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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seeing as May is resolved to ditch the Single Market, the UK isn't going to have free trade with the EU. Not in a million years (or y'know, 20, when we end up rejoining the EU having shafted our economy at the behest of a handful of sociopathic racists)

Stranger things have happened in politics.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seeing as May is resolved to ditch the Single Market, the UK isn't going to have free trade with the EU. Not in a million years (or y'know, 20, when we end up rejoining the EU having shafted our economy at the behest of a handful of sociopathic racists)

Stranger things have happened in politics.

Yeah, like a nation putting its future in the hands of corrupt, incompetent buffoons with crackpot schemes: Bojo, Fox, Gove, IDS, May...

 welshhoppo wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
What are peoples thoughts about TM and denying the 2nd Scottish referendum.

I feel that it is the right thing to do to wait till after Brexit.

Scotland is leaving the EU in any result regardless and also, would it be a fair campaign if one side is busy with EU negotiations?

It seems best to wait and do it after the the dust has settled right?

Why? Scottish independence would likely invalidate a lot of the agreements, since England won't be able to offer any Scottish resources in the deal. She'd be best to call a referendum asap and negotiate both at the same time.

Sounds fair. It would be better to start the negotiations about Brexit and the Scots' non-Brexit at the same time.

the issue is that Scotland won't know what basis to stake their claims on. For all we know, they could vote to leave on the premise of free trade with the EU (for example) proceed to win, and then the UK might also win free trade with the EU. So they ended up leaving for no reason at all.

There should be nothing stopping Scotland mirroring Mays terms if independent, but they can't deviate if not independent. Plus May has made a big deal of movement restrictions over everything else. Given how badly she's flailing and how little they seem to know, why would anyond want them to make decisions on their behalf?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seeing as May is resolved to ditch the Single Market, the UK isn't going to have free trade with the EU. Not in a million years (or y'know, 20, when we end up rejoining the EU having shafted our economy at the behest of a handful of sociopathic racists)

Stranger things have happened in politics.

Yeah, like a nation putting its future in the hands of corrupt, incompetent buffoons with crackpot schemes: Bojo, Fox, Gove, IDS, May...

Speaking of Bojo actually, May seems to have got his number. She shoved him in Cabinet, so he couldn't make mischief without killing his own career, gave him an important sounding post (as a sop to his ego), and then promptly split his job three ways (removing him from any decision making), but left him the bit of the job requiring him to travel extensively (removing an e hate figure from domestic and brexit politics). We haven't heard hide nor hair from him since his appointment as a result.

After Osborne went down with the Cameron ship, and Gove committed political suicide, he was the only real remaining potential internal problem for her. It was a clever way to neutralise someone who might have turned into a real thorn in her side, domestically.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The UK has had a soft border with Ireland since 1922. There's no reason it has to change now, and after the independence of Scotland, the English/Scottish border can equally well be soft.

Aye.. Tax could get odd given you have people who work over the border etc but we could just agree you pay taxes to your country, and simplify that headache. Earn in one, pay at home. Both sides. No special status or gimmicky complexity.

There's heaps of people with odd tax situations -- diplomatic staff, loads of people who live and work in Europe (Schengen area), non-domiciled people -- so I don't think it would be a problem.

 Ketara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seeing as May is resolved to ditch the Single Market, the UK isn't going to have free trade with the EU. Not in a million years (or y'know, 20, when we end up rejoining the EU having shafted our economy at the behest of a handful of sociopathic racists)

Stranger things have happened in politics.

Yeah, like a nation putting its future in the hands of corrupt, incompetent buffoons with crackpot schemes: Bojo, Fox, Gove, IDS, May...

Speaking of Bojo actually, May seems to have got his number. She shoved him in Cabinet, so he couldn't make mischief without killing his own career, gave him an important sounding post (as a sop to his ego), and then promptly split his job three ways (removing him from any decision making), but left him the bit of the job requiring him to travel extensively (removing an e hate figure from domestic and brexit politics). We haven't heard hide nor hair from him since his appointment as a result.

After Osborne went down with the Cameron ship, and Gove committed political suicide, he was the only real remaining potential internal problem for her. It was a clever way to neutralise someone who might have turned into a real thorn in her side, domestically.

Maybe, but outwitting Bojo doesn't carry much water with me. Like I said earlier, from what I've heard, the Europeans think we're extracting the urine when we send Bojo to the European capitals.

The Brexit voting part of me hopes the EU overlooks Bojo. The Scottish indy part of me wants Bojo front and centre, as it will annoy the EU and only help the Scottish Indy cause.

