Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think Manchu is rather... strong in his opinions of it all.

Effectively though, it's the same argument of The Galactic Empire being 'good' as it is for the Imperium in 40k being 'good.'

The argument tends to come from the Yuuzhan Vong era of the EU books (something I have very strong opinions on myself).

Basically, the argument goes, The Empire wasn't evil, even Palpatine wasn't evil, he was simply a Knight Templar. The Death Star and all those super weapons, according to the "New Jedi Order" books weren't cause Palpatine was an evil lunatic with a superweapon fixation. Not it was actually a direct and specific attempt to create weapons that would destroy the Yuuzhan Vong worldships, which would be undefeatable otherwise.

The Empire wasn't a homage to Palpatine's ego, it was in fact the only single possible way to unite the galaxy and survive the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

And so on and so on...


Personally, I think that's a lot of old tripe myself and I personally disregard anything in my own EU canon set after Vision of the Future. - I did admit I have strong opinions of it myself.

In saying that, I don't really agree with Manchu entirely. Like him, I agree that Star Wars is fundamentally a tale of Good and Evil and another thing I hold a really strong opinion on, is those fans who really love the concept of "Grey Jedi" or the "Keepers of the Balance" as known by some folks. I feel that is, to go very British for a moment, a load of old hogwash. Star Wars is about Good VS Evil. End of.

In saying that, Star Wars is also about people and characters with emotions and goals and opinions. And I think this is where I deviate from Manchu's opinion. - Overall, I'm a massive Thrawn fan and I'm a huge Pallaeon fan as well. However, I also like the sad tragedy of Pallaeon - he serves an ideal of an Empire that doesn't actually exist. I think that's a key difference. Some people like to go with the idea that Pallaeon serves the true Empire and they're really the 'good guys' because bs-ey reasons and that's what the Empire is really like. Nah, I prefer the idea that Pallaeon is deluding himself, he takes little snatches of hopes and ideas - like Thrawn and clings to them in a sea of genocide and murder.

Then... eventually... finally... He eventually does get his Empire, by working for it for literally decades. It's barely an Empire, just a handful of worlds but he's managed to forge it in a way he wanted it to be. It's not a tale of redemption, not really. More like reinvention.

And I like that.

That is awful. God I hate the entire Vong trainwreck.

As Compel described, there was this period in EU history, a direct result of Zahn's work with making engaging and likeable Imperial characters, where authors tried to make the Emperor and the Empire less evil and more Well Intentioned Extremists. It was super creepy, and kind of a jump the shark moment on the whole. I don't think Thrawn was really part of that trend though. His character set it into motion, but he kind of predates it. What made Thrawn so exciting was that he was a villain who didn't rely on the idiot ball to account for his failures or successes (and the idiot ball gets used a lot in the EU). Sure he was kind of a villain sue, but being a sue isn't automatically a bad thing, and I think Thrawn manages to be a stand out example of exactly why. Hell, in a universe that pretty much runs on Sues battling Sues, he's practically normal.

Though the whole paintings thing was indeed super silly.

The Vong defense conspiracy is a separate branch of the general pro-Empire sentiment. The basic contention is that the Empire itself is a rather neutral institution, and perhaps even morally superior (or at least equivalent) to the Republic. The problem, so the argument goes, is that Palpatine and his cronies ruined what could have been a wonderful government under a wiser leader. Of course, Thrawn is tge perfect candidate to reign and rule as a galactic philosopher king, a kind of SW version of Frederick the Great.

@Compel: if my views seem strong to you, keep in mind the saccharine adulation otherwise showered upon this characcter

So basically, if the Empire wasn't the Empire, it could be good. That is, if the Empire was based around a just system, instead of a corrupt, oppressive one, it would be good?

I'm not even sure what point a "theory" like that even has. That's like saying if the Empire wasn't the Empire, it wouldn't be the Empire. Okay.

Are there also apologists who are seriously claiming that the Empire are "actually the good guys" and are only being forced to do what they do because of the Rebellion and the Jedi before them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stop me if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the breadth and depth of these Empire-apologist theories. I've never really heard someone seriously make a claim like that, outside of maybe a few weird, unfunny jokes.

 Hordini wrote:
So basically, if the Empire wasn't the Empire, it could be good. That is, if the Empire was based around a just system, instead of a corrupt, oppressive one, it would be good?

I'm not even sure what point a "theory" like that even has. That's like saying if the Empire wasn't the Empire, it wouldn't be the Empire. Okay.

Are there also apologists who are seriously claiming that the Empire are "actually the good guys" and are only being forced to do what they do because of the Rebellion and the Jedi before them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stop me if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the breadth and depth of these Empire-apologist theories. I've never really heard someone seriously make a claim like that, outside of maybe a few weird, unfunny jokes.

