UK Politics

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**Skullhammer**

We dont have a shadow health sec (i think hes the one)he quit today following tulip yesterday as they wont follow corbyns whip on the art 50 vote.
Sooo old jezzers down 2 shadow cabinet members again just a few days before the vote, its like watching a slo mo train wreck.

**r_squared**

It's a real shame that we don't have an effective opposition, and by real shame I mean a fething travesty.

Any half competent opposition would be able to put this Govt to task and ensure they're not just pandering to the extremes of their party.

**Future War Cultist**

What did you all think of May and Trump's press conference today?

**Whirlwind**

Future War Cultist wrote:
What did you all think of May and Trump's press conference today?

Choreographed. Though the hand grab by Trump didn't seem to last long or go down well looking at the facial expressions. May needed this, because if it went badly there would be a lot of questions at home. Trump wants access to the UK to buy out the good bits. At the moment it's all smiles.

May said opposites attract. Indeed they do we have a weak willed leader and a narcissist leader. A perfect match, just not one made in heaven.

**Kilkrazy**

Whirlwind wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Well this is just great.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-quits-european-nuclear-body-pgmq9m9fc

So yeah, the Tories (and Brexit in general) continue their push to totally cripple UK science. Well done them.

It looks like David Davis, being the moron that he is, did a google search with anything started with "Eu" and decided it would all be left behind without any real consideration of the impacts. It is however causing more localised issues...
For example once A50 is invoked it will become illegal to listen to the band 'Europe' and there are proposals for the members of Eurythmics to be deported with extreme prejudice at the earliest opportunity.

More seriously this is obviously another stupid idea from the increasing eccentric Tory party that by leaving an international recognised group that they will save money by cutting a few corners which when it comes to nuclear power couldn't be more scary in it's naivety.

Actually it makes an odd kind of sense. We and the French are the only people in Europe who do nuclear power any more. Our next generation of reactors is being designed and built by the French. Consequently we have to cooperate with them but there isn't much for us to do with anyone else since we are giving up our own nuclear destiny anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whirlwind wrote:
r_squared wrote:
This isn't really all that encouraging...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-donald-trump-nhs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html

I don't want to say that the Tories don't believe in an NHS free at the point of use, some might actually believe that, but I'm sure that the involvement of US business will impact the NHS in ways that will end up costing us more money, for less "free service".

I'm more than worried by this statement. The quote "As regards the NHS, we're very clear as a Government that we're committed to an NHS that is free at the point of use."

All it says is that when we turn up at the Doctor's or A&E it will be free. It does not however state that we won't be charged later, or need to pay for insurance to cover medical costs (so that it can be 'free at the point of use'). It appears the Tories are already planning to privatise the NHS and require us to pay in some way (otherwise why not just say 'free to use'); subsequently they are starting to shift their language. This would also then tie into opening the market to US because I can see that we will be required to buy into some form of insurance scheme and then when we get sick you'll be farmed off to the cheapest provider to try and sort it out (which being cheap will inevitably mean leave it is long as possible and hope you peg it or get better). Driving the NHS into the ground also means they can try and sell it to the public as a look how much better things will be when we make this change. It cannot be a coincidence that Arron Banks who massively supported to Leave the EU is also an insurance tycoon. You'd think it was all linked somehow....

The great British public has always paid for the NHS through general taxation. "Free at the point of use" means that people who fall ill don't have to pay for visiting the doctor, etc. Their father/wife/someone else has already paid.

This doesn't include dental of course.

**Whirlwind**

Kilkrazy wrote:

Actually it makes an odd kind of sense. We and the French are the only people in Europe who do nuclear power any more. Our next generation of reactors is being designed and built by the French. Consequently we have to cooperate with them but there isn't much for us to do with anyone else since we are giving up our own nuclear destiny anyway.

