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 Selym wrote:
And speaking of Eldar populations, would they ever have civil unrest?

Do they have non-military leaders?

Do they riot?

So many questions.

Each Craftworld may work under a different set of customs/hierarchy than another one.

Saim-Hann it's know to function in a kind of feudal hierarchy, with a single leader ruling each windrider clan, other Craftworlds in novels has been described as kind of a house hierarchy with the Exarch having little to no interference in craftworlds rules, others like biel-tan seems to be somewhat ruled by a kind of military council by the most important exarch of each temple.

So yes some may have non-military leaders, but due the nature their Race status where all Eldar are capable Warriors it's quite rare to find a leader who never took part in a battle or it's not willing to fight.

Riot may seem rare, but they may do i think there is a novel about a civil war within a single Craftworld

 Selym wrote:
And speaking of Eldar populations, would they ever have civil unrest?
Do they riot?

From everything I've read about the Eldar, their disdain for the other races of the galaxy would lead the Eldar to view something like "rioting" as being an activity for "lesser" races, and thus completely intolerable in Eldar society.

Lord Perversor wrote:
So yes some may have non-military leaders, but due the nature their Race status where all Eldar are capable Warriors it's quite rare to find a leader who never took part in a battle or it's not willing to fight.

I'm reading the three-book omnibus "Path of the Eldar", and one thing that's been made very clear early in the omnibus is that, as a rule, Eldar switch from one path to another many times in their lives. If they don't, they become enslaved to the path they're on. When they leave one path behind to begin a new one, like leaving behind the Path of the Dire Avenger to pursue the Path of the Artist, they COMPLETELY leave behind the old path. While the previous path will have affected their trajectory through life, it would be completely wrong to assume that a non-military Eldar could rely on previous Aspect experience to provide military leadership. This would be akin to saying that someone was in special forces 40 years ago, after which they became an artist. Then based on your argument, they could provide military leadership tomorrow morning. While they may know more than a non-veteran, they're in no position to provide modern military leadership. Their training is outdated, their skills have atrophied, and they have less familiarity with modern military practice. Amplify all of this, since when an Eldar changes from one path to another, the Eldar puts away their old life and begins a completely new one.

I haven't seen anything yet that suggests that non-Aspect Eldar are capable Warriors. My impression is that Eldar Guardians are basically farmers with guns... and this can actually be seen in the WH40K Game Rules and Eldar codices themselves. The only reason a player would employ Guardians, the ones you refer to as capable Warriors, would be to hold an objective that the enemy is highly unlikely to reach anyway. If an enemy unit reached the Guardians, the Guardians would get plowed under with little effort. The Guardians are employed when the gak hits the fan on the Craftworld's doorstep.

Then how come a Guardian is more disciplined than a kabalite warrior? If they were just farmers with guns why do they get the same stats as the meanest murders of the street gangs of Commarragh and are actually more proficient in war (battle focus). If anything the current guardian stats are better then they should be, a Guardian should be bs 3.

Statistic levels (specifically WS, BS, S, and T) are more categorical than definitive. A Kabalite Warrior IS a much more capable marksman and hand-to-hand fighter than a Guardian, I'd wager, even though they are both WS/BS 4.

If I recall correctly, ork boyz are only S3, the same as a typical guard trooper. But we all know that an ork is much stronger than a human being, even a guardsman.

In as much as it applies to Guardians, however, I think that Eldar Guardians are certainly capable fighters, their wealth of experiences and natural grace perhaps lending them a greater degree of skill than conscripts of non-Eldar armies. Despite having a similar skill stat block with Space Marines, I think it's reasonable to believe Astartes could outshoot or outbox the typical Guardian. Likewise, I think a typical human could overpower one in a hand-to-hand fight, looking solely on brute strength versus raw endurance, despite the two sharing similar S/T stats.

With regards to non-military leaders, the answer is almost certainly.

I think the craftworlders probably have something akin to a police force as well, although I doubt it's something perfectly analagous to our own police force. I could see their duties largely encompassing enforcing order among guests to the craftworld, monitoring those Eldar currently walking Paths which might lead them to behavior which could be harmful to themselves or others, as well as to keep an eye out for which Eldar may be straying to close to becoming lost on their Path.

gulfcoastfella wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:
So yes some may have non-military leaders, but due the nature their Race status where all Eldar are capable Warriors it's quite rare to find a leader who never took part in a battle or it's not willing to fight.

