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Daston wrote:
 amanita wrote:
 Silverthorne wrote:
Bolters are a lot like the 75mm gun shooting HE on early war M4s. Against light armor, like halftracks and opels, (4+ and 5+) you're going to penetrate and detonate within, causing massive trauma and essentially instant death.

Against medium armor, like against a Panther, (3+ save here) penetration is much sketchier, although targeting weak spots can net a skoshi pen. This is difficult, considering the speed, agility, and situational awareness of most targets bearing that level of protection.

Then finally against heavy armor, like a Tiger (2+ save) the bolter is really only going to be good at announcing your presence and getting your demonically prolapsed by a traitor marine's claw hand. Bad times, man.

People knock the AP system in the game a lot, but it's actually more true to life than the old fantasy system of armor modifiers.


I think you are seriously confusing a 75mm weapon with a .75 caliber one.


Plus a Panther is much better armoured than a Tiger.

Talking of WW2. On the eastern front the German and Soviet snipers were known to use explosive rounds. The German ones were not as effective and would some times pass through before detonation. However the soviet rounds would put a fist sized hole in a torso or blow arms off. I belive a .75 caliber rocket will do a lot more than that.


Well Bolts are mix of both. The shell themselves puts a fist-sized hole in the target, but it has a minimum arming range for the explosives.

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Bolters excel particularly against two types of targets.

The first type is fragile infantry with heavy armor, such as Battle Sisters and Fire Dragons. Their armor is able to resist bolt penetration, however the sheer force of impact travels through the armour, shattering bone and rupturing organs.


The second type is resilent infantry with light armor, such as Boyz. Their inhuman toughness means the bolt impact alone won't down them - making autoweapons less than efficient - but the subsequent internal detonation scatters limbs like rice at a wedding.

What bolters struggle with is resilient infantry with heavy armor, such as 'eavy-armour Nobz or Chaos Space Marines. Not only does their armour resist penetration, their sturdiness means the flesh and bone survives the impact force as well. Against these targets, the boltgun is of dubious effectiveness, mandating the deployment of plasma or melta weapons or, if no such weapons are available, a risky charge into close combat where armour joints can be targeted with combat blades.

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@Ashiraya

An armor that wouldn't be pierced by the bolt like an Aspect Warrior armor, Incubi Warsuit or SoB Power Armor would disperse the energy of the shot so that it would be armless to the bearer. An armor that would be incapable of distributing kinetic energy in highly efficient fashion (but capable of withstanding it) would be a very poor armor. In fact it would be an armor of the worst type. It would be heavy, bulky, costly and incapable of protecting from even basic weapons. A bolt is hardly more dangerous than a grenade detonation, many alien rifle sized weapon and much less powerful than a light canon. The goal of an armor is to protect the bearer not survive a blast. Considering that carapace armor like those of Scions or Taus are strong enough to withstand bolts, it stands to reason that even better ones would do it.

I would agree with your assessment though that bolters are mostly efficient on lightly to medium armored infantrie that happen to realy tough like ork boys, nobz, tyranid monsters and other creatures like that. In fact, I would dare supose that bolters were specifically designed to kill orks.
   
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I doubt it was specifically for Orks but it would make sense that they'd be a major consideration as Orks are probably one of the more common fights for the Imperium.

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epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya

An armor that wouldn't be pierced by the bolt like an Aspect Warrior armor, Incubi Warsuit or SoB Power Armor would disperse the energy of the shot so that it would be armless to the bearer. An armor that would be incapable of distributing kinetic energy in highly efficient fashion (but capable of withstanding it) would be a very poor armor.


Not at all. You can compare it to a blow from a warhammer, as opposed to an arrow from a bow. It may not actually pierce the armour, but that does not mean that the one inside goes unscathed.

Bolters have massive kinetic impact due to the combination of a conventional explosion propellant and the micro-rocket accelerator, giving them raw impact force beyond most weapons of the same class.