That's even more of a reason for the processes to be overseen by an independent body. You always want H&S to assessed independently. Both France own EDF and therefore will want to see a profit out of Hinkley C. The UK will want to be seen to get good value for money. France and the UK therefore are compromised when it comes to the safety or decide not to follow new safety protocols on the basis of cost and the old ones are 'good enough'. The argument coming out of Hinkley C is that it leaving Euratom will cost the UK more because it effectively has to hire consultants to do the same thing (because our own agency has difficulty recruiting) that Euratom currently already does (so it's spreading the costs). The only way this cost doesn't increase is if you scale back on your checks and that's the last thing you want to do on a design of Nuclear reactor that has yet to be successfully implemented.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

The great British public has always paid for the NHS through general taxation. "Free at the point of use" means that people who fall ill don't have to pay for visiting the doctor, etc. Their father/wife/someone else has already paid
This doesn't include dental of course.

I'm not arguing that we don't pay of the NHS through taxation currently. Although I freely admit I was wrong about how long the wording has been used, I'm slightly concerned about how imbedded the wording has become that what it says isn't actually being read. This is what concerns me.

The road network, schooling, job centre, HMRC are all funded by taxes as well, but none of these are referred to as "free at the point of use". So why is the NHS different? Why not just "stated funded NHS" (like education) or "socially funded NHS". The wording is so broad that the only thing a government can't do is get the till register out when you arrive in A&E.

You could easily still meet the wording but requiring every person to have health insurance which the NHS would then recover costs from after any illness/accident. The service would still be "free at the point of use" (you wouldn't be charged at the door) but that doesn't mean you are in a way now paying for it in a different way and your premiums are likely to be more based on how often you claim rather than you're just unlucky. Strictly speaking if you book a package holiday 12 months in advance, the use of that the plane is "free at the point of use". That doesn't mean you haven't paid for it.

I think that people have become too accepting of the wording and fear that it will eventually come back to haunt us.

**reds8n**

https://twitter.com/PaulJamesOakley/status/825295394712219648

not a spoof account.

**Silent Puffin?**

reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/PaulJamesOakley/status/825295394712219648

not a spoof account.

Jebus....

**Whirlwind**

Silent Puffin? wrote:
reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/PaulJamesOakley/status/825295394712219648

not a spoof account.

Jebus....

It's quite worrying the increasing number of people that think that the type of society in the film should be emulated!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Whirlwind wrote:
Silent Puffin? wrote:
reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/PaulJamesOakley/status/825295394712219648

not a spoof account.

Jebus....

It's quite worrying the increasing number of people that think that the type of society in the film should be emulated!

Or those that Judge Dredd is a satire, nobody should want to live in 40k's setting etc.

All just sad little white men watching their privilege slowly even out, and getting out of their prom about it.

**reds8n**

... It's odd how optional reality appears to have become of late.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

You underestimate his genius for quantum physics.

Schrödinger's Trump. He was there and he wasn't there

**reds8n**

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/746272130992644096

2:21 AM - 24 Jun 2016

Just arrived in Scotland. Place is going wild over the vote. They took their country back, just like we will take America back. No game

...Scotland of course voted largely to stay in the EU.

**wuestenfux**

Future War Cultist wrote:
What did you all think of May and Trump's press conference today?

Fantastic, wasn't it?
Im looking forward to the new relationship between America and UK in two years. Maybe without Scotland.

**Magister**

Anyone else feel like they've gone and missed the punchline with regards to the way that the world is heading?

I keep hoping that I'll wake up and it'll all be a bad dream... (like the one I had last night where my beard was shaved off).

**r_squared**

Magister wrote:

Anyone else feel like they've gone and missed the punchline with regards to the way that the world is heading?

I keep hoping that I'll wake up and it'll all be a bad dream... (like the one I had last night where my beard was shaved off).

The only problem with that idea, which has crossed my mind, is that I'll instantly be transported back to last June, thousands of miles away from my family with several months still do to until I get home, as well as the enormous amount of work I've completed for my studies which will have been effectively imaginary and I'll have to slog through it all again.

Frankly things have been pretty messed up, but I'm bolloxed if I'm dragging myself through those assignments again. I'll stay in the coma and see how it all pans out thanks.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Magister wrote:

Anyone else feel like they've gone and missed the punchline with regards to the way that the world is heading?

