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For every example of a stupid Leave voter, we could match with an example of a stupid Remain voter
Numbers would suggest otherwise,
Let's try and avoid getting into the habit of characterising the other side as stupid, shall we?
.
My comment is specifically with regards to her & anyone else who voted for such trite reasons -- whichever way.
Project much huh ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
We can certainly pick out individual examples of stupid Leave voters and counter them with individual examples of stupid Remain voters.
Nonetheless, the demographic data shows that people of lower educational attainment were more likely to vote Leave and people of higher educational attainment were more likely to vote Remain. Lower educational attainment does not equal stupidity, though. Older people had less chance to get a degree. OTOH higher educational attainment gives people more intellectual tools for dealing with the world, getting and analysing information, so in some sense it creates cleverness.
The demographic is far from a rule, though. Ketara is a supporter of Leave and has more degrees than I do, who supports Remain. He is about 25 years younger too.
"The former campaign director of Vote Leave, Dominic Cummings, argues that the better educated are more prone to holding irrational political opinions because they are more driven by fashion and a group mentality." This presupposes that to want to Remain is irrational.
For every example of a stupid Leave voter, we could match with an example of a stupid Remain voter
Numbers would suggest otherwise,
Let's try and avoid getting into the habit of characterising the other side as stupid, shall we?
.
My comment is specifically with regards to her & anyone else who voted for such trite reasons -- whichever way.
Project much huh ?
I'm not projecting anything. You said we're doomed because of stupid people like her (a Leave voter). This has been a common narrative of the Remain side, even in this thread, that Leave voters are stupid. Just look at Mr Heretiks posts. It wasn't an unreasonable inference that you were also saying that. If you were not, perhaps you should have been more clear.
That level of doublethink is genuinely perturbing.
Frightening.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
That level of doublethink is genuinely perturbing.
Frightening.
Cast your mind back to pre-2003 and the build up to the Iraq invasion.
A tidal wave of propaganda, MPs falling into line, Campbell bullying the BBC and British newspapers marching in line with the government.
Fake news was around long before Trump and the EU referendum rolled into town.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
It's the fact that her belief/hypothesis was directly contradicted by her actual eyes, the evidence was literally in front of her.
Knows what 2 equals, knows what 4 equals and somehow makes 2 + 2 = Bungalow on the outskirts of Purfleet.
Terrifying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 12:27:59
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
And now Julian Assange is asking the UK and Sweden to 'restore his liberty'....
Except, it's you, Mr Assange. It's you that's chosen to restrict your liberty by hiding from a very serious charge (rape, in case anyone's forgotten) by holing up in an embassy.
You want your liberty back, just got to walk outside. Yes, you will be immediately arrested on an international arrest warrant on suspicion of rape, because PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF RAPE, and extradited to Sweden.
He's invited the Swedish police to interview him in the embassy, and asked for assurances that he won't be extradited to the US if he travels to Sweden. Sweden has refused both. Why?
But hey, YOU'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF RAPE, so my empathy for you is pretty much nil.
So because he's been accused, and is presumed innocent until proven otherwise, he's not entitled to empathy or safety from extradition?
Are you aware of the details surrounding the case? How they only came up after the leaks happened?
Will Britain still be included in that EU-Canada trade deal? Assuming of course the European Parliament agrees to it.
Obviously, we were a signatory as part of the EU, but when we exit the EU, will the UK still have to honour the deal?
I'm scratching my head at this one...
We'd have to agree a new deal direct with Canada (Because we're not agreeing a deal with them currently, the EU is, with our approval as part of the EU). But we'd at least have an approved starting point so it should be trivial.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 12:31:13
And now Julian Assange is asking the UK and Sweden to 'restore his liberty'....
Except, it's you, Mr Assange. It's you that's chosen to restrict your liberty by hiding from a very serious charge (rape, in case anyone's forgotten) by holing up in an embassy.
You want your liberty back, just got to walk outside. Yes, you will be immediately arrested on an international arrest warrant on suspicion of rape, because PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF RAPE, and extradited to Sweden.
He's invited the Swedish police to interview him in the embassy, and asked for assurances that he won't be extradited to the US if he travels to Sweden. Sweden has refused both. Why?
But hey, YOU'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF RAPE, so my empathy for you is pretty much nil.
So because he's been accused, and is presumed innocent until proven otherwise, he's not entitled to empathy or safety from extradition?
Are you aware of the details surrounding the case? How they only came up after the leaks happened?
Will Britain still be included in that EU-Canada trade deal? Assuming of course the European Parliament agrees to it.
Obviously, we were a signatory as part of the EU, but when we exit the EU, will the UK still have to honour the deal?
I'm scratching my head at this one...
We'd have to agree a new deal direct with Canada (Because we're not agreeing a deal with them currently, the EU is, with our approval as part of the EU). But we'd at least have an approved starting point so it should be trivial.