Bojo is Foreign Minister, Davis is Brexit Minister. There's obviously a massive amount of overlap, since Brexit is the UK's no.1 foreign policy challenge of the next 10 years, but the real problem is that Bozza is a shambling clownish public-schoolboy amateur who still thinks he can get away with not doing his homework if he thinks up an amusing excuse.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Bojo is Foreign Minister, Davis is Brexit Minister. There's obviously a massive amount of overlap, since Brexit is the UK's no.1 foreign policy challenge of the next 10 years, but the real problem is that Bozza is a shambling clownish public-schoolboy amateur who still thinks he can get away with not doing his homework if he thinks up an amusing excuse.

That's the funny thing, she essentially stripped him of anything to do with Brexit by appointing Davis, and then went a step further by resurrecting Fox as a pseudo-rival and tearing off that other bit of his department to do with making trade deals.

Bojo has literally been left the job of signing off the embassy staff pay cheques and entertaining at ambassadors receptions in far off countries unrelated to anything important going on. By keeping him out the country and public eye, May effectively removed him as a liability to her own party, and the country as a whole. What's more, it stops him building up more connections/experience for himself domestically.

Seriously, it was a real masterstroke.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Bojo is Foreign Minister, Davis is Brexit Minister. There's obviously a massive amount of overlap, since Brexit is the UK's no.1 foreign policy challenge of the next 10 years, but the real problem is that Bozza is a shambling clownish public-schoolboy amateur who still thinks he can get away with not doing his homework if he thinks up an amusing excuse.

And yet, not only do some people rate him, they vote for him at General Elections

Bojo is representative of everything I hate about the class ridden society of Britain. An incompetent, talentless buffoon, who can turn out an amusing phrase, is propelled to high office by dint of his old school tie, whilst more talented people at the bottom struggle to get on...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Bojo is Foreign Minister, Davis is Brexit Minister. There's obviously a massive amount of overlap, since Brexit is the UK's no.1 foreign policy challenge of the next 10 years, but the real problem is that Bozza is a shambling clownish public-schoolboy amateur who still thinks he can get away with not doing his homework if he thinks up an amusing excuse.

And yet, not only do some people rate him, they vote for him at General Elections

Bojo is representative of everything I hate about the class ridden society of Britain. An incompetent, talentless buffoon, who can turn out an amusing phrase, is propelled to high office by dint of his old school tie, whilst more talented people at the bottom struggle to get on...

Yup.

I have a not-entirely-paranoid theory about the Tory approach to education.

They don't want an efficient State School system, lest anyone find out they're barely adequate, and their staton is solely the result of being born into wealth, rather than something genuinely earned and deserved.

Which isn't to say everyone born into wealth is undeserving of their position - just that there's enough braying hooray-Henry's who'd otherwise struggle to stack shelves in Sainsbury's in positions of power that are utterly beyond their capability.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


I have a not-entirely-paranoid theory about the Tory approach to education

I don't know. Theorising the Tories try and sabotage the education system to prevent the plebs from figuring out some rich/important people are dumb sounds pretty paranoid to me. It's about two tiers beneath lizard people, and one above global warming being made up by solar panel companies.

Unless of course, you're joking, in which case fair play.

 Ketara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Bojo is Foreign Minister, Davis is Brexit Minister. There's obviously a massive amount of overlap, since Brexit is the UK's no.1 foreign policy challenge of the next 10 years, but the real problem is that Bozza is a shambling clownish public-schoolboy amateur who still thinks he can get away with not doing his homework if he thinks up an amusing excuse.

That's the funny thing, she essentially stripped him of anything to do with Brexit by appointing Davis, and then went a step further by resurrecting Fox as a pseudo-rival and tearing off that other bit of his department to do with making trade deals.

Bojo has literally been left the job of signing off the embassy staff pay cheques and entertaining at ambassadors receptions in far off countries unrelated to anything important going on. By keeping him out the country and public eye, May effectively removed him as a liability to her own party, and the country as a whole. What's more, it stops him building up more connections/experience for himself domestically.

Seriously, it was a real masterstroke.

The risk is that our global image, which we rely on more now than ever, is being hurt by sending such an offensive clown any political engagement. Thry either think we support him and he represents us, or that we're insulting them by sending someone we know to be a laughing stock. I'm sure she could have found a way to keep him away from everyone for a few years.

I dunno. Johnson can be really charming and charismatic when he wants to be.

Even the Saudi incident, sure it annoyed them but a lot of countries probably also thought, "about time." - And, if memory serves, I don't think anything he said was factually wrong...

 welshhoppo wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
What are peoples thoughts about TM and denying the 2nd Scottish referendum.

I feel that it is the right thing to do to wait till after Brexit.

Scotland is leaving the EU in any result regardless and also, would it be a fair campaign if one side is busy with EU negotiations?

It seems best to wait and do it after the the dust has settled right?

Why? Scottish independence would likely invalidate a lot of the agreements, since England won't be able to offer any Scottish resources in the deal. She'd be best to call a referendum asap and negotiate both at the same time.