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@Ashiraya

You have have scewed perception as to how a bludgening close combat weapon like a mace is supposed to work. No, a hit from a mace like weapon on a solid plate of armor is incredibly useless. You might make your opponent stumble or fall on the ground, but you won't hurt him/her. On a soft armor like flak armor or chainmail which are very resistent to piercing or slashing damage, bludgening weapons are extremely efficient. The reason why you won't hurt him is that when you hit a rigid plate with an impact the plate redistribute automatically the energy from the point of impact to the entire plate. This redistribution of energy prevent localised damage and is further reduced by another feature of all rigid armor plate, the serl or undercoat.

The undercoat of an armor is composed of supple armor, usualy soft lether, heavy tissue, latex fibers or other polymer of that sort. This prevent the plate from redistributing kinetic energy from an impact on the body of the person who wears the armor, but on a surface specifically designed to absorb it. All rigid armor plate system requires a undercoat specifically to avoid having you reduce in juice, but your armor intact. It's a known problem and you want to avoid it. Since impact of the strength of a bolt (or higher) are relatively common on a 40K battlefield, it stand to reason that high hand armor design for elite shock troopers would have been designed specifically to protect you from them. Eldar armor being reactive have a built in undercoat. SoB all require an undercoat if only to interact with their power armor system. Scions have a flak armor beneath their carapace armor. In fact, the only troops with rigid plate armor who don't have an undercoat are Space Marine since the black carapace is a sort of biological undercoat in on itself (and they can't have another since they are directly connected to their armor).

Considering than a bolt as hardly more kinetic charge than a big shoota who fires absurdly large ammunitions at fast rate, thinking that carapace armor or power armor design for human or human like bearer don't possess a high quality undercoat armor, a plate system that redistrubute kinetic energy in a higly efficient manner would be absurd and make the manufacturing of power armor or carapace armor pointless for human.

PS: All mace weapon designed to deal with heavy plates have a jagged design and a spike to pierce plates, thus preventing the impact from bouncing off the armor and being redistributed armlessly, rip through the undercoat and wound the victim. No, a real warhammer doesn't look at all like the sigil of games-workshop. Bludgening blows were used to make the victim fall on the ground where the spike was then used to pierce plates. If soft armor is excellent to protect against piercing and slashing damage, plates were excellent against bludgening and slashing damage.
   
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tneva82 wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Though, quite frankly, if Orks can get detonated by a single bolter shell, then Marines can as well. It's just less likely to be explosively spectacular because of armor. More likely they just get liquefied inside of their power armor by it.


Orks are unarmoured. Marines who are naked just as tough if not tad tougher also have armour that's itself for example pretty much impervious to lasgun level caliber.

Bolter can kill marine but by no mean easy task.
Actually, I think that biologically, Orks are tougher, and barring a headshot, more likely to survive a bolter round getting through their armor than a Marine would. I don't know why you think that I am ignoring the existence of armor, though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/24 18:39:20


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an ork might even survive the loss of a limb(or cut-off heads in some cases).
if the injury is not really incapacitating, theres a good chance they will ignore it and keep on fighting.
and then they go to see the dok.
anyway
a (real) arrow can not reliably pierce plate armour, and a (real) warhammer is not blunt, but spiked.(as epronovost
stated)
the historic knights were one man armies, and you would either need: a) your own knights or b) to overwhelm them with manpower/ambush tactics etc.

i think the same goes for marines.
a lucky/well aimed shot can kill a marine, but its not very likely.
boltguns still kill xenos very good, and also, compare them to lasguns(the imperial standart weapon), and you have the context
   
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epronovost wrote:
On a soft armor like flak armor or chainmail which are very resistent to piercing or slashing damage, bludgening weapons are extremely efficient.


Flak armour is soft now?

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Krieg! What a hole...

Depends on the pattern I guess, the Krieg coats can be as rigid as the Cadian flak armor. Either way, bolts go through boh armor and explode in the guardsmen, so its rigidity does little

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I've never really understood chain swords. It seems so impractical, if you hit your enemy with it, it gets stuck and you have to drive it through the limb/torso/tentacle to completion, or you've lost it.