I'm reading the three-book omnibus "Path of the Eldar", and one thing that's been made very clear early in the omnibus is that, as a rule, Eldar switch from one path to another many times in their lives. If they don't, they become enslaved to the path they're on. When they leave one path behind to begin a new one, like leaving behind the Path of the Dire Avenger to pursue the Path of the Artist, they COMPLETELY leave behind the old path. While the previous path will have affected their trajectory through life, it would be completely wrong to assume that a non-military Eldar could rely on previous Aspect experience to provide military leadership. This would be akin to saying that someone was in special forces 40 years ago, after which they became an artist. Then based on your argument, they could provide military leadership tomorrow morning. While they may know more than a non-veteran, they're in no position to provide modern military leadership. Their training is outdated, their skills have atrophied, and they have less familiarity with modern military practice. Amplify all of this, since when an Eldar changes from one path to another, the Eldar puts away their old life and begins a completely new one.

I haven't seen anything yet that suggests that non-Aspect Eldar are capable Warriors. My impression is that Eldar Guardians are basically farmers with guns... and this can actually be seen in the WH40K Game Rules and Eldar codices themselves. The only reason a player would employ Guardians, the ones you refer to as capable Warriors, would be to hold an objective that the enemy is highly unlikely to reach anyway. If an enemy unit reached the Guardians, the Guardians would get plowed under with little effort. The Guardians are employed when the gak hits the fan on the Craftworld's doorstep.

Unless they choose the modify the fluff, with some of the novels there is a huge difference with leaving a path and forgotting it.

The Eldar may be now an artisan but he still retain all his experience and knowledge about how to fight properly and due their nature it takes quite a lot of centuries to be old and no longer physically fit, should that eldar be granted again a set of armor and weapons of ana spect he once walked he would be able to fight properly as the warrior he once was.

My point about non-military leaders it's simply that for the Eldar it's a blurr line, all Eldar know how to fight and are properly trained soldiers (Guardian trainning is MANDATORY for Craftworld self-defense) and due the nature of their paths and fate ruling/govern a Craftworld it's closely tied to engage in defensive/preventive actions so it's very very rare albeit not impossible to find a pure non-military leader and even then fluff suggest they always hear Farseer and Autarch opinions. (in fact before the Autarch appearance Farseers where commonly know as being the Eldar leaders of the Craftworlds in the old fluff).


The things that literally pisses me more it's the assumption guardians are farmers with guns that just proves how often people ignore the overall lore.

Human soldiers are often specialized in a small area of combat warfare ask any military soldier how many are there with experience in artillery use, tanks/combat vehicle driving being proper transport or jet pilots at once .. while the Eldar guardians must know all of those as a mandatory trainning because it's *basic* for self defense, also the codex often points that their guardians are a testament to their race skills as a properly lead Eldar force of guardians can easily overwhelm and defeat larger enemy forces of other races.

To take a real world example, in civil unrest scenarios, or when anti-government protests go out of control, it's always reported that p****d-off ex-military vets are the most dangerous people in the crowds. They could have been out of the military for decades, but they still end up being significantly more dangerous than pure civvies.

The people of the Craftworlds have no option but to be trained for warfare in the best possible degree; they're much like the TA here in Britain - always on call if something were to happen. That information will stick in an Eldar's brain in the same way riding a bike does for us, so they'll be just as good at fighting whether they're called to war months or centuries after their training. I also think civil unrest would be impossible in the Craftworlds, as it would indicate that the Eldar in it have abandoned the path, and thus are on their way to their own demise. Even if there are disputes between leaders and the people (which there most certainly are), they cannot afford to escalate it further than snide remarks toward eachother.

And I think it's justified that Guardians are WS and BS 4 - the Eldar's physiological superiority over other races in the galaxy is fortified by the fact that someone who works the crops on a Craftworld is more than a match for an elite Space Marine who has spent decades training and receiving implants in single combat. And of course they are more disciplined than Dark Eldar, for they kill and torture for fun and satisfaction, which is reflected in their precise but reckless tactics and methods of attack. If 40k had a broader BS and WS system, however, I would be in favour of putting DE Kabalites slightly above Guardians in those skills.

pm713 wrote:
Craftworlds travel through realspace almost if not entirely exclusively.

