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Warning, very big rant ahead:

Games Workshop has always been scum about this. Majority of the reasons why none of my friends can get into this damn hobby is because
of the bs they pull off with their prices. Half the time me and my friends have to buy used models off ebay just so we could have enough to get a game going. My local games store owner tried to justify Game's workshop's business model, saying how there are certain models that have to be expensive in order to balance the game and not have everyone with really over powered units. He also went to explain how there had also been a tin shortage a couple years back which caused the models to skyrocket in price. While that's true, it doesn't justify the fact that all it is is just a plastic mold that costs ¢19 to manufacture and then have to slap a $45 price tag at the end of it.

Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this. And on top of all that, my friends now have to buy the citadel paint sets and brushes for yet again another $30 - $40. What the hell GW?

The reality is that a small plastic squad of 10 Space Marines should only have to cost $10 - $20, and then Tanks such as Rhino cost $25 - $35. If GW REALLY wanted to get more people on board with this hobby, why not make it, I don't know, more available and affordable?

How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.

At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)

If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.

Edit: What I said about MTG being 'cheaper', I meant the starting fee into the hobby. A $20 starter deck vs. $85 - $240 starting army (varying on what race you choose).

I agree the pricing is ludicrous in my opinion.

They also argue that because revenue is down, the only way to make up lost ground is to increase prices, but I would argue that they are so far past the supply and demand curve that they have priced themselves so high that it is hindering their revenue.

I would love to start second or third armies, but I wont because of the costs entailed. If I could get a box of marines for even 20-25 I would be a lot more likely to get it.

The flaw in your logic is characterizing GW as "a hobby."

GW is just one company, there are many other games available with much lower entry points, some with fluff that comfortably matches Warhammer (X Wing?)

Equally you don't need to buy Citadel anything, there are many other quality paint manufacturers and most of the time the tools and brushes can easily be bought without the branding for substantially less (brushes wise you can buy better than GW for less money.)

40K is, for me at least right now, offering very little ROI, but even if you're insistent that only 40K will do, there's Kill Team or One Page 40K that both offer the experience with smaller model counts, and subsequently less investment.

As Azreal13 says, GW is one company. There are many others, nearly all of which are cheaper.

Play Historicals and discover the world of 28mm plastic figures that cost 30 pence each.

To be honest I don't think GW cares about attracting new players. They're kept afloat by the people who spend $5000 a year or more on miniatures. Some people collect every army and buy every kit that GW produces. When a new codex comes out and the power creeps forward, the competitive players just buy a new army from whatever faction is GW's flavour of the week. No point in playing a game that you can't win, after all.

Meanwhile forgeworld provides a way for the most "dedicated" fans to soar above the rest of us peasants. Now they have their own 40k with better minis and better rules, and it just happens to require three or four times as many models. So the 30K elites look down on us from their ivory towers and snicker while we struggle with our broken game and its ever-shifting, perpetually obsolete ruleset.

Luckily fans have run out of excuses to continue "supporting" GW, and Chinese pirates are taking full advantage of the situation.

A plastic toy that you can buy at toys R us is not even close to the same quality and durability as a GW plastic kit. Same with action figures/wraithlord. Its different because one is supposed to withstand the brunt force of children playing while the other is supposed to be a modeling display piece that lasts forever (theoretically).

Yes I agree that Warhammer is expensive. Buuuuuut I don't believe that certain models have to be expensive to balance them. Both the Wraithknight and the Gorkanaut are like 110 dollars, so that point is moot. Your game store owner is dumb. Yes 5 models for 50 is silly but that's pretty much been their standard.

Get a start collecting box, or play their board games which come with miniatures, or play a small game of AoS. Its really about how much you want to invest. Did I put off buying Dark Souls 3 to buy Thunderwolf Cavalry? Yes, because I wanted it. If you can't keep up with multiple expensive things than don't. As much as I want cheaper models the reality is its not happening at the moment.