It would leave you wide open for a counter attack while you either struggle to complete the dismemberment, or struggle to pull the sword out the wound you just made.

Also, swords aren't really used like you'd have to use a chain sword. They're for stabbing and slicing, not for slow driven movements. That's more akin to an axe.


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 Griddlelol wrote:
I've never really understood chain swords. It seems so impractical, if you hit your enemy with it, it gets stuck and you have to drive it through the limb/torso/tentacle to completion, or you've lost it.

It would leave you wide open for a counter attack while you either struggle to complete the dismemberment, or struggle to pull the sword out the wound you just made.

Also, swords aren't really used like you'd have to use a chain sword. They're for stabbing and slicing, not for slow driven movements. That's more akin to an axe.


Well the GC era did favour chainswords more than axes, but swords are more symbolic and likely easier to produce so as the religiousness progressed and technology regressed...

Also, those wielding chainswords would be space marines who have the strength to handle the demands of the chain, the durability to weather a counterattack, plus its hard to fight back with a chainsword in your ribcage. In some cases the follow through is also necessary, remembering that GC was mostly versus Orks.

On top of that, the Space Marine video game offers the most intricate, "working" example of weapons including the chainsword, where the chain seems to spin fast enough to function almost as a solid blade to cut with, while against harder targets, it can be held to create greater rends (see Executions vs Nobz and CSM).

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 Deadshot wrote:
On top of that, the Space Marine video game offers the most intricate, "working" example of weapons including the chainsword, where the chain seems to spin fast enough to function almost as a solid blade to cut with, while against harder targets, it can be held to create greater rends (see Executions vs Nobz and CSM).


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epronovost wrote:
@Ashiraya

You have have scewed perception as to how a bludgening close combat weapon like a mace is supposed to work. No, a hit from a mace like weapon on a solid plate of armor is incredibly useless. You might make your opponent stumble or fall on the ground, but you won't hurt him/her. On a soft armor like flak armor or chainmail which are very resistent to piercing or slashing damage, bludgening weapons are extremely efficient. The reason why you won't hurt him is that when you hit a rigid plate with an impact the plate redistribute automatically the energy from the point of impact to the entire plate. This redistribution of energy prevent localised damage and is further reduced by another feature of all rigid armor plate, the serl or undercoat.

The undercoat of an armor is composed of supple armor, usualy soft lether, heavy tissue, latex fibers or other polymer of that sort. This prevent the plate from redistributing kinetic energy from an impact on the body of the person who wears the armor, but on a surface specifically designed to absorb it. All rigid armor plate system requires a undercoat specifically to avoid having you reduce in juice, but your armor intact. It's a known problem and you want to avoid it. Since impact of the strength of a bolt (or higher) are relatively common on a 40K battlefield, it stand to reason that high hand armor design for elite shock troopers would have been designed specifically to protect you from them. Eldar armor being reactive have a built in undercoat. SoB all require an undercoat if only to interact with their power armor system. Scions have a flak armor beneath their carapace armor. In fact, the only troops with rigid plate armor who don't have an undercoat are Space Marine since the black carapace is a sort of biological undercoat in on itself (and they can't have another since they are directly connected to their armor).

Considering than a bolt as hardly more kinetic charge than a big shoota who fires absurdly large ammunitions at fast rate, thinking that carapace armor or power armor design for human or human like bearer don't possess a high quality undercoat armor, a plate system that redistrubute kinetic energy in a higly efficient manner would be absurd and make the manufacturing of power armor or carapace armor pointless for human.

PS: All mace weapon designed to deal with heavy plates have a jagged design and a spike to pierce plates, thus preventing the impact from bouncing off the armor and being redistributed armlessly, rip through the undercoat and wound the victim. No, a real warhammer doesn't look at all like the sigil of games-workshop. Bludgening blows were used to make the victim fall on the ground where the spike was then used to pierce plates. If soft armor is excellent to protect against piercing and slashing damage, plates were excellent against bludgening and slashing damage.