I keep hoping that I'll wake up and it'll all be a bad dream... (like the one I had last night where my beard was shaved off).

Some people on these pages think Brexit is a one-way ticket to economic suicide. I don't agree with that position, but I respect those posters who voted Remain.

Other people like me, are optimistic, believing Brexit to be the dawn of a glorious age, a Britain free from the shackles of the EU.

I suppose it depends on your perspective.

Years ago, when I was growing up, Thatcher was laying waste to Britain, the Berlin Wall was coming down, and we seemed at the cross=roads of an unknown future, but here we are.

I would advise people not to worry too much about Trump. There's nothing that anybody on dakka can do about it. That doesn't say we have to like it, but I don't worry about things I have no control over.

**Kilkrazy**

reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/PaulJamesOakley/status/825295394712219648

not a spoof account.

Create and buy your perfect BMW from the comfort of your own home.

This is why there isn't any UK car industry any more.

**reds8n**

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/britain-is-going-to-help-turkey-build-fighter-jets-despite-c?utm_term=.tlD2EEBqjm#.kdMM88Gydm

ANKARA – Theresa May will help Turkey develop new fighter jets to build post-Brexit trade relations with the country’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, despite human rights concerns about his government.
The prime minister used a trip to the Turkish capital of Ankara to back a £100 million deal that will see British businesses help Turkey build its own warplanes. The agreement had reportedly been delayed following last year’s failed military coup against Erdogan and his subsequent crackdown on dissenting forces in the country.
May’s spokesperson stood by the decision to help Turkey develop military hardware, despite Human Rights Watch describing the deterioration of human rights in the country following recent crackdowns on the media and political opponents of the ruling Justice and Development party (AKP).
“She thinks that it’s important and in the UK’s national interest to engage with Turkey,” the representative said, although they would not confirm that human rights would be specifically raised in the meeting between the two leaders.
“We have expressed strong support for Turkey’s democracy and institutions following the coup but have also urged Turkey to ensure their response is proportionate and in line with international human rights organisation.”
The prime minister later emphasised this, standing beside Erdogan to deliver a joint statement in which she denounced the coup: “I’m proud that the UK stood with you on the 15 July last year in defence of democracy and now it is important that Turkey sustains that democracy by maintaining the rule of law and upholding its international human rights obligations as the government has undertaken to do.”
The deal could later expand to other military equipment worth billions of pounds, helping supply a Turkish military that is currently involved in the conflict with Syria and battling with Kurdish forces within its own borders.
The prime minister flew to Ankara directly after meeting US president Donald Trump in Washington DC. She was greeted by Erdogan at his fortress-like presidential compound in the Turkish capital and as she sat down to begin her talks with the president, he pointed to a huge TV in the corner where scenes from her visit to the White House were being shown.
She laughed in surprise. “It was well covered in Turkey,” an aide to the president said, to which May smiled.
“Well covered,” she repeated, and smiled again.
Erdogan, who has recently jailed dozens of journalists, is no fan of the media and will not be taking questions from reporters. Instead, Theresa May will hold a joint press conference with Turkish prime minister Binali Yildirim.
During the EU referendum campaign the prospect of Turkey joining the EU was used to increase fears of high immigration. Although Britain is set to leave the EU, May’s spokesperson confirmed that the UK still technically supports Turkish accession and now wants to boost trade between the two countries.
May is the first Western leader to visit Erdogan since the attempted coup, although she is not his only high-profile visitor this week: Twenty-four hours earlier he held talks with film star Lindsay Lohan.

May is the first Western leader to visit Erdogan since the attempted coup, although she is not his only high-profile visitor this week: Twenty-four hours earlier he held talks with film star Lindsay Lohan.

...err.. okay

.. ..what ?

... so is this what we're going to do now ?

Guess there's only so much jam you can sell.

**Kilkrazy**

The UK has been selling military tech and hardware to dodgy regimes for decades. The Shan of Iran bought Chieftain tanks, the Saudis had Jaguar bombers, and are using cluster bombs right now, etc etc.