Indeed. Older fluff had some of their docks connected to the sebway allowing them to park smaller ships there in a portable harbor. Other docks held their major ships of the line.
They float in real space. There are some old pics of at least one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
Yeah, I didn't think it would fit the personality of the Eldar.

Actually it would (remember their natural state is more akin to the DE). They follow their various Paths which obviously do not permit crime.
They have to follow the path and control their emotions lest chaos come, almost like Vulcans...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Annoyance wrote:
The people of the Craftworlds have no option but to be trained for warfare in the best possible degree; they're much like the TA here in Britain - always on call if something were to happen. That information will stick in an Eldar's brain in the same way riding a bike does for us, so they'll be just as good at fighting whether they're called to war months or centuries after their training. I also think civil unrest would be impossible in the Craftworlds, as it would indicate that the Eldar in it have abandoned the path, and thus are on their way to their own demise. Even if there are disputes between leaders and the people (which there most certainly are), they cannot afford to escalate it further than snide remarks toward eachother.

And I think it's justified that Guardians are WS and BS 4 - the Eldar's physiological superiority over other races in the galaxy is fortified by the fact that someone who works the crops on a Craftworld is more than a match for an elite Space Marine who has spent decades training and receiving implants in single combat. And of course they are more disciplined than Dark Eldar, for they kill and torture for fun and satisfaction, which is reflected in their precise but reckless tactics and methods of attack. If 40k had a broader BS and WS system, however, I would be in favour of putting DE Kabalites slightly above Guardians in those skills.

Well don't forget, WS and BS incorporates technology. Their technology used to be the best in the game.

 General Annoyance wrote:

And I think it's justified that Guardians are WS and BS 4 - the Eldar's physiological superiority over other races in the galaxy is fortified by the fact that someone who works the crops on a Craftworld is more than a match for an elite Space Marine who has spent decades training and receiving implants in single combat. And of course they are more disciplined than Dark Eldar, for they kill and torture for fun and satisfaction, which is reflected in their precise but reckless tactics and methods of attack. If 40k had a broader BS and WS system, however, I would be in favour of putting DE Kabalites slightly above Guardians in those skills.

I'll disagree with you here, on most craftworlds the Guardians are civilians called into service now Ulthwe Black Guardians on the other hand is an actual army, I can see Ulthwe having WS or BS of 4, depending on what version of guardian you are, since they train and work as an army whereas the others wouldn't have quite the same level of cohesion that they do so I would feel they probably have stat of 3 instead just like an imperial guardsman.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Then how come a Guardian is more disciplined than a kabalite warrior? If they were just farmers with guns why do they get the same stats as the meanest murders of the street gangs of Commarragh and are actually more proficient in war (battle focus). If anything the current guardian stats are better then they should be, a Guardian should be bs 3.

Lots of reasons-- Cabalites are the ultimate epicurians whereas craftworlders are the ultimate stoics. That has to affect discipline strongly. Craftworlders entire life is structured around discipline, they have a more regimented life than basically anyone in the galaxy outside of Space Marines. Meanwhile Kabalites are snorting space blow and skinning slaves alive. That has an effect on discipline.

Guardians have better stats because 1, they are older (all guardians are what Kabalites would call 'trueborn'... recall 'trueborn' are an elites choice for Kabalites) and more experienced. Many of the vatborn only live a few days or weeks before dying, whereas an 800 year old guardian has probably been called to war dozens of times and may have once been an aspect warrior himself. Guardians generally have better equipment than Kabalites, due mostly to their use of wraithbone, which is unavailable to Kabalites. Finally the stat blocks take everything that is going on 'behind the scenes' into effect. Craftworld Eldar have some of the most advanced equipment that exists in their possession and they are always backed up by persistent, low level or high level psychic buffs when fighting. None of those are really true for the Dark Eldar and in fact the Kabalites are really just cannon fodder for the higher ranking coven members. Since the Kabalites can be grown cheaply in vats, there is no real impulse to preserve their lives, whereas Guardians are given every advantage they can to survive the battle. All those things play into the stat differences.

Just a few random quotes of interest from the codex that may help shed some light on the questions.

"...each Craftworld has also become a vast interstellar Fortress"

"The Eldar Craftworlds move only at sub-light speeds, for they have grown vast beyond reason..."