It's more the idea that we were presented with a morally black & white world. Bearded space wizards good, anyone who looks kinda like a Downfall extra with Legos on their chest bad. No ifs, no buts. But, there are some folk out there who can't stomach that kind of lack of ambiguity, they must find or, if necessary, invent gray area to excuse their fandom of fictional "bad" things - Batman fans, essentially

Manchu's disgust seems to be at the fact Thrawn was not only the erotic-dream-level embodiment of that style of fandom's desires, it created a baseline example to which Imperial fans could always point to when they felt the need to justify their own "rebel antihero awesome badguy-but-not-really" characters in RPGs, games, and fanfics.

And yeah, those kind of people exist - I was heavy into Star Wars Galaxies on an RP server for many years and one of my characters was in a Stormtrooper guild, and there were a non-negligible amount of folk floating about the Imperial RP community who would deploy Dick Cheney-level dissembling and logic-twistery to turn the Rebs into the baddies, or at least as-baddies as the Empire, because they just couldn't handle playing a villain. One guy actually seriously deployed the "yeah the Empire blew up Alderaan, but they were supplying terrorists with weapons so it was totes justified and besides, the Rebs blew up the second Death Star and there must have been hundreds of thousands of poor innocent workers aboard that thing still building it so they're just as bad!" argument, that was hilarious.

Honestly, I was more excited by the Interceptors with Blood Stripes.

I like thrawn, that's all I will say about that.

and now I see him in this series, I will actually watch this series, so the makers have succeeded in getting another viewer, hopefully its good and not childish nonsense like the prequels.

Oh, it's nothing like the prequels.
Ezra might have started out a bit whiny, but he's no Hayden.

 Compel wrote:
Thrawn *and* Dark Troopers, awesome. All we need now is Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade and Corran Horn and that's the greatest hits of the EU back once more.

I watched Rebels at Christmas time and, to be honest, I really didn't enjoy it to start off with. Sure, it was fine for a kids show but, bumbling comic relief Imperial Officers, yurgh.

Then about halfway through the first series. Those daft, stupid, bumbling, comic relief villians that were basically the embodiement of what I disliked about the show. Well, they came down with a severe case of "lightsaber to the skull."

*That's* when I got into the show. So if you've tried an episode or two and didn't like it, I'd recommend sticking with it until after then, your opinions may do a major 180.

I loved Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy. Kyle Katarn would be so great. Think han solo turned into a jedi. Also if we have good guy ladies we need bad guy ladies too. Mara Jade would help. The silver lady that got trashed in 'The Force Awakens' puts her on RotJ boba fett banana peel slipping into a sarlacc pit ridiculousness.

I find Thrawn's character to be really interesting from what little i've heard. Through sheer skill he overcame The Empire's racism and managed to get a good leadership position. That's impressive. And we're talking hard racism like 'No non-humans can get leadership positions in most cases'.

 Manchu wrote:
I despise this character. Not only is the character a super-massive Mary Sue (who never does anything clever; he is just followed around by another character whose only purpose is to be in awe of him) but he's also a wish fulfillment character, probably the leading wish-fulfillment character, for all the folks out there who think the Empire could have been noble, just, and wonderful.

Salvation! This is music to my ears. For years I thought I was the only voice of dissent against Thrawn.

Thank you. A thousand times thank you

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
So basically, if the Empire wasn't the Empire, it could be good. That is, if the Empire was based around a just system, instead of a corrupt, oppressive one, it would be good?

I'm not even sure what point a "theory" like that even has. That's like saying if the Empire wasn't the Empire, it wouldn't be the Empire. Okay.

Are there also apologists who are seriously claiming that the Empire are "actually the good guys" and are only being forced to do what they do because of the Rebellion and the Jedi before them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stop me if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the breadth and depth of these Empire-apologist theories. I've never really heard someone seriously make a claim like that, outside of maybe a few weird, unfunny jokes.

It's more the idea that we were presented with a morally black & white world. Bearded space wizards good, anyone who looks kinda like a Downfall extra with Legos on their chest bad. No ifs, no buts. But, there are some folk out there who can't stomach that kind of lack of ambiguity, they must find or, if necessary, invent gray area to excuse their fandom of fictional "bad" things - Batman fans, essentially

Manchu's disgust seems to be at the fact Thrawn was not only the erotic-dream-level embodiment of that style of fandom's desires, it created a baseline example to which Imperial fans could always point to when they felt the need to justify their own "rebel antihero awesome badguy-but-not-really" characters in RPGs, games, and fanfics.

And yeah, those kind of people exist - I was heavy into Star Wars Galaxies on an RP server for many years and one of my characters was in a Stormtrooper guild, and there were a non-negligible amount of folk floating about the Imperial RP community who would deploy Dick Cheney-level dissembling and logic-twistery to turn the Rebs into the baddies, or at least as-baddies as the Empire, because they just couldn't handle playing a villain. One guy actually seriously deployed the "yeah the Empire blew up Alderaan, but they were supplying terrorists with weapons so it was totes justified and besides, the Rebs blew up the second Death Star and there must have been hundreds of thousands of poor innocent workers aboard that thing still building it so they're just as bad!" argument, that was hilarious.

