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White Scars are really built around their bikes and have access to more bike types and more land speeders along with some nice rules that came with the new formations in Kauyon. That said, Ravenwing Black Knights do have Plasma Talons which are VERY strong. Downside, they can "get hot." They do have access to the basic Land Speeder and a nice formation that mix Bike Squads and Land Speeders. I'm caught in the middle. I'm leaning toward Ravenwing but only because I already have a DA army. That doesn't mean I would be against starting a new army.

Which do you think is best for a mainly Bike and Land Speeder army? White Scars or Ravenwing and why?

Thanks

SG

I go with Ravenwing. Rerollable 4+ jink is just nasty and they got some very strong Speeder formations too (rerollable 2+ Jink anyone?)

Not to mention you get access to Sammael, a EW jetbiker with a relentless plasma cannon and AP2 sword.

What Land Speeders don't Ravenwing get access to? If anything, Ravenwing have more speeder types, between the Dark Shroud and the other one I never use with the overpriced plasma weapon.

I'd go with Ravenwing. Better bike bonuses, better built-in synergies, better psychic disciplines, and Ravenwing Knights to boot.

How many kind of Landspeeders are there? You mean they are the same land speed but with different lay outs, or there are actual different kits for different land speeders? I thought they all looked the same.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
What Land Speeders don't Ravenwing get access to?

Land Speeder Storm is the main one that comes to mind. It would be a nice skimmer transport, but not for DA. Neither the Darkshroud nor the Land Speeder Vengeance are transports.

SG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
How many kind of Landspeeders are there? You mean they are the same land speed but with different lay outs, or there are actual different kits for different land speeders? I thought they all looked the same.

Land Speeder and Land Speeder Storm... the latter of which is a transport (which would be nice).

SG

Thank you ServiceGames, I don't follow Space Marines much so didn't know there was a Landspeeder Storm.

2+ REROLLABLE cover saves, so hard to get through.
only way to beat them is CC, and they are WAY too fast to ever reach them if they don't want to.

Ravenwing is unique in that you can now field a pure landspeeder army. I had a thread about it a while ago and general consensus was that while extremely fragile and difficult to use, it was actually workable and in the hands of someone who knew what they're doing can be deadly (land speeders can mount weapons that can deal with most situations and can make better use of Multimeltas because they can get in range fast).

Obviously if you want all-speeders, you need Sableclaw (the alternative to Sammael in a Ravenwing Army) or just run formations.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Obviously if you want all-speeders, you need Sableclaw (the alternative to Sammael in a Ravenwing Army) or just run formations.

I actually already have the Sableclaw.

So far, this is what I have in terms of Ravenwing

Sammael in Sableclaw
Ravenwing Command Squad (Champion, Banner Bearer, and Apothecary)
3 x Ravenwing Black Knights (one grenadier, the other two with Plasma Talons)
2 x Land Speaders each with Heavy Bolters and Typhoon Missile Launchers
2 x Bike Squad (one squad with a Flamer the other with a Plasma Gun)
1 x Darkshroud (magnetized to be able to become a Land Speeder Vengeance)

I also do have a Dark Talon that is fully magnetized to be able to become a Nephilim Jetfighter, but using the Ravenwing Strike Force, the entire detachment would have to start in reserves because the flyer has to start in reserve.

I'm considering adding another set of Black Knights to the list or maybe a couple of Attack Bikes instead.

Thanks

SG

MekLeN wrote:
2+ REROLLABLE cover saves, so hard to get through.
only way to beat them is CC, and they are WAY too fast to ever reach them if they don't want to.

Even in close combat they are nasty, stasis bomb in on them, HoW on the attack, then with their initiative they normally get to smack first, on top of that, if you have a command squad, you get to auto pass your hit and ran at a 4d6

Question... what about the Plasma Talons and the Gets Hot rule? Wouldn't the Ravenwing Dark Knights end up killing themselves fairly quickly?

Thanks

SG

The nice thing about White Scars is you could build the army, paint them a different color, and play them as any chapter fairly easily in the C:SM. Also you'd get access to some of the new faction agnostic units, like Celestine, Greyfax, and others that may release over time, while Dark Angels (so far) do not. Also, hit and run is pretty nice, since your bikes will be vulnerable to melee.

Although that all being said, I personally would go DA, but that's because i've already been collecting Ultramarines, and white scars are effectively Ultramarines of a different color.