"Smaller spacecraft, dotted like shoaling fish around a leviathan, travel between the Craftworlds by means of the webway."

"Their temples to Khaine take the form of transparent atriums that float around the periphery of the Craftworlds like archipelagos around a vast landmass."

"Iyanden was once amongst the most populace of the Craftworlds - it's wraithbone spires and crystal domes echoed with the voices of billons of Eldar as they went about their lives..."

The Iyanden codex describes the Craftworld as having: Fortresses, Palaces, Forests, Family Estates, there is reference to a grand bridge, the dome of crystal seers and countless numbers of corridors and pathways. Also logically there would be gardens, fields and agricultural areas, even the smallest Aspect shrines are extensive structures, they have hundreds of solar sails, each has an enormous webway portal big enough for even the biggest of their ships, whilst having hundreds of smaller ones all over the Craftworld. ect.

It says that Yriel, even after having his forces mostly joined with Iyanna's faction, was still able to dispatch an Imperial Sector fleet 'with ease'. So the Eldar fleet must have been a decent size, and this is after the events of Kraken.

Also it does say in the Codex that the Eldar don't like to take Craftworlds into the webway because A, it isn't often necessary, and B, because it is a very dangerous place and would be to "...Carry a candle into a storm of darkness."


Essentially from fluff purposes and whatnot, the largest are effectively the size of planets, and smaller craftworlds probably about the size of moons. They are described as world-ships, or a vast landmass.

Also, assuming that the larger craftworld's have billons of Eldar living there, we can assume that even the smallest have easily a few hundred millions, so factoring in living space, palaces and estates, then food and agriculture, probably enormous libraries knowing the Eldar, huge aspect shrines, shrines to all of the gods, dome of crystal seers, forests and probably water environments as well, great gardens and fortresses, as well as extensive armouries, hangers, enormous ports, weapon crafting locations, vehicle crafting locations, halls of the dead, Revenant titans, wraithknights, webway gates, elaborate architecture and plus the general consensus that the Eldar seem to be living relatively comfortable lives and they are nothing like a hive city, we can assume there is substantial space for each Eldar to be comfortable. This, to me, is enough to assume that Craftworlds are pretty f-king big.

Well slap my soulstone and call me a Guardian!

This is a great news

 Silverthorne wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Then how come a Guardian is more disciplined than a kabalite warrior? If they were just farmers with guns why do they get the same stats as the meanest murders of the street gangs of Commarragh and are actually more proficient in war (battle focus). If anything the current guardian stats are better then they should be, a Guardian should be bs 3.

Lots of reasons-- Cabalites are the ultimate epicurians whereas craftworlders are the ultimate stoics. That has to affect discipline strongly. Craftworlders entire life is structured around discipline, they have a more regimented life than basically anyone in the galaxy outside of Space Marines. Meanwhile Kabalites are snorting space blow and skinning slaves alive. That has an effect on discipline.

Guardians have better stats because 1, they are older (all guardians are what Kabalites would call 'trueborn'... recall 'trueborn' are an elites choice for Kabalites) and more experienced. Many of the vatborn only live a few days or weeks before dying, whereas an 800 year old guardian has probably been called to war dozens of times and may have once been an aspect warrior himself. Guardians generally have better equipment than Kabalites, due mostly to their use of wraithbone, which is unavailable to Kabalites. Finally the stat blocks take everything that is going on 'behind the scenes' into effect. Craftworld Eldar have some of the most advanced equipment that exists in their possession and they are always backed up by persistent, low level or high level psychic buffs when fighting. None of those are really true for the Dark Eldar and in fact the Kabalites are really just cannon fodder for the higher ranking coven members. Since the Kabalites can be grown cheaply in vats, there is no real impulse to preserve their lives, whereas Guardians are given every advantage they can to survive the battle. All those things play into the stat differences.

I have read absolutely nothing to suggest that vat grown Kabalites live only a few days to weeks, in fact I'd say that was pretty damned obsured. Eldar don't have genetic memories (or eidetic for that matter, making the suggestion that Guardians can perfectly remember their training or times in the Aspect Shrines for centuries after the fact equally obsurd) which means the Kabalites need to be trained and the very nature of the Kabals means that they will make far more use of their training than any simple Guardian ever will. Whilst your general Kabalite is certainly seen as little more than cannon fodder by Dracons and Archons, they're not Imperial Guard and can't afford to throw away wave after wave of soldiers on their raids. And make no mistake, these raids aren't a bunch thugs trying to nick your stuff but well planned military operations, thast why they're so dangerous even when targets are defended by Space Marines or Aspect Warriors.