And MTG cheaper? hehhhehehheheh......that depends on if you want to lose or not. A typical modern deck runs from 200-500 dollars. And don't tell me about building a budget deck, because I have a budget legacy deck: still 135 dollars.

Daemon host has got a point though.

For those of us invested in 40k, the money required to play the game is a very serious barrier to gathering new interest in our peer groups. I myself can think of 5 people in my small town that would be into 40k in a big way if it didn't cost as much as it does. I don't think it would even require a drastic change in price, just a bit.

I think if they lowered their prices, they would peddle far more product, we would have many more hobbyists wandering around out there, and the amount of unique armies I could face off against would increase twofold.

Not to mention that I myself would be giving them lots more money than I am now if I could get a little bit more stuff for it. I just can't buy some of their products because it offends my sensibilities, what I'm getting for the money doesn't even come close to making sense. Their hobby supplies especially...

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Daemon host has got a point though.

For those of us invested in 40k, the money required to play the game is a very serious barrier to gathering new interest in our peer groups. I myself can think of 5 people in my small town that would be into 40k in a big way if it didn't cost as much as it does. I don't think it would even require a drastic change in price, just a bit.

I think if they lowered their prices, they would peddle far more product, we would have many more hobbyists wandering around out there, and the amount of unique armies I could face off against would increase twofold.

Not to mention that I myself would be giving them lots more money than I am now if I could get a little bit more stuff for it. I just can't buy some of their products because it offends my sensibilities, what I'm getting for the money doesn't even come close to making sense. Their hobby supplies especially...

Its all about the size. 85 dollars for a start collecting can get you a 500 point army. Glue is 4 dollars. You can borrow your friends paints (does nobody else borrow paints? just curious) You can play at a game store for their terrain. I don't think that's asking too much tbh. I mean, the only reason we think video games aren't bad is because we already have the console/PC that can play them. Starting from scratch is always going to be hard. Talking about getting into 40k specifically? There's some bloat from rules/formations that I think would be hard for anyone. I suggest getting a few models and play the fan rules for Kill Team. Theres always an alternative. We can talk about pricing until the cows come home but GW gave the cows a one way ticket out of the country.

Hasbro, mantic etc are cheap as 1) quality is mostly poorer and 2) its made mostly in china. I'm willing to spend a bit more on quality, UK manufactured models. Also, GW is not any more than lots of other manufacturers with similar quality: Hawk wargames, Anvil industry, privateer press etc.

I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.

Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!

Tailessine wrote:
Hasbro, mantic etc are cheap as 1) quality is mostly poorer and 2) its made mostly in china. I'm willing to spend a bit more on quality, UK manufactured models.

That's a very solid point, quality always comes first.

But isn't all just with the use of plastic and a mold to produce these models? So how is it any different for if china lets say were to do it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.

Well keep in mind that's probably where shipping costs come in to which that extra gap of money compensates.

Guys and gals. Please, GW became a publicly listed company on the FTSE 100. That means it has shareholders, and what do shareholders like? Anyone? DIVIDENDS!

 Don Savik wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Daemon host has got a point though.

For those of us invested in 40k, the money required to play the game is a very serious barrier to gathering new interest in our peer groups. I myself can think of 5 people in my small town that would be into 40k in a big way if it didn't cost as much as it does. I don't think it would even require a drastic change in price, just a bit.

I think if they lowered their prices, they would peddle far more product, we would have many more hobbyists wandering around out there, and the amount of unique armies I could face off against would increase twofold.

Not to mention that I myself would be giving them lots more money than I am now if I could get a little bit more stuff for it. I just can't buy some of their products because it offends my sensibilities, what I'm getting for the money doesn't even come close to making sense. Their hobby supplies especially...

Its all about the size. 85 dollars for a start collecting can get you a 500 point army. Glue is 4 dollars. You can borrow your friends paints (does nobody else borrow paints? just curious) You can play at a game store for their terrain. I don't think that's asking too much tbh. I mean, the only reason we think video games aren't bad is because we already have the console/PC that can play them. Starting from scratch is always going to be hard. Talking about getting into 40k specifically? There's some bloat from rules/formations that I think would be hard for anyone. I suggest getting a few models and play the fan rules for Kill Team. Theres always an alternative. We can talk about pricing until the cows come home but GW gave the cows a one way ticket out of the country.