This is true up to a point but eventually the force of impact will exceed the armor's ability to absorb it safely. Bolter weapons are incredibly strong firearms moreso than their table top stats would suggest. Humans are just too squishy to take direct hits reliably without wearing something heavier than power armor.

I would hazard to guess that this is why the larger Imperium never took steps to equip their regular human infantry in power armor en masse.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/24 23:39:55


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 TheCustomLime wrote:

I would hazard to guess that this is why the larger Imperium never took steps to equip their regular human infantry in power armor en masse.
I would have put it down to an intergration cost issue - power armour in the IOM relies on neural or nervous interfaces to work properly. Space Marines use the Black Carapace to have a nervous link to their armour, effectivley becoming it, and Inquisitors use neural interfaces. The technology is probably too complex and expensive to just dish out willy-nilly.

If the IOM had that amount of funding, guardsmen would not be using fancy strobe lights as a primary armament.
   
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 Selym wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:

I would hazard to guess that this is why the larger Imperium never took steps to equip their regular human infantry in power armor en masse.
I would have put it down to an intergration cost issue - power armour in the IOM relies on neural or nervous interfaces to work properly. Space Marines use the Black Carapace to have a nervous link to their armour, effectivley becoming it, and Inquisitors use neural interfaces. The technology is probably too complex and expensive to just dish out willy-nilly.

If the IOM had that amount of funding, guardsmen would not be using fancy strobe lights as a primary armament.


Well, I'm more talking about the early Imperium. If the Emperor really wanted to he probably could've started making power armor in huge quantities rather than the Legiones Astartes. He could've developed an easier neural link for the Imperial Army. But he understood that mankind is simply outclassed by the many horrors of the galaxy and thus such a huge resource investment would be pointless.

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Daston wrote:
 amanita wrote:
 Silverthorne wrote:
Bolters are a lot like the 75mm gun shooting HE on early war M4s. Against light armor, like halftracks and opels, (4+ and 5+) you're going to penetrate and detonate within, causing massive trauma and essentially instant death.

Against medium armor, like against a PzIV , (3+ save here) penetration is much sketchier, although targeting weak spots can net a skoshi pen. This is difficult, considering the speed, agility, and situational awareness of most targets bearing that level of protection.

Then finally against heavy armor, like aPanther (2+ save) the bolter is really only going to be good at announcing your presence and getting your demonically prolapsed by a traitor marine's claw hand. Bad times, man.

People knock the AP system in the game a lot, but it's actually more true to life than the old fantasy system of armor modifiers.


I think you are seriously confusing a 75mm weapon with a .75 caliber one.


Plus a Panther is much better armoured than a Tiger. Frontally, the side and rear armor was less, including the turret. Not the mention the sloping on the Panthers armor was only useful against non-HEAT or HESH ammo

Talking of WW2. On the eastern front the German and Soviet snipers were known to use explosive rounds. The German ones were not as effective and would some times pass through before detonation. However the soviet rounds would put a fist sized hole in a torso or blow arms off. I belive a .75 caliber rocket will do a lot more than that Like the panzerfäuste.

Fixed this for you.

As for Boltguns vs power armor, imagine the old style RPG-7 back in Vietnam. The NVA would ambush US Marines convoys and use the rpg-7 on there tanks and trucks. The Marines used the M48 Patton, which was very lightly armored (For a MBT) The RPG-7 had a hard time penetrating the tanks armor. It was common for a M48 to take anywhere from 6-15 RPG-7 hits before being disabled. So in essences, a lucky shot is needed, or a better round.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Selym wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:

I would hazard to guess that this is why the larger Imperium never took steps to equip their regular human infantry in power armor en masse.
I would have put it down to an intergration cost issue - power armour in the IOM relies on neural or nervous interfaces to work properly. Space Marines use the Black Carapace to have a nervous link to their armour, effectivley becoming it, and Inquisitors use neural interfaces. The technology is probably too complex and expensive to just dish out willy-nilly.