I don't think Trueborn have a direct equivelant within the Craftworlds since the societies are so different. There's nothing about their birth which makes Trueborn inherrantly better than vat grown but it doesn't take much imagination to see that their more favoured position gives them access to better equipment and training, guaranteeing that they end up being better anyway. As such the closest equivelant is the Aspect Warriors, but thats not a straight comparison either. As for their equipment there is nothing to suggest that Guardians are better equipped than Kabalites, sure the Dark Eldar don't have access to Wraithbone but so what, they are at least as technologically advanced as the Craftworlds if not more so seeing as Commoragh is a direct continuation of the old Eldar Empire.

 Imateria wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Then how come a Guardian is more disciplined than a kabalite warrior? If they were just farmers with guns why do they get the same stats as the meanest murders of the street gangs of Commarragh and are actually more proficient in war (battle focus). If anything the current guardian stats are better then they should be, a Guardian should be bs 3.

Lots of reasons-- Cabalites are the ultimate epicurians whereas craftworlders are the ultimate stoics. That has to affect discipline strongly. Craftworlders entire life is structured around discipline, they have a more regimented life than basically anyone in the galaxy outside of Space Marines. Meanwhile Kabalites are snorting space blow and skinning slaves alive. That has an effect on discipline.

Guardians have better stats because 1, they are older (all guardians are what Kabalites would call 'trueborn'... recall 'trueborn' are an elites choice for Kabalites) and more experienced. Many of the vatborn only live a few days or weeks before dying, whereas an 800 year old guardian has probably been called to war dozens of times and may have once been an aspect warrior himself. Guardians generally have better equipment than Kabalites, due mostly to their use of wraithbone, which is unavailable to Kabalites. Finally the stat blocks take everything that is going on 'behind the scenes' into effect. Craftworld Eldar have some of the most advanced equipment that exists in their possession and they are always backed up by persistent, low level or high level psychic buffs when fighting. None of those are really true for the Dark Eldar and in fact the Kabalites are really just cannon fodder for the higher ranking coven members. Since the Kabalites can be grown cheaply in vats, there is no real impulse to preserve their lives, whereas Guardians are given every advantage they can to survive the battle. All those things play into the stat differences.

I have read absolutely nothing to suggest that vat grown Kabalites live only a few days to weeks, in fact I'd say that was pretty damned obsured. Eldar don't have genetic memories (or eidetic for that matter, making the suggestion that Guardians can perfectly remember their training or times in the Aspect Shrines for centuries after the fact equally obsurd) which means the Kabalites need to be trained and the very nature of the Kabals means that they will make far more use of their training than any simple Guardian ever will. Whilst your general Kabalite is certainly seen as little more than cannon fodder by Dracons and Archons, they're not Imperial Guard and can't afford to throw away wave after wave of soldiers on their raids. And make no mistake, these raids aren't a bunch thugs trying to nick your stuff but well planned military operations, thast why they're so dangerous even when targets are defended by Space Marines or Aspect Warriors.

I don't think Trueborn have a direct equivelant within the Craftworlds since the societies are so different. There's nothing about their birth which makes Trueborn inherrantly better than vat grown but it doesn't take much imagination to see that their more favoured position gives them access to better equipment and training, guaranteeing that they end up being better anyway. As such the closest equivelant is the Aspect Warriors, but thats not a straight comparison either. As for their equipment there is nothing to suggest that Guardians are better equipped than Kabalites, sure the Dark Eldar don't have access to Wraithbone but so what, they are at least as technologically advanced as the Craftworlds if not more so seeing as Commoragh is a direct continuation of the old Eldar Empire.

You can't really say having the old Empire technology makes Dark Eldar more advanced seeing as they can't use most of it.

Please point out where it says all pre-fall tech was Wraithbone?

 Imateria wrote:
Please point out where it says all pre-fall tech was Wraithbone?

No idea if it is. But it is psychic technology as that's what the basis of all Eldar tech was. Which makes sense really.

 Imateria wrote:
Please point out where it says all pre-fall tech was Wraithbone?