I agree with the points you make, but I counter with the fact that everyone who begins to look at 40k knows they would eventually want more than a start collecting box and a kill team game every now and then.

The way it is now, 40k is more of a lifestyle choice at first glance than a fun little game to play around with and some models to paint, especially for someone with little to no miniature wargaming background. It appears that it will require significant investments over time to continue the enjoyment of the hobby. If everyone could stop and be satisfied with their start collecting boxes, it wouldn't be a problem.

I will say however that this is the best time to get into 40k, because of the start collecting boxes. Hopefully we see more and more discount boxes, although I think it will stop at the start collecting ones.

TlR - I think it's not simply the cost of entry into the hobby, but the cost of upkeep as well, with new releases and rules changing what's viable.

With miniature games I'm playing, I try to aim for multiple uses out of the same minis if i can.

Currently building towards a Frostgrave warband, but i also want to collect Age of Sigmar, so I'll be using GW skeletons/zombies/banshees etc.

I know its not 100% possible for every model, but it definitely swung me towards collecting a death army as opposed to a savage orc army, as I'd still need skeletons for Frostgrave regardless

If the price is too high, don't buy them. It's up to the market to dictate the price, and if GW can't turn a profit by selling minis at the current price, then they'll have to reduce them to let more people into the hobby.
They're currently doing slightly below par when it comes to profits, at around £10 million before (I think) tax, which for an international company isn't huge numbers.

People ar willing to pay for their plastic toys, and they're willing to pay whatever GW has priced them at. Once that gets too high, then things will have to change.

Again, as others have said, it's a hobby. If you don't like the price, don't play.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Guys and gals. Please, GW became a publicly listed company on the FTSE 100. That means it has shareholders, and what do shareholders like? Anyone? DIVIDENDS!

They're on the LSE. Not in their wildest dreams will they ever make the FTSE100!

Besides, your point makes no sense. What are dividends made of? Profits! How do you make profits? Sell as much gak as possible!

Being a PLC may change some of a company's priorities, but making as much money as possible isn't one of them. Practices that limit the generation of profits is just as dumb an idea for a public company as a private. That GW has persisted in some apparently restrictive practices suggests that a) they're in possession of information we're not privy to that suggests that they're doing it right or b) they were run by an incompetent with a coterie of yes men.

Either is as possible as the other, but given some of the steps recently, I'd lean towards b.

My primary gripe with Games Workshop is the overwhelming inconsistency in their pricing.

Some of this is pay-to-win ($30 for a single character sprue?) and some is just inexplicable.

Then you have Start Collecting boxes and some of their board games (ie. Betrayal at Calth) which are quite fair, particularly with a retailer discount.

The only suggestions I can make:

1) Never buy from GW directly. This should be obvious but we live in the day of the internet/ebay/etc. It's incredibly common to find 20-25% discount and occasionally free shipping. So, obviously skip GW.

2) Never buy any peripheral products from Games Workshop as they're criminally priced. And normally crap to boot. Brushes, dice, templates, bases, glue, paints, etc. All can be purchased elsewhere for far less and often at better quality. This is money you're throwing away for zero reason. That $9-11 dollar bottle of PVA glue? It's frikkin' Elmer's glue, etc. Avoid their figure cases, etc.

3) If you're not playing in some kind of GW sanctioned tournament and you're playing an army with suitable 3rd party options...look into them.

4) Learn to strip models. While you can't make up for a poorly assembled model, there are some deals to be had on ebay if you're willing to spend a day soaking some figures in Super Clean and hitting them with a toothbrush etc. This is particularly important with metals as they can be 100% restored to factory condition with stripping and brushing...brand new. Don't let a 12 year old's terrible paintjob put you off an ebay auction.

