc within it. We've already got cases of dual nationality so I'm sure this could work.

**Mr. Burning**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Tin foil hat time; the majority of MP's Tory or otherwise were pro-Remain. Ensure the efforts to initiate Article 50 and generally coordinate leaving struggle and you have grounds for giving a second referendum. With deliberate incompetence from the MP's it would be more likely that Remain would win the second vote.

Yeah, I was afraid this would happen. There was simply too many interests vested in keeping us in regardless of any vote. We never stood a chance did we?

You need a clear objective and a plan beyond "Brexit is Brexit".

I have to agree with KK here. As much as I wanted out, leaving without a plan, at least to get staff in place in a short space of time is just pants on head stupid.

But I still think this memo is a bit much.

**Future War Cultist**

Skullhammer wrote:
You wont need to wait for a second referendum as unless art50 is signed off by the end of march 2017 its going to need a majority vote of the eu council to leave. Which is quite frankly outragous.

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/fact-if-the-uk-doesnt-have-a-signed-deal-by-april-2017-brexit-is-in-grave-danger/

Well that's that then. All they have to do is keep stalling and reach that deadline. May campaigned to remain, and I'm starting to think she still intends to remain.

We shouldn't have even bothered having the referendum.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Kilkrazy wrote:
This is why hardcore Brexiteers are passionate not to have a second referendum.

No, I oppose a Referendum because Remainers (particularly Parliament) would consider a second vote (favourable to them) to be final and would "settle the issue" for a generation or more.

A good 50% of the country (or at least, 50% of the people who can be bothered to express their opinion with a vote) are Eurosceptic. Euroscepticism has been rising for the last decade, but we were denied the right to vote on the EU until this year, and then when we finally were given the right to vote, it was a complete shambles and was immediately undermined and rejected by large swathes of Parliament.

Can you not see why we're bitter and outraged over this? We fought for decades for a vote, and we won it, narrowly. Now we're facing the very real possibility of being forced to vote again in the space of a year and losing thanks to the incompetence of politicians who only called it because they thought they would have their way, and didn't bother to come up with a backup plan in case they lost.

This is par for the course for the EU. If it doesn't get the answer it wants, the people are forced to vote again.

And it will set a dangerous precedent regarding Scottish membership. We'll have given them their excuse to hold another Referendum. Which DINLT will no doubt be happy about.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Future War Cultist wrote:
Skullhammer wrote:
You wont need to wait for a second referendum as unless art50 is signed off by the end of march 2017 its going to need a majority vote of the eu council to leave. Which is quite frankly outragous.

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/06/29/fact-if-the-uk-doesnt-have-a-signed-deal-by-april-2017-brexit-is-in-grave-danger/

Well that's that then. All they have to do is keep stalling and reach that deadline. May campaigned to remain, and I'm starting to think she still intends to remain.

We shouldn't have even bothered having the referendum.

That is FETHING INSANE.

We won't be able to Leave without Europe's permission?

This is exactly what I've been afraid of and warning for years.

**reds8n**

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Tin foil hat time; the majority of MP's Tory or otherwise were pro-Remain. Ensure the efforts to initiate Article 50 and generally coordinate leaving struggle and you have grounds for giving a second referendum. With deliberate incompetence from the MP's it would be more likely that Remain would win the second vote.

I'm more of the opinion the whole farce is happening because they're only just starting to really understand exactly how complicated the whole procedure is going to be -- and also exactly how expensive it's going to be in the short term.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-vote-drives-firms-to-ditch-65bn-of-investment-gwcfxn67v

British businesses have abandoned investment plans worth more than £65 billion since the vote to leave the European Union five months ago.

A survey of more than 1,000 companies found that uncertainty about the UK’s future in the single market and the falling value of sterling were driving down investment.

Nearly half of large companies surveyed by the Centre for Economic and Business Research had cancelled investment plans since July, with medium-sized businesses most sensitive to the outcome of the referendum. More than one in five cited uncertainty over the UK’s membership of the single market for delaying investment. A similar number cited the falling pound.

A separate report into the outlook for the labour market found that wages were likely to fall in real…

I know there's Uk universities who had 5-10 year plans which have suddenly been thrown into limbo, most of which involved some serious £££s.

**Future War Cultist**

@ Shadow Captain Edithae

I share your anger and concerns. The only way out then would be the unlikely chance the decides EU to let us go. That or go to war.

**jouso**

Future War Cultist wrote:

Meanwhile I'd push for this idea that was raised in the EU parliament of letting uk citizens apply for a sort of EU citizenship. That way anyone here who still wants to be a part of the EU can do so. I assume that the way this would work is that they retain all eu rights with regards to work/travel etc within it. We've already got cases of dual nationality so I'm sure this could work.

It wouldn't. That's UK citizens getting all the perks of labour mobility and none of the drawbacks.

Just not going to happen unless every EU citizen can also apply for a comparable sort-of UK nationality while retaining their own.

**Herzlos**

Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Shadow Captain Edithae

I share your anger and concerns. The only way out then would be the unlikely chance the decides EU to let us go. That or go to war.

Or we just stop paying them and get kicked out. If we keep up this uncertainly we're going to stop being able to afford to pay them sooner or later anyway

**Future War Cultist**

jouso wrote:
It wouldn't. That's UK citizens getting all the perks of labour mobility and none of the drawbacks.

Just not going to happen unless every EU citizen can also apply for a comparable sort-of UK nationality while retaining their own.

Well, nevermind then. At this point it's moot anyway. We won't be leaving the EU anytime soon. There's too many vested interests in the way.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Normally, it's me who needs to be calmed down

But I would urge Shadow Captain and Future War to keep the cool.

Brexit is happening.

There is no need for tin foil hats - it's cock up, not conspiracy.

I was there in the 1990s with the Black Wednesday debacle. There is no conspiracy - the Tories really are this incompetent.

They had no plan, because David Cameron was expecting another coalition, the referendum would be dropped, and the human shield that is Nick Clegg, would have taken the bullet.

I said last year that a Tory majority was Cameron's worst nightmare. People like Ketara shot me down in flames!

I predicted that, I predicted a Trump victory, and I'm saying that Brexit will happen.

Trust me.

**Skullhammer**

Well that memos been debunked by deloitte who wrote it off there own back. So tge uk media has been banging on abour it all day and its a sales pitch. Whatever happened to journos doing checks, from some papers id not expect it but from the times. Smh

**Future War Cultist**

Until Article 50 is invoked I'll never rest easy. Even if it is invoked after all this stalling I'll still on edge. The process could easily be sabotaged to prove a point.

**Heisperus**

reds8n wrote:

I know there's Uk universities who had 5-10 year plans which have suddenly been thrown into limbo, most of which involved some serious £££s.

There's a lot of uncertainty in universities, simply because of the contribution Europe makes towards funding and collaboration. I've heard of researchers leaving to seek a more stable future on the mainland, and British researchers being cut from consortia.
I get the feeling that Brexit wasn't MEANT to succeed, and that Cammy and his government underestimated just how easy the British public were to manipulate with phony claims and invective filled tabloids.
My brother in law's dad pictures this return to the glory days of the empire but it seems to escape him that we're merely an insignificant little island that's contributing to the end of globalisation.