Let's say he is extradited to the US....so what?
I mean, anyone would think he'd been publishing any and all muck bunged his way, seemingly endangering lives and intelligence operations....he needs to reap what he's sown, and stop playing the injured party.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
because he's been accused, and is presumed innocent until proven otherwise, he's not entitled to empathy or safety from extradition?
Yup. We're supposed to "Listen and believe!" or something.
All of which is to a degree moot, since by rights we should have him banged up for jumping bail a long time before the Swedes get a crack at him. And there's absolutely NO doubt that he's guilty of that.
And now Julian Assange is asking the UK and Sweden to 'restore his liberty'....
Except, it's you, Mr Assange. It's you that's chosen to restrict your liberty by hiding from a very serious charge (rape, in case anyone's forgotten) by holing up in an embassy.
You want your liberty back, just got to walk outside. Yes, you will be immediately arrested on an international arrest warrant on suspicion of rape, because PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF RAPE, and extradited to Sweden.
He's invited the Swedish police to interview him in the embassy, and asked for assurances that he won't be extradited to the US if he travels to Sweden. Sweden has refused both. Why?
On the extradition, it's because it would be a gross violation of the judicial system for the government to give any sort of guarantee that they're not constitutionally allowed to give. It's up to the courts, not the government.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Assange may very well be innocent of the rape charge(s? Was there two? I seem to recall two women accusing).
But he's not innocent of a lot of other stuff.
For a man who likes to air dirty linen in the name of 'governmental transparency', he's awfully keen to exclude his own private life and actions from scrutiny and justice, no?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Assange may very well be innocent of the rape charge(s? Was there two? I seem to recall two women accusing).
But he's not innocent of a lot of other stuff.
For a man who likes to air dirty linen in the name of 'governmental transparency', he's awfully keen to exclude his own private life and actions from scrutiny and justice, no?
Exalted that post my friend.
He's got to face a trail like anyone else accused of a crime. He's not above the law despite what he thinks.
@ Reds8n
Even still, don't be tarring us all with the same brush.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/06 13:10:00
because he's been accused, and is presumed innocent until proven otherwise, he's not entitled to empathy or safety from extradition?
Yup. We're supposed to "Listen and believe!" or something.
All of which is to a degree moot, since by rights we should have him banged up for jumping bail a long time before the Swedes get a crack at him. And there's absolutely NO doubt that he's guilty of that.
We can't touch Assange. If Britain gate-crashes an embassy, then there will be nothing to stop Iran and North Korea, or even Russia, doing the same to our embassies abroad.
It's a slippery slope when you kick in the front doors of an embassy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Assange may very well be innocent of the rape charge(s? Was there two? I seem to recall two women accusing).
But he's not innocent of a lot of other stuff.
For a man who likes to air dirty linen in the name of 'governmental transparency', he's awfully keen to exclude his own private life and actions from scrutiny and justice, no?
There's a lot of grey areas in the Assange case. I've been following it for a while, and it's not as black and white as some people would have you believe...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 13:10:01
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I am heartily sick of this man. If he's not demanding special treatment to stop him facing justice for something that clearly did on account he did it and has even said he did it and notorious for having done it*, then he's leaning out his embassy window giving a sermon like some kind of repulsive Eva Peron....
*That'd be Wikileaks. As noted above, I fully accept he may well be innocent of the rape charge(s?)
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
And now Julian Assange is asking the UK and Sweden to 'restore his liberty'....
Except, it's you, Mr Assange. It's you that's chosen to restrict your liberty by hiding from a very serious charge (rape, in case anyone's forgotten) by holing up in an embassy.
You want your liberty back, just got to walk outside. Yes, you will be immediately arrested on an international arrest warrant on suspicion of rape, because PEOPLE HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF RAPE, and extradited to Sweden.
He's invited the Swedish police to interview him in the embassy, and asked for assurances that he won't be extradited to the US if he travels to Sweden. Sweden has refused both. Why?
But hey, YOU'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF RAPE, so my empathy for you is pretty much nil.
So because he's been accused, and is presumed innocent until proven otherwise, he's not entitled to empathy or safety from extradition?
Are you aware of the details surrounding the case? How they only came up after the leaks happened?
Will Britain still be included in that EU-Canada trade deal? Assuming of course the European Parliament agrees to it.
Obviously, we were a signatory as part of the EU, but when we exit the EU, will the UK still have to honour the deal?
I'm scratching my head at this one...
We'd have to agree a new deal direct with Canada (Because we're not agreeing a deal with them currently, the EU is, with our approval as part of the EU). But we'd at least have an approved starting point so it should be trivial.
That makes sense.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Eh...I'd prefer the term 'reluctant proponent of'.
The EU is good in a great many regards, many of which are unperceivable by Brexiters. I might have voted to leave and (grudgingly) stick to that decision, but I do wish the EU had gotten its head out of its arse in time to make another way viable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 13:51:14
We can't touch Assange. If Britain gate-crashes an embassy, then there will be nothing to stop Iran and North Korea, or even Russia, doing the same to our embassies abroad.