But, at the end of the day...there are a lot of overpriced Games Workshop products and often they're linch pin units for certain armies. I only collect 2nd edition stuff so it's reasonable on ebay most of the time --- and I fill vehicle slots with modern plastics which are "okay" on the price front. Do I own any $42 boxes of resin (ugh!) Aspect Warriors? No. No I do not.

All of this being said, while 40K has a large "cool" factor there are a load of excellent miniatures games out there you could be doing. Consider downloading Necromunda rules and see about going that route. Kit-bashing up a gang can be tremendous fun and you'll end up with 15-20 figures each...max. Skirmish wargaming is a very good option if you want to get a great gaming experience with slightly less output (I say that, and I've spent $1500+ on an Old West table for a game I run...).

There are ways into it for reasonable prices...but not always. I feel your pain.

You can play even with legos or without actual 3d models.

Otherhand you can get painted used models in cheap price.

 Griddlelol wrote:
If the price is too high, don't buy them. It's up to the market to dictate the price, and if GW can't turn a profit by selling minis at the current price, then they'll have to reduce them to let more people into the hobby.
They're currently doing slightly below par when it comes to profits, at around £10 million before (I think) tax, which for an international company isn't huge numbers.

People ar willing to pay for their plastic toys, and they're willing to pay whatever GW has priced them at. Once that gets too high, then things will have to change.

Again, as others have said, it's a hobby. If you don't like the price, don't play.

It's not a hobby, it's a game within the hobby! For a company that doesn't 'do' marketing, GW have really done a number on a lot of people in convincing them otherwise!

As to profits, they announced that they didn't expect to break £16m in the interim report, but have subsequently issued a statement that they've actually performed slightly above expectations, so it's anyone's guess. The FYE report is due in a week or two.

If they have shown an upturn, I don't think the increase in good value Start Collecting boxes and games that offered great value in the miniatures will have had nothing to do with that.

 Draco wrote:
You can play even with legos or without actual 3d models.

Otherhand you can get painted used models in cheap price.

Legos? Hah, Legos make 40k look affordable as a hobby!

 Azreal13 wrote:


It's not a hobby, it's a game within the hobby! For a company that doesn't 'do' marketing, GW have really done a number on a lot of people in convincing them otherwise!

As to profits, they announced that they didn't expect to break £16m in the interim report, but have subsequently issued a statement that they've actually performed slightly above expectations, so it's anyone's guess. The FYE report is due in a week or two.

If they have shown an upturn, I don't think the increase in good value Start Collecting boxes and games that offered great value in the miniatures will have had nothing to do with that.

Tomato, tomato. It's an entertainment product, which isn't necessary (also it's worth pointing out that OP complained about buying citadel paints, unquestionably part of the hobby). The pricing will work itself out. I hope they make things a bit more affordable, but it's always been a rather expensive hobby/game/tomato.

From what I can gather, is that they had a pretty OK year, but that Xmas last year was a little disappointing in terms of purchases.

@ Azrael(whatever). Yep, no probs with that first point, I am a bit squiffy at the moment so my share market is a bit off. However, how do you rebuke my argument with 'Profit!' when I said shareholders like dividends? Where do you think they come from? Fairy dust?

regarding 40k pricing it's worth noting that their minis aren't nesscarily HORRIFICLY priced, slightly more expensive sure but also better quality in most cases. the problem is that you also need so many minis to play the game. compare 40k to X-wing. an X-wing mini is actually not a great deal on a "mini to mini" cost (each x-wing mini is 15 bucks) BUT, with X-wing games only being about 100 points, the largest army you're looking at is maybe 10 models. meanwhile for 40k 10 models is your starting point.

that's 40ks biggest problem, scale. and honestly we're just as much the problem as GW. if people regularly played smaller games, maybe 750 points, it would reduce the cost of entry to new players. granted GW does enchourage the larger scale stuff, so it's hardly JUST OUR FAULT. but.. the scale of game play, is certainly a big contributing factor

Devils Advocate here. GW can be actually really cheap depending on how often you play. While the initial start up is expensive in the long run it's cheap.