 ServiceGames wrote:
Question... what about the Plasma Talons and the Gets Hot rule? Wouldn't the Ravenwing Dark Knights end up killing themselves fairly quickly?

Thanks

SG

They're twin-linked. So with a reroll, a 3+ armor save, and a FNP, it's not too bad.

OK, one more question... what about anti-air?

Thanks

SG

The Dark Angels Flyers are traditionally piloted by the Ravenwing, so you can drop one in your list for AA.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Dark Angels Flyers are traditionally piloted by the Ravenwing, so you can drop one in your list for AA.

I do have a Dark Talon/Nephilim Jetfighter magnetized to be able to be changed into either one. Just don't know if I want to carry around a flyer all the time in a bike army.

SG

Fair enough, but I'm not sure you'll have much AA with the Ravenwing with out them.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Fair enough, but I'm not sure you'll have much AA with the Ravenwing with out them.

I can't disagree. Unfortunately, DA weren't left with many options as far as Anti-Air goes unless you want to go Forgeworld. I do have a Mark V Mortis Pattern Dreadnought with dual TL LC with Skyfire, but he doesn't work with a pure Ravenwing army.

SG

Yeah, since you have one (the flyer), I'd suggest planning on using it for now, until you can find a better option. Or just try not to worry about flyers.

In my competitive lists I run COTGW + RSF + LibCon, and the COTGW gives a great spot for a Fire Raptor (FW).

 Marmatag wrote:
The nice thing about White Scars is you could build the army, paint them a different color, and play them as any chapter fairly easily in the C:SM. Also you'd get access to some of the new faction agnostic units, like Celestine, Greyfax, and others that may release over time, while Dark Angels (so far) do not. Also, hit and run is pretty nice, since your bikes will be vulnerable to melee.

Although that all being said, I personally would go DA, but that's because i've already been collecting Ultramarines, and white scars are effectively Ultramarines of a different color.

All of the DA bikes have hit and run, also what do you mean DA cant use Celestine and Greyfax? I don't have their book but I thought all Imperium armies could take them.

zalak wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The nice thing about White Scars is you could build the army, paint them a different color, and play them as any chapter fairly easily in the C:SM. Also you'd get access to some of the new faction agnostic units, like Celestine, Greyfax, and others that may release over time, while Dark Angels (so far) do not. Also, hit and run is pretty nice, since your bikes will be vulnerable to melee.

Although that all being said, I personally would go DA, but that's because i've already been collecting Ultramarines, and white scars are effectively Ultramarines of a different color.

All of the DA bikes have hit and run, also what do you mean DA cant use Celestine and Greyfax? I don't have their book but I thought all Imperium armies could take them.

He may be talking about the special multi-Codex detachments in the book that allow Codex: Space Marines units but don't allow Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, the Deathwatch....

I only been playing for less than 2 years but I've built up a nice sized DA army. For what's it's worth, I would definitely go Ravenwing. Your speeders will be jinking, so a rerollable jink is hard to pass on.

RW Support Squad is a great formation, so I would get another speeder first. I have always had typhoons on mine, the 48" range is nice.

What are you planning on having on the board turn 1?

I recently tried my Dark Talon out for a couple games for the first time and it was fairly lack luster due to missing with the bomb both times. I also finally got around to converting my bikes to Grav, very happy I did.

White Scars.

Still get access to SM goods like Centurions and TF Cannons.

Attack bikes benefit more from Chapter tactics, but Land Speeders are still very useful.

The Raptor Wing formation of Speeders and 2 Stormtalons fits nice with WS playstyle, and is auto include in all of my lists.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

zalak wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The nice thing about White Scars is you could build the army, paint them a different color, and play them as any chapter fairly easily in the C:SM. Also you'd get access to some of the new faction agnostic units, like Celestine, Greyfax, and others that may release over time, while Dark Angels (so far) do not. Also, hit and run is pretty nice, since your bikes will be vulnerable to melee.

Although that all being said, I personally would go DA, but that's because i've already been collecting Ultramarines, and white scars are effectively Ultramarines of a different color.

All of the DA bikes have hit and run, also what do you mean DA cant use Celestine and Greyfax? I don't have their book but I thought all Imperium armies could take them.

He may be talking about the special multi-Codex detachments in the book that allow Codex: Space Marines units but don't allow Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, the Deathwatch....

Celestine only goes in a CAD or Allied Detachment, but unfortunately Ravenwing can never be taken as Troops, but only in their own special detachment.

(I miss the days when Sammael/Belial/Azrael unlocked them for us as Troops :( )