It's a slippery slope when you kick in the front doors of an embassy.
Eh? No no no no - don't go around grabbing people out of embassies. That'd be fairly appalling, and as you say would set a really bad precedent.
But the minute he steps out the door, smile on his face, declaring that he's going to face the music in Sweden/the Swedes have dropped the charges/He's very ill due to not having seen sunlight in a decade, get the cuffs on him. Once he's in the street, he's fair game.
I don't have any particular problem with his wikileakage. But thinking you can just skip out on bail because you're SPECIAL - no. No you're not.
So it means he'd potentially spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement waiting on a trial for a crime with a maxium sentence of (IIRC) 14 years, if he even survives the trip and avoids GITMO. There's no way he's going to get a fair hearing in the US, who have a pretty bad track record on this sort of thing.
So he could find himself cleared of all charges round the world, and still find himself in jail for years. Though to be fair he's not exactly living the high life, he's been confined to that embassy for years already.
I mean, anyone would think he'd been publishing any and all muck bunged his way, seemingly endangering lives and intelligence operations....he needs to reap what he's sown, and stop playing the injured party.
Oh indeed, he's leaked a few questionable things. But he's entitled to a fair and impartial trial, no?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Graphite wrote: But thinking you can just skip out on bail because you're SPECIAL - no. No you're not.
But you're entitled to claim asylum if you feel you're going to be unfairly treated, which is what he's done. He's not avoiding prosecution for his alleged crimes in Sweden, he just wants to be treated fairly, and that's not going to be possible anywhere that has an extradition treaty (or intelligence connections) with the US. We all know that the US won't let him leave the arrivals lounge in Sweden before he's dragged onto a flight to the US.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 13:59:02
Eh...I'd prefer the term 'reluctant proponent of'.
The EU is good in a great many regards, many of which are unperceivable by Brexiters. I might have voted to leave and (grudgingly) stick to that decision, but I do wish the EU had gotten its head out of its arse in time to make another way viable.
Hold your horses here - don't shamelessly claim credit for being the only person on dakka who seen some good in the EU
I'd be the first to admit that the EU has some good things about it, but ultimately, the bad outweighs the good, hence my leave vote.
We can't touch Assange. If Britain gate-crashes an embassy, then there will be nothing to stop Iran and North Korea, or even Russia, doing the same to our embassies abroad.
It's a slippery slope when you kick in the front doors of an embassy.
Eh? No no no no - don't go around grabbing people out of embassies. That'd be fairly appalling, and as you say would set a really bad precedent.
But the minute he steps out the door, smile on his face, declaring that he's going to face the music in Sweden/the Swedes have dropped the charges/He's very ill due to not having seen sunlight in a decade, get the cuffs on him. Once he's in the street, he's fair game.
I don't have any particular problem with his wikileakage. But thinking you can just skip out on bail because you're SPECIAL - no. No you're not.
I think there will be a sneaky smuggling operation in place to whisk Assange to safety before anybody puts the cuffs on him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/02/06 14:05:45
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
We can't touch Assange. If Britain gate-crashes an embassy, then there will be nothing to stop Iran and North Korea, or even Russia, doing the same to our embassies abroad.
It's a slippery slope when you kick in the front doors of an embassy.
Eh? No no no no - don't go around grabbing people out of embassies. That'd be fairly appalling, and as you say would set a really bad precedent.
But the minute he steps out the door, smile on his face, declaring that he's going to face the music in Sweden/the Swedes have dropped the charges/He's very ill due to not having seen sunlight in a decade, get the cuffs on him. Once he's in the street, he's fair game.
I don't have any particular problem with his wikileakage. But thinking you can just skip out on bail because you're SPECIAL - no. No you're not.
Countless public figures in the united states, mostly the right wing (who now control all 3 branches of government) were calling for his extradition and execution, if not outright assassination, for his involvement in the release of classified materials. He's not evading the law because he thinks he's above it. He's evading the law because of the very real danger that it could be a pretense and precursor to a US extradition attempt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 14:29:43
Shame the only thing suggesting he won't get that is, well....Mr Julian Assange.....
If only he'd not systematically pee'd off lots of governments....
You say he is entitled to a fair trial, yet the only person suggesting he wont is himself.
Then you say he's pee'd off lots of governments...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/06 14:52:49
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
Shame the only thing suggesting he won't get that is, well....Mr Julian Assange.....
If only he'd not systematically pee'd off lots of governments....
If anyone can provide a trial where Assange is safe from US black-bagging ("extraordinary rendition"?), then he'd be happy to attend it.
That the Swedish police haven't even tried to interview him yet means that they aren't that bothered about getting it sorted. He's offered to host them, or to testify via video link.