I'm a fan of that style of RP as long as it's ironic. It's obviously what a society-brainwashed stormtrooper would say to justify their actions. It's what soldiers of evil regimes through history have said. Any well-rounded GM has roleplayed their antagonist characters like that.

What species is Thrawn? And what rank again?

 Future War Cultist wrote:
What species is Thrawn? And what rank again?

A Chiss.

Rank of Grand Admiral( In the books)

Legends wise, during TIE Fighter, he was a Vice Admiral (stationed aboard the VSD Stalwart) between the New Hope / Empire Strikes Back period. Then he got promoted to Grand Admiral not too long before ROTJ.

I have to admit I am really ignorant of Star Wars expanded universe stuff so this is the first time I've ever heard of him.

I like the idea of a non human imperial. I wish there was more to be honest.

Grand Admiral sounds pretty high ranking. Like, top rank. Who's higher though, him or Tarkin?

Neither really. Tarkin is a "Grand Moff" which is a pseudo-Civilian rank (based around planetary governorship - or in Tarkin's case, sector governorship). Whereas, Grand Admiral is a navy rank (as in, would command a fleet or task force).

EU-wise, Thrawn was one of 12 Grand Admirals in the galaxy. Being a non-human made him very unpopular, politically speaking, so he was sent to the Unknown Regions.

This was later retconned for him to be part of the super secret special mission to scout out for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

 Manchu wrote:
@Compel: if my views seem strong to you, keep in mind the saccharine adulation otherwise showered upon this characcter

He's a really great character. I think Compel said it best with "space Sherlock Holmes," a character that's just as Mary Sue-ish.

One of the things that a re-watch of the original trilogy makes clear is that nearly all of the Imperial officials are idiots. Tarkin won't release the fighter squadrons or evacuate, the gunner on Devestator won't shoot at an empty escape pod, Ozzel botches a hyperspace reentry, the moff building Death Star II was behind schedule, etc. Piet looks like a rock star just by not screwing up.

Of course, the OT isn't a retelling of the Rebellion any more than Band of Brothers is a history of World War II. The conflict is the setting and crucial to the story, but the OT is about the Skywalker family redeeming itself. Black/white morality, emphasis on personal heroics, overt mysticism: these are basically propaganda pieces for the Jedi/New Republic. And that's fine.

So yes, there's a massive shift in tone to the Zahn books. Part of that is showing a competent, clearly evil, villain. (This guy basically enslaves the Noghri, clearly is aware of the Empire's mission, and does not exactly swear off summary execution as a management tool). He seems to have superhuman abilities in what we'd call social anthropology or psychology, but I think that's cool. We're comfortable with aliens that are stronger or quicker or even better at math than humans, why not have an alien species with better social skills? I think there's some merit to the idea that understanding a culture's art can show you a lot about how they see the world. I think it's the sort of thing that gets oversimplified with retelling (Thrawn figures out tactics by looking at art) but it makes sense.

As for the respect from both sides, the novels lay out pretty clearly that the Grand Admirals were hand picked, and IIRC Leia comments that they thought they had accounted for them all.

He also falls into the Raistline zone. Who reads Star Wars EU books? Guys that know, deep down, physical heroics won't allow them to succeed. But give them a socially outcast, super smart character, and they eat that stuff up.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I like the idea of a non human imperial. I wish there was more to be honest.

The reason there are not more, or really any others, is because the Emperor and Imperial institutions more broadly are arch-speciesist; they despise aliens as sub-humans. Thrawn being a non-human is just another special snowflake factor in his lame characterization. He's the Drizzt of Star Wars, except he was designed to ultimately be defeated.

 Manchu wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I like the idea of a non human imperial. I wish there was more to be honest.

The reason there are not more, or really any others, is because the Emperor and Imperial institutions more broadly are arch-speciesist; they despise aliens as sub-humans. Thrawn being a non-human is just another special snowflake factor in his lame characterization. He's the Drizzt of Star Wars, except he was designed to ultimately be defeated.

Thinking about it, I actually can see why him being non-human, especially when first written, is annoying. All it really adds (since we learn nothing about the Chiss through him) is the "he must be amazing to be accepted when an alien!" factor. So, that's fair.

And, in the end, he was defeated, not by the protagonists (at least, no directly), but because he seriously underestimated the intelligence of an entire species. That's old fashioned hubris there, my friend.

 Polonius wrote:


He's a really great character. I think Compel said it best with "space Sherlock Holmes," a character that's just as Mary Sue-ish.

Honestly, in a entire universe inhabited and run by Sues, I just don't see how being one is a compelling draw back. The entire Star Wars universe is just one big Mary Sue of classic 40s and 50s space operas.

In the MMO SW:TOR if you played an alien as the Imperial Agent lots of people show disgust or talk about how surprised they are that an alien is competent enough to be an agent.

As for Sith the only other people that tend to give you grief are other Sith, and you usually get to kill them as Sith aren't really fond of one another typically.