People spend $1000s on drugs and that lasts what a few hours, minutes? A lot of people pay for sex. That is what 30 seconds of pleasure? Going out for dinner can be anywhere $20-$100 bucks, and you just crap it out. Same for drinking. People can put down $100-$200 at a bar and then just piss it out.

Then you have my wife, goes to bingo for what 2-3 hours and then most times looses. So who is actually spending a lot of money for their hobby? Once you buy GW you always have it.

Now that said, I agree with you, I find the prices asinine. But thing is, GW is a want, not a need. Do we want fancy cars? Of course most of us would love them but can't afford them. Does that mean we cry and rant about it?

If you really want that GW then you have to save for it. Since it's only your friends who want to play, you guys can set a limit on what points you want, and work with that, and slowly expand on it. If it takes not getting that Starbucks for a while, so be it. It all depends on how much you want it.

I use to rant about prices, hell sometimes I still complain about them. Thing is, you either accept it or not. I just basically buy what I can and miss out on what I want, but won't buy because I don't want to fund GW practices. It seems a lot of us are voting with our wallet now. We have accepted GW will charge high prices, we will not pay for it.

So going eBay is a good way to go. If you need to vote with your wallet do so. Rant about it, it's good to get it off your chest. Too bad a lot of people on Dakka can't see that some people need to vent and feel better after doing so, but will always need to make snide comments on it.

I just found a group of people to play with. We are starting small, basically 400 point games basically the Get Started box sets. We are slowly building off them. So do what you are doing, buy off eBay, save when you can, and just build slowly. I don't use GW paints as much anymore so that helps.

Just remember, you either accept or don't. If you don't accept, then just quit or take a break. I have done so, so many times. If you accept, rant a bit like you did, feel better, and just buy what you can. I know it sucks not being able to buy what we want, but use "counts as" when needed, but a pot of paint a week or every pay check and just work up slowly. Remember accept we are not GW customer base. We are just icing on the cake for them if we buy. Food we need. Air we need. Shelter we need. GW we don't need. GW needs us. If they will not do anything to get us to be customers so be it. That said, GW is changing. Time will tell if for the better or not. We are in a new age now with GW the Age of Rountree.

Also there is Kill Team rules we can all play for very small point games, and when needed adjust the rules if you want to play bigger point games. If you don't have the minis, then the minis that die, just bring them back from reserves. Adjust to what you guys need for fun. Then eventually you will see your collection get larger over time. We don't have to buy all at once no matter how much I/we would love to.

Also your rant wasn't very long. I think mine was.

 Whittlesey40k wrote:
I've ranted about GW prices before, but to be fair they're not that bad. You can't compare detailed multi-part minis to GI Joe. What gets me is the entry cost and the inconsistency. You and your buddy want to start 'hammering? You'll need the rules, and a codex each. That'll be £120 (not sure about dollars). That's a hell of an investment before even buying minis. Then the inconsistency - 10 tac marines are £25, so 5 assault marines are £12.50. Right? Wait, they have jump packs, so add £1 each. That's £17.50. Right? Nope, GW want £25 again. WTF? There's examples like that all over the place.

Oh, and if GW allow distributors to sell at up to 20% off, why don't they do that? They can obviously afford to sell at 20% off but decide to screw the people who show their local GW store some loyalty!!

You can compare detailed multi-part miniatures from GW to detailed multi-part miniatures from several other companies such as Perry Bros or Warlord.

When you do this it comes down to the fact that American Civil War infantry, Vikings, and Napoleonic Hussars did not adorn themselves with tentacles and mounds of skulls.

If you want a model with tentacles and skulls all over it, you will have to buy a GW model and accept whatever price GW sets.

Alternatively you can save 90% of the cost by not buying GW and buying a historical game instead.

