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Yaho,

Well it's been 3 ish months since my first ever product return to GW in the form of DFS. I personally haven't regretted it since i've seen exactly 2 people use anything from the book ( and part exchanged it for a Stormsword).

But on the other hand I've also seen a considerably reduced contingent of flyers - myself included - since it's now questionable how you're supposed to use flyers.

Where is your community on the subject?

Never seen it used by anyone. Eldar players and other players who can gain an advantage from it seem to like it but never have the book at hand so it doesn't get used.

Played 2-3 games using the rules. Dogfighting is mostly a bust and the last game we basically forgot/ignored it. Flyer wings are ok but the bonus is basically only in effect when your wing flys on the board and then it becomes incredibly difficult to keep a formation in tact on a 6x4 board when your min move is something like 18 + pursuit value. Without the wing formation bonus flyers are outright worse than before unless you can make those mid movement turns. Air superiority is dumb when the player going 2nd can automatically get it because player 1's flyer wing came on.

My FLGS doesn't use the rules and people don't seem interested in bringing a ton of flyers. Eldar/Dark Eldar came out ahead I think with the new rules due to their high agility but I think for most armies it limits their options more than it expands.

The whole idea of paying to have some extra rule discussions / explain rules at your opponents and weaken your flyers in the process just isn't that popular.*

* note I only speak for the limited amount of games that I actually see.

No one at my local has used it after the inital test game, though it hasn't really had any effect on anyone regardless as it's fairly rare to see a flier these days outside of CSM taking a heldrake or a night scythe for 'Crons. Our paint comp this month is fliers though, so maybe that will change as everyone want to use their new shiny? Even if they do, I'm fairly sure DFtS will get ignored until they bring it in for 8th whenever that gets released and it's possible it'll get ignored then too.

I think it's a flop. Few talk about it and even fewer play it. We'll see what happens in the fututre. However I personally don't think there's ever been any used nor need for such rules, but that's oly a personal opinion.

I dont see any reason to make the game take longer by adding yet more rules and phases. Wont use it

I think it's fair to say it's a complete flop, nobody wants it and nobody uses it.

Most of the players in both of the stores I go to use it and seem to like it. I find it adds a lot of utility to flyers and find myself and other taking more flyers which I enjoy as well.

Havent used or seen it used. Most didn't bother buying it. I think the box at my LGS is from the initial order the set came from. Adds too much complication and in many peoples armies, their flyers aren't even included.

It flopped like oldzoggy had said it was kinda bad idea.

As soon as i found out it was going to be a rule replacement, i thought, "Why? Why add more rules to the game," and just as predicted no one uses it.

Dog fighting sounds really cool on paper, but, its just one more thing you have to deal with, on top of that, almost no one runs flyers. Out of the 3 stores in my area i go to, 1 being a GW store, the other 2 FLGS, i have seen a flyer hit the table a grand total of like 3 times.

Its not worth it, makes flyers weaker, and point wise, its not worth taking. The only time i could see people use it is in an Apoc game were you can spare the like 600+ points you need into order to even make a flyer formation, and even then, no one wants MORE rules during the 30 min+ turns that are apoc turns.

Nobody in my group uses it, and as far as I know, nobody in my group has even bought the book. I have no interest in it.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Its not worth it, makes flyers weaker, and point wise, its not worth taking. The only time i could see people use it is in an Apoc game were you can spare the like 600+ points you need into order to even make a flyer formation, and even then, no one wants MORE rules during the 30 min+ turns that are apoc turns.

I would argue it makes flyers quite a bit stronger overall. Reserve modifications are huge and you get them for bringing just 1 flyer. On top of that break turns let you stay on the board much easier and if you bring enough flyers for the wing bonuses they are actually really strong.

lusciifi wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Its not worth it, makes flyers weaker, and point wise, its not worth taking. The only time i could see people use it is in an Apoc game were you can spare the like 600+ points you need into order to even make a flyer formation, and even then, no one wants MORE rules during the 30 min+ turns that are apoc turns.

I would argue it makes flyers quite a bit stronger overall. Reserve modifications are huge and you get them for bringing just 1 flyer. On top of that break turns let you stay on the board much easier and if you bring enough flyers for the wing bonuses they are actually really strong.

I can agree with taht, but even still, you need to be able to afford those formations, and thats expensive point wise.

I think a Dark angels flyer formation costs around.....500~ points? which is a huge chunk to take on none scoring units, unless of course they are the core piece of your army.

I haven't seen anyone use it really. The feeling is that it is largely another lame duck dead on arrival release that just adds needless complexity without offering any meaningful play experience. Honestly, 40k just doesnt work as an aerial combat game and trying to force that with poor rules based on random tables doesnt help.