If the IOM had that amount of funding, guardsmen would not be using fancy strobe lights as a primary armament.


Well, I'm more talking about the early Imperium. If the Emperor really wanted to he probably could've started making power armor in huge quantities rather than the Legiones Astartes. He could've developed an easier neural link for the Imperial Army. But he understood that mankind is simply outclassed by the many horrors of the galaxy and thus such a huge resource investment would be pointless.


Indeed.

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 TheCustomLime wrote:


This is true up to a point but eventually the force of impact will exceed the armor's ability to absorb it safely. Bolter weapons are incredibly strong firearms moreso than their table top stats would suggest. Humans are just too squishy to take direct hits reliably without wearing something heavier than power armor.

I would hazard to guess that this is why the larger Imperium never took steps to equip their regular human infantry in power armor en masse.


Of course any armor as its typing point. A carapce armor offers no protection against a light canon like a multilaser if only because of the strength of the impact. A power armor would be better, but still would not offer great protection to the person underneath. Ballistic impact are deadly because, not because of their kinetic charge, but because of their capacity to pierce armor or bend it. Producing an armor whose quality is render completly useless by the lack of quality of its undercoat, especially if they can't protect from a weapon as common as a bolter, heavy stubbers, big shoota or heavy bolters, all very common anti-infantrie weapons available in large quantity by even the most basic Imperial forces, is of such stupidity that even the Imperium wouldn't care for it. They would certainly avoid furnishing those armors to their very best human soldiers. They would favor stealth equipment for those soldiers instead since it would increase their survivability much more than a 250 kilo power armor that offers no better protection than flak against a basic anti-infantrie weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/25 03:20:43


 
   
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Krieg! What a hole...

The bolter explosion is also rather small, I know 40mm genades have a rather small lethal radius, a bolt round even less as it is half the size now give the target fully enclose carapace or power armor and unless the shell punches throught the person inside is going to have a very unpleasant, but not lethal, day.

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epronovost wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:


This is true up to a point but eventually the force of impact will exceed the armor's ability to absorb it safely. Bolter weapons are incredibly strong firearms moreso than their table top stats would suggest. Humans are just too squishy to take direct hits reliably without wearing something heavier than power armor.

I would hazard to guess that this is why the larger Imperium never took steps to equip their regular human infantry in power armor en masse.


Of course any armor as its typing point. A carapce armor offers no protection against a light canon like a multilaser if only because of the strength of the impact. A power armor would be better, but still would not offer great protection to the person underneath. Ballistic impact are deadly because, not because of their kinetic charge, but because of their capacity to pierce armor or bend it. Producing an armor whose quality is render completly useless by the lack of quality of its undercoat, especially if they can't protect from a weapon as common as a bolter, heavy stubbers, big shoota or heavy bolters, all very common anti-infantrie weapons available in large quantity by even the most basic Imperial forces, is of such stupidity that even the Imperium wouldn't care for it. They would certainly avoid furnishing those armors to their very best human soldiers. They would favor stealth equipment for those soldiers instead since it would increase their survivability much more than a 250 kilo power armor that offers no better protection than flak against a basic anti-infantrie weapon.


Well, you are thinking in the mindset of the 40k TT where Space Marines are the bread and butter infantry units. Bolters are not a very common weapon at all in the galaxy. Even so, it would be very rare for any Imperial forces to face them. Most Imperial forces are deployed against rebels and renegades which field weapons like Autoguns which Carapace is very adequate at stopping. An Imperial infantryman fighting an Astartes of any sort is a very, very, very rare occurrence in the wider galaxy.

You also have to remember that it is not just power armor that gives an Astartes his durability. His body is incredibly resilient which, combined with his power armor, give him the ability to shrug off regular Bolt Rounds. Regular humans just don't have the durability to resist the shock. That's why the Imperium doesn't bother issuing regular infantry more advanced armor. It'd be wasted on them.

