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Hi 40k players. I'm interested in getting into the game and have been reading a great deal online to help get my bearings, since the last time I was around 40k was back in 3rd edition. Everyone seems to recommend this forum so I wanted to ask for some advice, since sometimes reading things online you get the impression that every army has been nerfed into oblivion and we're all going to be sucked into the warp at any moment.

1. Is this a good time to start 40k? I've read that 7th edition has some bad imbalances and stumbling blocks, and being so new I have no idea how far off the next edition really is or how 'bad' this one is. I don't actually mind waiting a bit because I'm getting involved in other games as well, but I'm curious.

2. I'm trying to narrow down which army I want to play. So far the Mechanicus/Skitarii, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Dark Eldar most appeal to me based on models and background material. I was just wondering if any of these are recommended for a beginner. Every time I read about Dark Eldar people imply they're horribly difficult to play and making one mistake will cause my models to shatter into shards of plastic which catch fire etc. I'll ultimately go with whatever appeals to my particular whims, but I at least want to know what I'm getting into.

3. I've read about formations and understand the general concept of detachments and unbound armies. If I at some point get into playing full-on tournaments, do they generally have rules about how many detachments you can bring in a single army?

4. I have also read about some very powerful mega-detachments that have potent bonuses for following their rules (Decurian-style is the term I've read most, I'm guessing the Necron Decurion was the first such formation?). It's usually also implied these things are tailored for sweeping tournaments and will make friendly games a nightmare for your opponent. This is subjective, of course, but is it possible to use a Craftworld Warhost or AdMech War Convocation that is reasonable for casual play and actually fun to play against?

5. How important is Objective Secured? As far as I can tell it's limited to the troops in a Combined Arms Detachment, and most armies have special formations and detachments that do not get it. Is the rule a big deal? Should I make an army that uses it before I try more exotic things?

I appreciate any advice. I know some of these are vague and open to opinion, but I thought it better to ask directly.

1. It's as good a time as any, honestly. Yes, 7th is unbalanced and some rules are poorly written, but it's not like 8th is going to be better. If you want to do it, do it as it is now so you benefit from established wisdom pertaining to this edition.

2. Mechanicus is awesome. That being said, yes, Dark Eldar are horrificially difficult to play, and get turned into goo by anything with a gun on it, but are very rewarding.

3. I believe there's generally a 3-source limit, although I don't really know.

4. MFD, Multiple Formation Detachment. Some are better than others. War Convocation and the Eldar one are brutal, but can be workable if you take weaker options. More powerful Eldar lists in general are not good for casual play.

5. Always start with a CAD and then branch out into formations, MFDs, unique detachments, etcetera. CADs are easy to learn and will get you started.

Furnace Keeper wrote:1. Is this a good time to start 40k? I've read that 7th edition has some bad imbalances and stumbling blocks, and being so new I have no idea how far off the next edition really is or how 'bad' this one is. I don't actually mind waiting a bit because I'm getting involved in other games as well, but I'm curious.

That depends. Do you really want to flush your cash down the toilet on giant plastic robots? If the answer to this is "no," do you have a problem with losing most of your games?

If the answer to the first question is "no" and the answer to the second question is "yes," then now is a TERRIBLE time to play 40k.

2. I'm trying to narrow down which army I want to play. So far the Mechanicus/Skitarii, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Dark Eldar most appeal to me based on models and background material.

Here is what's going to happen if you play Eldar:

People like me will openly shun and speak ill of you, and not only that, but actively avoid games with you.

Here's what will happen with imperial guard and Dark Eldar: You will lose. Over and over again. With absolutely no hope of winning. You will get crushed on a regular basis by competitive Eldar and Space Marine players.

If you play Mechanicus and Skitari, you may or may not win, but you very well might be disliked by a substantial minority of the player base because you play something with strange and unfamiliar rules which may or may not be well balanced in comparison to the rest of the game.

I was just wondering if any of these are recommended for a beginner.

This goes back to the question of whether you're willing to flush money down the toilet. Buy enough giant robots in the Eldar codex (along with a select few other models), and you'll win every time, even if you only have a 3rd grade reading comprehension and absolutely no tactical skill.

Do you only have a 1st grade education and the mind of a 5 year old? No problem! Fork out the cash, and you'll win every time.

This is subjective, of course, but is it possible to use a Craftworld Warhost or AdMech War Convocation that is reasonable for casual play and actually fun to play against?

No.

Warhammer 40k, especially if you either play as or against the Eldar, is a horrible, frustrating, painful experience which will cause you to curse the day you've ever even heard of this hobby (as well as the day of your birth)...on a regular basis. The sheer sight of your wraithknight will cause you to die a little on the inside every time you see it.

5. How important is Objective Secured? As far as I can tell it's limited to the troops in a Combined Arms Detachment, and most armies have special formations and detachments that do not get it. Is the rule a big deal? Should I make an army that uses it before I try more exotic things?

If you play Eldar, it won't even come up. Expect tablings on the part of your opponent. Constantly.

And then people will just stop playing you.

As far as the army, if you don't play the cheesy way, IG and Dark Eldars are unforgiving but entairnting armies.

Dark Eldars are fragile but highly mobile and overequipped. You have to get them a transport per squad and make the best use of covers because you're both outnumbered and cardboard built. If you manage to play it well, it's actually rewerding. But the least errors is paid back twice...