Sounds fair. It would be better to start the negotiations about Brexit and the Scots' non-Brexit at the same time.

the issue is that Scotland won't know what basis to stake their claims on. For all we know, they could vote to leave on the premise of free trade with the EU (for example) proceed to win, and then the UK might also win free trade with the EU. So they ended up leaving for no reason at all.

As far as free trade is concerned, this will be impossible.
Free trade is coupled with some constraints like free movement of employees.

It's reds under the bed time again

'secret' tape reveals hard-left plot between Momentum and Unite to take over the Labour party

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour

Coming on top of Corbyn's shambolic performance at PMQs the other day, I can honestly see May winning a GE with a majority of 300+

Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's reds under the bed time again

'secret' tape reveals hard-left plot between Momentum and Unite to take over the Labour party

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour

Coming on top of Corbyn's shambolic performance at PMQs the other day, I can honestly see May winning a GE with a majority of 300+

Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

So internal posturing for what adds up to a coup.
Civil war in the party earlier, bad leadership.

This gets worse and worse.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's reds under the bed time again

'secret' tape reveals hard-left plot between Momentum and Unite to take over the Labour party

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour

Coming on top of Corbyn's shambolic performance at PMQs the other day, I can honestly see May winning a GE with a majority of 300+

Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

So internal posturing for what adds up to a coup.
Civil war in the party earlier, bad leadership.

This gets worse and worse.

"plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" or something.

I don't know if anyone has had any real dealings with Momentum or the raft of hardcore supporters of the new movement but some I encountered are scary fantasists. The froth at mouth little englanders that came out during the referendum have nothing on some of these people. They have no clue of the core values Labour are supposed to uphold and don't care as isn't 'left' enough for them.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's reds under the bed time again

'secret' tape reveals hard-left plot between Momentum and Unite to take over the Labour party

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour

Coming on top of Corbyn's shambolic performance at PMQs the other day, I can honestly see May winning a GE with a majority of 300+

Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

So internal posturing for what adds up to a coup.
Civil war in the party earlier, bad leadership.

This gets worse and worse.

"plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" or something.

I don't know if anyone has had any real dealings with Momentum or the raft of hardcore supporters of the new movement but some I encountered are scary fantasists. The froth at mouth little englanders that came out during the referendum have nothing on some of these people. They have no clue of the core values Labour are supposed to uphold and don't care as isn't 'left' enough for them.

Never met the lefts elite guard. Sounds like glad I've not.
I knew they where on the left but not the vitriolic left.

Reminds me a bit of the Spartacists back in the 1980s.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Reminds me a bit of the Spartacists back in the 1980s.

If memory serves, was that not the hard-left takeover of Liverpool council?

The people that gave Neil Kinnock so much trouble?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's reds under the bed time again

'secret' tape reveals hard-left plot between Momentum and Unite to take over the Labour party

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour

Coming on top of Corbyn's shambolic performance at PMQs the other day, I can honestly see May winning a GE with a majority of 300+

Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

So internal posturing for what adds up to a coup.
Civil war in the party earlier, bad leadership.

This gets worse and worse.

At least I have the potential lifeboat that is Scottish independence. I feel sorry for centre-left people in the rest of the UK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's reds under the bed time again

'secret' tape reveals hard-left plot between Momentum and Unite to take over the Labour party

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/18/secret-tape-reveals-momentum-plot-to-link-with-unite-seize-control-of-labour

Coming on top of Corbyn's shambolic performance at PMQs the other day, I can honestly see May winning a GE with a majority of 300+

Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

So internal posturing for what adds up to a coup.
Civil war in the party earlier, bad leadership.

This gets worse and worse.

"plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" or something.

I don't know if anyone has had any real dealings with Momentum or the raft of hardcore supporters of the new movement but some I encountered are scary fantasists. The froth at mouth little englanders that came out during the referendum have nothing on some of these people. They have no clue of the core values Labour are supposed to uphold and don't care as isn't 'left' enough for them.

I've meet a few in my time as well. Fanatics to a man and woman.

I usually respect people who stand up and believe in something, but these people would never yield or compromise an inch.

 Compel wrote:
I dunno. Johnson can be really charming and charismatic when he wants to be.

Even the Saudi incident, sure it annoyed them but a lot of countries probably also thought, "about time." - And, if memory serves, I don't think anything he said was factually wrong...

Indeed - funny how alot of the usual suspects in the media and politics were very quiet about what he said and that it was true.

Having read a lot about Bojo over the years, it's important to note that there are two Bojos

The public face: the friendly, affable buffoon with the odd amusing quip and dodgy mullet

The private face: a nasty piece of work who treats women badly, conspires with close friends to beat up journalists, and when it comes to the duties of public office, about as useful as breasts on a rattle snake.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Having read a lot about Bojo over the years, it's important to note that there are two Bojos

The public face: the friendly, affable buffoon with the odd amusing quip and dodgy mullet

The private face: a nasty piece of work who treats women badly, conspires with close friends to beat up journalists, and when it comes to the duties of public office, about as useful as breasts on a rattle snake.