I think a lot of it comes down to perceived 'value', I'm not denying GW stuff is a bit on the steep side but lets compare it to a few other things;

A Games Console, in the UK both the PS4 or Xbox1 will run you somewhere between £200-£250(ish) depending on bundle, a fair sized 1080p TV is about the same give or take, then a couple of games at say £40 a time, so we are already around the £500 mark,
I'm fairly sure you could get at least 3000pts or so of GW for that

Or maybe a gaming PC, at the low end / self build this is going to be £300-£400, with maybe another £100-£150 for an acceptable monitor, PC games tend to be a smidge cheaper than Consoles due to digital distrubtion etc but still say £30 a time, so again around the £500 mark

I'll grant you most physical hobbys might be cheaper but some are scary pricey, usually anything involving rackets or bicycles !

Also as others have mentioned GW is not the be all and end all of 'hobby', many other games have a much lower buy in, I'm fairly sure you could get a viable starting force in both Warmahordes or X-Wing for around the £100 mark, something you'd struggle with for 40k, same applies to paint, brushes etc, just because it's GW branded it doesn't make it magically superior, there is a whole Internet out there why not try using it.

GW models aren't priced "pay to win" or "pay more to balance the game" they are priced around expected sales upon release verses the cost of the production (molds/packaing/shipping/storage).

Clampacked generals for $30 aren't priced that way because they are soo bad ass they need to priced $30 to keep you from buying many of them, they are priced that way because it's expected you'll only buy 1, or 2, for your army. The cost of production has to be spread out through a significantly smaller amount of sales to recoup the investment.

The fact that's it's $.15 a model worth of plastic means little. It's the $10,000 for the steel mold that matters.

A Tactical Squad from a $50,000 mold will outsell a clampack HQ 10 to 1, bringing the price per model significantly down, even though it cost significantly more to produce to mold.

Yeah scale is the main thing. I have enjoyed 500 point games, mordheim and Quest so its not necessary for large games to have fun.

Comparing to other lines with equivalent materials, I'd say GW is not horribly off.

I think they're a bit overpriced compared to equivalents, that the volume they sell in could allow them to undercut the market and still make a profit off of greater volume, think they should really have made their army size more accessible, and don't agree with a lot of their aesthetic choices, but I don't think they're horribly off.

Re: brick and mortar selling at a discount, I can't tell if you're joking. Either way, GW isn't lowering their cut proportionally, they're just allowing stores to lower their own cut, and knowing retail, many can't handle the percentage difference.

Unless you are loaded with cash, you should consider GW to be a vendor of last resort, most GW products can be sourced online from 3rd party resellers or second hand from ebay for quite a bit less than GW's prices. GW probably maintain those prices in part to encourage resellers to stock them. When a manufacturer also does direct selling as GW does then it makes 3rd party resellers nervous of being undercut by their own supplier, when that happens they don't reorder, so GW steadily keeps up the high prices and allows the resellers room to be the ones to undercut GW. Or so I guess.

Another thing to consider is that the models actually retain their value quite well and can potentially last a lifetime. That £25 box of tactical marines can give you decades of enjoyment and then sell for quite a comparable amount when you finally tire of them. If you can give them a really good paint job they might well sell for quite a bit more than you paid for them.

Their main game 40k is fairly scalable, so you can play with just a 500pt army for starters and gradually add a little to it every few months. It looks hyper expensive if you draw up a 2500pt list then go look on GW's webstore for how much it will cost but that isn't the right way to do it. Draw up a few different lists from the codices you like, then make a mini list of around 500pts out of the units you would want in your mega list, then see about sourcing the models for the mini-list from resellers and ebay first, only dipping into GW direct if you can't find what you want elsewhere. That will do very well for starters and won't cost too much.

Also it never hurts to look out for models from other companies that might make a reasonable proxy, they aren't always cheaper though especially the resin ones. Also shop around on paints, tools and brushes, very often other brands are better value for money.

Finally you can play 40k with paper cut outs mounted on cardboard if you really want to save money.