(These deals sometimes went wrong and lost money one way or another, but Thatcher's Export Guarantee Scheme ensured that the costs were borne by the taxpayer rather than the companies involved.)

It is in the UK's and Europe's interests to keep Turkey on side and try to prevent it becoming either a Russia or Islamist leaning authoritarian state or worse. It may be easier to influence an unpleasant regime by making deals with it than by freezing it out and thereby pushing it into the arms of rivals.

Another pragmatic point is that military development and exports are a way of helping to maintain Britain's arms industry to retain skills and domestic capacity for the help of our own armed forces.

**GoatboyBeta**

reds8n wrote:
https://twitter.com/PaulJamesOakley/status/825295394712219648

not a spoof account.

Oh

. I just facepalmed so hard I hit my knees.

**SDFarsight**

r_squared wrote:
It's a real shame that we don't have an effective opposition, and by real shame I mean a fething travesty.

Any half competent opposition would be able to put this Govt to task and ensure they're not just pandering to the extremes of their party.

Indeed, at a time when Labour should be acting as the Opposition they're instead too busy with having a witch hunt for "blairites" and having a 'London pro-immigration vs Northern anti-immigration' personality crisis.

**reds8n**

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-uk-dual-nationals-apply-embassy-us-contradicts-a7552911.html

so is Bojo lying ?

Or did he misunderstand ?

Or was he lied to ?

Or does the USA embassy not know ?

... and is there a best or worst option there ?

**Mr. Burning**

reds8n wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-uk-dual-nationals-apply-embassy-us-contradicts-a7552911.html

so is Bojo lying ?

Or did he misunderstand ?

Or was he lied to ?

Or does the USA embassy not know ?

... and is there a best or worst option there ?

Well the order is being amended as we speak so not even the White House knows what to do and if they dont have a clear idea how is anyone else supposed to know?

**reds8n**

Indeed.

So all that's happening is that the Govt. of the USA doesn't know what's going on.

..This must be the unpredictability we heard was going to be such a strength.

..state visit/or what he gets is gonna be a real chuckle.

..Give you odds on.........oooh...... Peter Tatchell maybe ? ..trying some "hilarious" and not at all ineffective citizens arrest or something.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Let's hope Tatchell doesn't go down that route. I'm sure I read somewhere that Secret Service agents get a licence to kill in the UK and are thus, immune to any legal action.

**reds8n**

...I would be genuinely amazed if that/similar wasn't the case.

Late 80s one of the royals visited kent Uni. --wwaayy before my time -- a minor member of the royal family visited the campus.

FOAF supposedly -- after she walked past one of the colleges he waved an air pistol/similar out of his bedroom window.

.. Apparently about 45 seconds later his bedroom door was smashed off its hinges and ..special branch ? ... or whoever grabbed him and took him away.

He returned about 2 days later -- physically unhurt -- but, according to my friends who knew him/were there -- shaking, pale -- as if he'd aged a year.

Wouldn't be drawn on the subject except to say it was a bad idea and you really shouldn't do that.

**Steve steveson**

They are allowed to be armed, but they are not immune from prosecution. Apparently the US asked before but were told to do one, but that could be myth.

Realistically however the Met police's SO6, SO20, SC&O19 and CO20 (Terrorist response, armed response, public order & diplomatic protection) units do the protection and planning.

**GoatboyBeta**

reds8n wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/donald-trump-muslim-ban-uk-dual-nationals-apply-embassy-us-contradicts-a7552911.html

so is Bojo lying ?

Or did he misunderstand ?

Or was he lied to ?

Or does the USA embassy not know ?

All of the above?

**Kilkrazy**

The Trump Team are basically amateurs and are making all kinds of easily preventable feth-ups because they don't know what they are doing and don't want to take any advice from seasoned diplomats and staff. (Even lawyers about legal questions, apparently...)

It will be a great day when Trump runs out of things to write executive orders about. That should happen about Thursday the rate he is going.

The real government and civil service will then be able to start to sort out the Godawful mess he will have created.