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 Melissia wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Though, quite frankly, if Orks can get detonated by a single bolter shell, then Marines can as well. It's just less likely to be explosively spectacular because of armor. More likely they just get liquefied inside of their power armor by it.


Orks are unarmoured. Marines who are naked just as tough if not tad tougher also have armour that's itself for example pretty much impervious to lasgun level caliber.

Bolter can kill marine but by no mean easy task.
Actually, I think that biologically, Orks are tougher, and barring a headshot, more likely to survive a bolter round getting through their armor than a Marine would. I don't know why you think that I am ignoring the existence of armor, though.


Marines wouldn't be detonated by single bolter shell. That's why.

Killing marine with bolter requires either very lucky hit or series of hits. Single shell ain't detonating marine.

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Flak armour may as well be confetti.
Against bolter rounds, definitely.

It's actually pretty bloody good armour compared to today's stuff - but it's designed to stop blades, slugga rounds, autogun shells, lasbolts, frag grenades, exploding vehicles and heavy stubber shots - i.e. the things that 90% of Imperial guardsmen in the Imperium (not the poor sods facing Abaddon, Riptides and Yet-another-white-scars battle company day after day on the tabletop) actually have to deal with....

And, as noted, it's pretty damn good. Having a 1/3 chance of taking what's effectively a 50 cal machinegun round and keeping right on fighting is only possible with bloody good protection!

Flak armour is soft now?

Depends on the pattern I guess, the Krieg coats can be as rigid as the Cadian flak armor. Either way, bolts go through boh armor and explode in the guardsmen, so its rigidity does little

There is such a thing as a flak greatcoat - that's what commissars wear over their dress uniform, and as noted I assume the krieg outfit is the same stuff. It's supposed to stiffen under impact to spread out the blow (according to old rogue trader background), although there are a few small pieces of permenantly rigid carapace plate (helmet and breastplate, for example)

Marines wouldn't be detonated by single bolter shell. That's why
Indeed. Remember that in addition to magically better muscles, astartes bone is supposed to be massively denser. So whilst a bolt shell might well wreck the muscle group, it might well not break the bone itself (so you'd be left with an astartes with one limb useless rather than just blown to dogmeat).

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 TheCustomLime wrote:


Well, you are thinking in the mindset of the 40k TT where Space Marines are the bread and butter infantry units. Bolters are not a very common weapon at all in the galaxy. Even so, it would be very rare for any Imperial forces to face them. Most Imperial forces are deployed against rebels and renegades which field weapons like Autoguns which Carapace is very adequate at stopping. An Imperial infantryman fighting an Astartes of any sort is a very, very, very rare occurrence in the wider galaxy.

You also have to remember that it is not just power armor that gives an Astartes his durability. His body is incredibly resilient which, combined with his power armor, give him the ability to shrug off regular Bolt Rounds. Regular humans just don't have the durability to resist the shock. That's why the Imperium doesn't bother issuing regular infantry more advanced armor. It'd be wasted on them.


No, I don't think bolters are rare if only because storm bolters are common pintle mounted weapons on every single tank pattern the Imperium produce (so are heavy stubber, who have similar kinetic charge). Heavy bolters are the standard anti infantrie heavy machingun. A standard full strength Imperial Guard platoon might have up to a dozen of these to mow down its ennemies and that's not counting the officiers sidearms which are frequently bolt weapons. Grenades, a standard peice of equipment, are explosive devices more powerful than a bolt. We could even argue on the kinetic strength of a standard ork shoota. These weapons are massive and fire an obsenely large caliber at frightening rate, if only with very little precision. In fact, unless you face a dirt poor militia, you can bet to face an ennemy who can readily bring down on you a weapon with a kinetic charge very comparable to that of a boltgun. A guardsmen, Scion, Skitarii or Sister fighting an ennemy capable of deploying en masse weapons with a kinetic charge comparable to boltgun is pretty common, especially for the last three.