Not all of their Pre-fall teach was wraithbone made , in fact most of commorragh basic supports systems are just pre-fall technology but Wraithbone become one of the most common buildings materials for eldar (just like we do with plastic mostly) before th fall due their unrivalled psy power.

I just see Dark eldar and Eldar tech parts of the same knowledge of the race. It's just Craftworlds use the Wraithbone due their advantages (can be grown with their psy focus and allow them to be independent from other planets/moons to gather amterials) while Dark eldar just resolve to use advanced tech not linked to psy use(can gather materials on their raids, avoid the use of psy powers avoiding it's danger inside the webway)

The discussion about kabalites and warriors are kinda pointless remember, tabletop stats are race overall so guardians and Kabalites perform equally capable on their actions (special rules to reflect their trainning aside) and while Kabalites fluff wise may be more experienced that guardians they behave more individualistic in the battlefield (kabalites enjoy the slaugther and the battlelust) while guardians are just a bit more organized and tactically oriented (they fight mostly for self-preservation and defense of their kin)

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
Please point out where it says all pre-fall tech was Wraithbone?

Not all of their Pre-fall teach was wraithbone made , in fact most of commorragh basic supports systems are just pre-fall technology but Wraithbone become one of the most common buildings materials for eldar (just like we do with plastic mostly) before th fall due their unrivalled psy power.

I just see Dark eldar and Eldar tech parts of the same knowledge of the race. It's just Craftworlds use the Wraithbone due their advantages (can be grown with their psy focus and allow them to be independent from other planets/moons to gather amterials) while Dark eldar just resolve to use advanced tech not linked to psy use(can gather materials on their raids, avoid the use of psy powers avoiding it's danger inside the webway)

The discussion about kabalites and warriors are kinda pointless remember, tabletop stats are race overall so guardians and Kabalites perform equally capable on their actions (special rules to reflect their trainning aside) and while Kabalites fluff wise may be more experienced that guardians they behave more individualistic in the battlefield (kabalites enjoy the slaugther and the battlelust) while guardians are just a bit more organized and tactically oriented (they fight mostly for self-preservation and defense of their kin)

This is what I was getting at, the Empire had a vast array of resources at it's disposal and Wraithbone was just one of them. Wraithbone is the materiel of choice for the Craftworlds for the reasons you've listed, it doesn't require things like processign plants or minning and allowes them to be completely self sufficent. The Dark Eldar don't care because they have an army of slaves at their disposal and will have followed a different route for resources but still using advanced tech that dates back to the Empire.

Guardians have better stats because 'game design reasons' and 'author fiat'.
From 3rd to 6th they had BS/WS3 to represent the fact they are decent soldiers, not elite badasses. The fact that their civilian reserves were the equal of the highly trained Imperial Guard is supposed to be a positive reflection on the Eldar race.

Black Guardians got BS/WS4 because their craftworld is sailing past the eye of terror and every hour is danger time. Ulthwe is constantly fighting battles such that even some of their Guardian irregulars have become as skilled as their Khaine cultist brethren.

Quite frankly, if every civilian is a crack shot stormtrooper- there are no civilians and there is no tragedy or atrocity when they get butchered by the hivefleet or SM chapter du jour.

 =Angel= wrote:
Guardians have better stats because 'game design reasons' and 'author fiat'.
From 3rd to 6th they had BS/WS3 to represent the fact they are decent soldiers, not elite badasses. The fact that their civilian reserves were the equal of the highly trained Imperial Guard is supposed to be a positive reflection on the Eldar race.

Black Guardians got BS/WS4 because their craftworld is sailing past the eye of terror and every hour is danger time. Ulthwe is constantly fighting battles such that even some of their Guardian irregulars have become as skilled as their Khaine cultist brethren.

Quite frankly, if every civilian is a crack shot stormtrooper- there are no civilians and there is no tragedy or atrocity when they get butchered by the hivefleet or SM chapter du jour.

Or they have a good deal of training they're naturally better shots considering how slowly most races seem to move to them.

Let's not forget latent psyker tendencies in all Eldar, plus likely background support from Warlocks and Farseers.

The increase in Guaridan WS and BS is a direct result of characteristic inflation.

In Warhammer and Warhammer 40K, the baseline Elf/Eldar has always been +1 WS and BS over the baseline normal human. In both original systems, baseline human militia was WS2/BS2. So Eldar militia were WS3/BS3 to show that even Eldar civilians with militia training were as good as fully trained professional Imperial Guard.