Well thats true for any formation. A riptide wing runs you 600+ points and people find the value in that.

You always have to weigh the costs/benifits for formations but I think in general DftS is more good then bad in encouraging list variety.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I haven't seen anyone use it really. The feeling is that it is largely another lame duck dead on arrival release that just adds needless complexity without offering any meaningful play experience. Honestly, 40k just doesnt work as an aerial combat game and trying to force that with poor rules based on random tables doesnt help.

QFT when they added fliers, god that was a Gak show for like a solid 4 months or so.

None of my gaming buddies were interested.

I want to use it to bring my two storm talons with my skitarii, but I really don't want yet another book! so far I'm already running stuff out of 3 codexes for mechanicus, 4 if I want fortifications. I would need the Death from the skies book to run anything from that book...


Plus they fethed up the storm Talon + Storm raven thing so bad. Needing 30" (18 minimum + 12 extra for the formation rule) to bring on three flyers in a formation? Feth off! I rather just run the old version.

I love the idea of tge Flyer Detachments. And the flight pattern buffs.

But that being said, I would still feel like a tool for using my Reserves bonuses.

My area is similar to a lot of others - no one is using it, and the main LGS we play at has sold very few. The general consensus seems to be that it's typical GW - a pretty interesting idea with really bad execution. This is from a meta that sees a lot fliers too. I actually have an army with 4 of them and it's not uncommon to see at least two on the table per army lately. Even with all that, there is still no interest for DFTS.

Only time I've heard of it was someone saying it makes the phases even more bloated as part of a conversation about how annoying psychic powers are in 7th. Apart from that it's just people on Dakka.

Nope, haven't seen any dogfights here too. And FW's "soon" is already moving into its 3rd month

I tried it out in a few test games. It wasn't my cup of Tea. It adds rules and subtracts fun from the game which is a bad combination.

However, it created an interesting social interaction. A subset of players (all Eldar or Space Marines) became incredibly militant that "This is how the game is meant to be played". It was another wedge driven into the gaming community, which it would appear is always a GW secondary goal with all of their products. Now 3 months later, I don't see those players using it. As far as I know, none of them bought the book, which is probably for the best.

In 2 weeks I'm attending a GT that has decided to use it. They hedged a bit before making their final decision, and then decided to use it without the Dogfight phase or the reserve manipulation. When I asked a series of questions on how to interpret several specific rules (Like how to measure angles in attack patterns or what to do with forgeworld fliers or the Vendetta) they weren't really prepared at 1st to answer the questions, but after some pushing, they arrived at some very reasonable answers. I think many events will be pushed to make some of these decisions and will be interested to see how they come down. I'd like to run a special RTT where we use it as a bit of a change of pace (Like when we run Kill Team or Apoc).

I think having clear answers to the rules questions might have tempered some of the enthusiasm for players to use it at this particular event. I'll be really interested to see if anyone does bring it out. Since a modified version of kill points are the primary in every single mission, and they are going along with the loss of skyfire for most fliers, I expect that a flier driven list would do just fine. Specifically, I think an Eldar list running Crimson Death, or a Space Marine list with lots of Storm Talons would do quite well.

I'm expecting that the more people actually run it in test games, the more they will reject it, and we might see a few Eldar players who play Eldar for easy mode 40K fighting for it, but generally most of us will just ignore it and do our best to forget about it just like GW is trying to do as they push out their Stormcloud attack (X-Wing 28mm version).

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I want to use it to bring my two storm talons with my skitarii, but I really don't want yet another book! so far I'm already running stuff out of 3 codexes for mechanicus, 4 if I want fortifications. I would need the Death from the skies book to run anything from that book...


Plus they fethed up the storm Talon + Storm raven thing so bad. Needing 30" (18 minimum + 12 extra for the formation rule) to bring on three flyers in a formation? Feth off! I rather just run the old version.

Just buy a raven and use the formation from the SM codex using two Talons and a Raven.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the bright side, everyone can now use Baledrakes without the lame Cultist + Sorcerer tax!

When the average games 2-3 hours the last thing you want is to extend it further.

Also the jump in prices stung alot of people, yet more price gouging from GW.

My average game is 4 hours. Orks.

I've never seen DFTS being used in my area. Our local tournaments do not use it at all, and indeed there aren't too many flyers being used around here. A notable exception was last tournament (in June), where several players had at least one flyer (I faced a Guard list with 2 Vultures). I've considered taking advantage of the lack of flyers (meaning less preparing for them on the part of other players) and prioritizing building and painting my Ravenwing Silence Squadron. Sure, the DA flyers aren't very good, but when no one has much, if any, AA...

Two players in my area use it, no one else.

The stand alone stormcloud assault is pretty fun..