When it comes to resistence to kinetic impact, Space Marines need to be incredibly tough because, as mention earlier, they don't have an undercoat built-in their power armor. They are directly connected to their armor. It's litteraly grafted temporarly to their skin and nerves like a second skin. This gives them great mobility in their armor and the ability to sense their environment, but also mean that any impact on the armor is redistributed to the bearer because the armor is grafted on them. That's why Space Marine have a fused rib cage and a rhino-like skin. Both of these characteristic are pointless if you wear a suit of power armor whose defensive capacity will make a mockery of such genetic characteristics. Any weapon capable of damaging the power armor reliably, like a plasma or melta weapon, would vaporise bones and flesh without even noticing it. Even a simple mono-edge blade can scar plasteel and cut through flesh easily. The only reason Space Marine have such characteristic is precisely because they need to operate with armors without undercoat. Every body else who uses power armors or any other armor with similar level of protection will have the intelligence of wearing an undercoat, but will never have all the grace and functionnality of a Space Marine in a power armor because of it. The biggest advantage of Space Marine in term of survivability isn't linked to their armor at all, but what happens when it fails them. They can operate without a hitch with injuries that would incapacitate humans or maybe even kill them and survive to wound that would cripple or kill any human being. The synergy between the Space Marine body and its armor doesn't increase its defensive capacity, it improves its mobility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/25 13:18:54


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Canon is fanfic that GW was foolish enough to pay an author to write.

The Canon/Background IS 40k.
Rules are homebrew that GW was foolish enough to pay an author to write.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:


No, I don't think bolters are rare if only because storm bolters are common pintle mounted weapons on every single tank pattern the Imperium produce (so are heavy stubber, who have similar kinetic charge). Heavy bolters are the standard anti infantrie heavy machingun. A standard full strength Imperial Guard platoon might have up to a dozen of these to mow down its ennemies and that's not counting the officiers sidearms which are frequently bolt weapons.


And they apparently mount stormbolters on shipping containers.

Be that as it may, bolters are rare in the fluff. Not as rare as plasmaguns though- and a platoon can have two plasmaweapons per squad, three if there's a commissar attached.
You need to separate the army lists from the background- the army lists just let you know everything you could possibly bring to the table.

Most platoons will have grenade and missile launcher/autocannon support weapons- if they have support weapons. Exceptionally well connected/supplied regiments can field plasmaguns. Bolters fall somewhere in between. A lot of regiments have to make do with heavy stubbers instead of storm bolters. Don't be fooled by the stats/ingame effect, a bolter is a far superior weapon.

The main issue with boltweapons is that they consume ammo, and the ammo they consume is heavy and precious. Lasguns, multilasers and lascannons use rechargable powerpacks, reducing the logistic load on a fighting force, especially among infantry.

Tanks already require shells, a few boxes of bolter shells won't make much of a difference there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/26 11:53:53


 
   
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 =Angel= wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Canon is fanfic that GW was foolish enough to pay an author to write.

The Canon/Background IS 40k.
Rules are homebrew that GW was foolish enough to pay an author to write.
.
This way lies thread derailment. Martel does not believe in the 40k fluff.

Which makes me wonder why he plays 40k at all, when the rules are so bad.
   
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Bolt rounds are basically smaller grenadelauncher rounds with a HE charge, but with higher kinetic energy. This enabled them to penetrate harder targets and also makes the shot arc less (important for ease of use and hitting moving targets).

The Explosive charge inside a boltround is propably quite small - if an explosive round explodes inside the target you need very little to achieve catastrophic results (as proven by WW2 7.62mm explosive rounds https://www.full30.com/video/82efb579fd3c93d177205966ef3d3c9d )


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Dayum. And 0.75 is a fair bit bigger than 7.62mm.

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Of course, .75 does not make a lot of sense either, when you actually look at the proportions.

And it just gets worse if you pick anything else than the absolutely most conservative 7'.

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