However, the problem has been that 40K is unbalanced in terms of so many people playing MEQ, with WS4/BS4, even though MEQs are supposed to be rare in the galaxy. The sheer number of MEQ out there has made WS4/BS4 the baseline instead of the original WS3/BS3, to the point where Eldar Guardians looked like subpar poorly trained cannon fodder.

I think that Iracundus has reason. The average WS and BS in the tabletop is 4 (fluff apart) so the Guardian Eldar seemed bad in comparison with most of the units played. Now they are just at the average level.


And about the fluff questions, I remember barely the Inquition war trilogy of Ian Watson. They are the oldest novels of 40k and they are non-canon and may be not a great lecture. (Plus a very very very bad translation in spanish, really, you would cry or laugh if you read how translate Banshees as fairies).

In this novels the characters enter the Black Library via Web way and spend a lot of time looking for portals. The web way is described as a galactic highway with tendrils and capilars of diverse size, some of them capable of transport a craftworld.

Exactly so. The handful of people out there using Conscripts and Renegades and Heretics are fully aware that 'untrained militia' should be BS2 - and it's a point of some quality that Eldar 'militia' are as well trained as professional human soldiers (Imperial Guard).

From Codex: Eldar 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed - "That these citizen levies are capable of engaging and defeating other races' warriors is a testament to the Eldar's skill and technology"

Now I'm pretty sure in the 6th ed Codex they go more specific and say that they can match their enemies' most elite warriors, hence BS and WS 4 in game; I don't think it mentions Space Marines specifically, but I reckon they were suggesting it. Unfortunately I don't have my Codex to hand - can anyone check this? (should be in the Guardian entry, of course)

The 6th ed text reads like this:

"It is a testament to the skill and technology of the Eldar that even their civilians are capable of engaging an enemy army and emerging victorious"

 chromedog wrote:
The 6th ed text reads like this:

"It is a testament to the skill and technology of the Eldar that even their civilians are capable of engaging an enemy army and emerging victorious"

Must be in my head then - somehow I got the idea that it mentioned elite, which I then attributed to something like Space Marines

I don't think that's an unreasonable idea though; I mean Eldar have reflexes far beyond the capability of even Space Marines, and rules like Battle Focus suggest that they are well trained and disciplined, going beyond simple Imperial Guardsman. I dunno about you lot but I think Eldar Guardians with that level of skill is much cooler.

Anyways thanks for correcting me

G.A

I'm going to ask another question, since this just came to my mind - is it possible for Craftworlds, or any Eldar ship, to enter the Webway? I don't think that it's ever been stated how big the Webway really is. Some parts might allow only a few people to travel through, others perhaps, could allow whole fleets to quickly cover vast distances. Your opinions?

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I'm going to ask another question, since this just came to my mind - is it possible for Craftworlds, or any Eldar ship, to enter the Webway? I don't think that it's ever been stated how big the Webway really is. Some parts might allow only a few people to travel through, others perhaps, could allow whole fleets to quickly cover vast distances. Your opinions?

Webway gates range from man sized portals to gates that span across entire asteroid fields, so there is the possibility for Craftworlds to travel through them. However, considering how much of the Webway is now lost, and the fact that we have determined that the Craftworlds are insanely large and thus primarily travel through realspace, this is unlikely; even if they could fit through a portal, their possible destinations would be very narrow.

Eldar Battleships such as the Void Stalker class are barely a fraction of the size of a Craftworld, so it's safe to assume the Eldar use their fleets to get around the galaxy via the Webway rather than the Craftworlds.

G.A

Wyldhunt wrote:
It's also worth noting that, in Valedor, an Iyanden representative warns a Biel-Tan representative not to let Biel-Tan herself get too close to the tyranid force as that was the mistake made by Iyanden. Indicating that craftworlds can be used aggressively (possibly to make launching and resupplying ships easier?), but that the losses suffered if the craftworld is attacked directly are considered too high to be worth the risk. Especially when you can usually just attack from transport ships or the webway.

Though for sub-lightspeed vechiles being attacking is pretty tough prospect anyway.

Speaking of which can those be spotted from far? If IoM can spot approaching craftworld even from 5LY distance they have YEARS to amass fleet in advance.