Yet he has survived so long in London as mayor, managed to get in govement and survive both the fall of the previous guard, thr rise of the new and such.
Maybe he is like that but he knows exactly how to sail the waters unlike some of his others who sank and ran aground on the political sand bars and rocks.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Having read a lot about Bojo over the years, it's important to note that there are two Bojos

The public face: the friendly, affable buffoon with the odd amusing quip and dodgy mullet

The private face: a nasty piece of work who treats women badly, conspires with close friends to beat up journalists, and when it comes to the duties of public office, about as useful as breasts on a rattle snake.

Yet he has survived so long in London as mayor, managed to get in govement and survive both the fall of the previous guard, thr rise of the new and such.
Maybe he is like that but he knows exactly how to sail the waters unlike some of his others who sank and ran aground on the political sand bars and rocks.

True, but it could also be a damning indictment of how bad democracy is getting in the UK that we elect gawk poor leaders like Bojo...

I watch the odd debate in the Commons now and again, and one debate in particular, was very revealing.

It was about the Syria situation and judging by their speeches and answers, a big chuck of our MPs did not have at least a working knowledge of NATO, Middle East politics, or basic geopolitics. It was a real eye opener...

And these are the people who make the big decisions for us

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

Because she can't? We have fixed term Parliaments now, so it isn't that simple. The only to get around that is with 2/3 support of MP's, or a no Confidence vote. The former is unlikely, and the threat of the latter would probably force most of the Tory party to fall in for fear of losing their salaries.

Speaking of which, thats an excellent way to suppress rebellious backbenchers. "Obey me or I'll give your constituents a chance to kick you out".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

True, but it could also be a damning indictment of how bad democracy is getting in the UK that we elect gawk poor leaders like Bojo...

We don't elect Leaders. We elect individual MP's to represent our local area. The MP's decide amongst themselves (as well as party members, depending on the party) who gets to lead. Its always been this way.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Why May doesn't call a snap GE is beyond me...

Because she can't? We have fixed term Parliaments now, so it isn't that simple. The only to get around that is with 2/3 support of MP's, or a no Confidence vote. The former is unlikely, and the threat of the latter would probably force most of the Tory party to fall in for fear of losing their salaries.

Speaking of which, thats an excellent way to suppress rebellious backbenchers. "Obey me or I'll give your constituents a chance to kick you out".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

True, but it could also be a damning indictment of how bad democracy is getting in the UK that we elect gawk poor leaders like Bojo...

We don't elect Leaders. We elect individual MP's to represent our local area. The MP's decide amongst themselves (as well as party members, depending on the party) who gets to lead. Its always been this way.

This fixed term parliament act is a nonsense. Who's to blame? Nick Clegg I'll wager

No, that'd be Call Me Dave, if memory serves.

Why is it nonsense? It prevents the government from being able to arbitrarily pick a time which is best for it to go to the polls. Think about it, you're saying that May should throw a snap election now, despite it being only two years into the term won at the last one.

That is not a stable way to run a country. It puts too much power into the hands of the executive and majority party to dictate the terms of the election to suit themselves rather than the people and the country as a whole. It brings to mind an episode of The New Statesman in which the Tories call an election with the hopes of losing to Labour, including trying to sabotage their own campaign, as they know that the north sea oil is going to run out soon and want labour to be holding the bucket when that happens so they can blame it on Labour and then sweep back in.

I agree, I don't like the idea of the Executive being able to stitch up a General Election by calling it at an opportune moment.

But we desperately need a General Election right now. We have an ineffective opposition crippled by infighting and navel gazing. And we have a Government locked into a course of action (Brexit) that it doesn't really want to go down but is backed into a corner by the Eurosceptic wing of the party and the result of the Referendum which it's Party(under Cameron) pledged to hold and respect.

A General Election should (unless we get another hung Parliament) help to stabilise the situation. All parties should declare their positions on the issue of Brexit, For or Against, and campaign on that basis.

Peter Hitchens has said for years that the only way we'd ever achieve a British withdrawal from the European Union is via the Ballot Box in a General Election with a Party and Government united behind that goal, and not in a referendum which he viewed as an attempt to stitch up the issue (which it was, Cameron was over confident and thought the Referendum was a master stroke that would shut up the Eurosceptics for good...only it backfired).

And I'm inclined to agree with him.

Basically we've got a stalemate that seems to be going nowhere. A general election might break that stalemate.

If a general election was called and won by a party campaigning to envoke article 50 I guess that would legitimise it further.