The imperial guards makes use of combined big tanks and infantry but they have to constantly support and look after one another: tanks can get quickly overrun or deep striked while the poor bloody infantry is likely to get slauhtered without heavy guns even if they can rely on outnumbering the foe.. This army requires a lot of minis and isn't really cheap unless like i did you look into second hand market (70% of my army atm).

Those armies are going to get you crushed if you play against competitve players, but in casual games with fair poeple you'll have great times.

Though, it's the worst moment to get started and I'd heartly recommend you to stare at ancient edition, at least V6 but the furthest the best.

Please ignore Traditio's "advice". He has a bizarre vendetta against all Tau and Eldar players and believes that anyone who doesn't play an army exactly like his is a WAAC TFG. In the real world playing Eldar is just fine. If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.

Lessee, there are several points to address. I'll try to give my opinion on all of them.

1) Starting the Game

Well, this question is something of a sliding scale with one extreme being 'How costly is it to get in?' and the other being 'How good are the rules?'

Cost-wise, this seems to be one of the better times to get in. When you're just starting out (and, preferably, playing with other newbies or people who actually know how to be sporting when playing newbies) the Start Collecting boxes are superb ways to start a force and get even more cost-effective when you add in online discounts--$60-70 for, say the Skitarii box gets you a squad of troops and a priest for no more that just $4 more than the Dunecrawler that comes with it itself! All the Start Collecting boxes are playable right out of the box with the included formation-sheet in case the boxes' contents can't fill a minimum force org requirement (though you still need the codex for rules). GW seems to finally be backpedaling its 'no discount on bundles' shtick that it was pushing all through 6th (though, there still are some bundles that save you $0) and the various board games they're releasing using 40k minis also sometimes end up being great savings. If you don't mind the heresy-era armour look, for instance, then Betrayal at Calth gets you over $200 worth of Marines for $150 (before discounts) and could be a very nice way to quickly start a sizeable marine army or to get the bodies you need for a Decurion.

On the other hand, the rules imbalances are really glaring. 40k has a history of imbalance, but 7th seems particularly nuts. Back when I started playing with IG in 5th I crammed together a list purely of stuff that I liked and still won most of the games among the group I started the game with--the book was just that strong, and the power gap that wide. It's even worse now, to the point where 5th seems extremely balanced. The favourite example is Eldar, which can make extremely good armies with most of the units in it, and when a concerted effort is made to make the most-powerful-as-possible army it's almost impossible for some books to cope. And then you have armies like IG which, in a painful flip of the table since 5th, rely on a unit type (vehicles) which is severely hampered in the current edition, or Chaos Space Marines who have such glaringly bad internal balance that pretty much the only way to stand up to any competitive list is by spamming the tiny selection of units which are much better than the rest.

And then there's the majority of armies which run the gamut of 'meh,' 'decent,' 'good,' etc. when viewed through the lens of the force-org chart, but then certain armies among them can build non-force org formations with rules that drastically increase their power level ('Decurion-style' formations, like the Necrons or Space Marines).

If you're starting with fellow newbies who don't know what you're doing, or entering a really un-competitive environment, I'd say it's still a great time to start your army. The models aren't likely to get invalidated any time soon.

2) (Normal) Eldar are probably the no-brainer newbie army because they're very forgiving and have a lot of variety in the units they can take--infantry, bikes, light skimmers, hovertanks, jump guys, monsters, and, hell, even static artillery! However, they are so disgustingly strong that, as I'm sure you've noticed, there's a stigma attached to playing Eldar. My sub-par wraith army went from 'fluffy, but bad,' in 5th (when, admittedly, it was still half-comprised of press-ganged Deathwing terminators), to 'really good' in 6th, to 'OH DEAR LORD, WHAT HAVE I DONE!?' now in 7th. I'm lucky that I have the means to have multiple armies (One of my dear friends is a guy who could only afford one army, picking Eldar back when they weren't even that good, and by the time his collection was complete he went from being viewed as a neat guy with a fluffy army to 'GAH! TFG!' just because of the power creep over the editions) and I've since shelved Eldar for now, barring gimmick-ridden narrative games.

Imperial Guard are in a weird place where they're stupid simple: advance 6" if necessary, then shoot, then repeat. Their infantry shoot. Their vehicles shoot. Their special powers (orders) make you shoot more. I still find in my fairly casual local meta that IG is forgiving, simply because you usually have multiples of your units and you can afford to lose a few. And (again, casual meta when there's not a tourney going on) where I play several AV 14 tanks still gives people more trouble than I actually intended to give them. When min-maxed lists are being fielded, though, IG comes up very short--especially if you happen to hate the way Wyverns look and refuse to field them in favour of an unnecessary amount of Leman Russ tanks (like me).

Dark Eldar keep having pretty much all their non-venom builds nerfed and your models literally burst into flame and melt on the table the moment you do something wrong. However, my understanding (I haven't played them at all in 7th) is that poison-spamming Venom swarms are still really good. So the army can do really well, it's just limited to one build competitively, which sucks if you like Raiders better.

Skitarii are really neat and have some great equipment which helps them compete with the more powerful books. Thanks to things like Arc Rifles (quickly strip down enemy vehicles) and Plasma Culverins (3-shot, armour-ignoring goodness) on its basic troops (and army-wide Scout!) makes it one of the few armies whose troops aren't just considered a 'force org' or 'formation' tax and are worth taking in more than the minimum amount. Dunecrawlers are also beastly tanks, I find.

3) It varies by tournament. Around here it's usually something to the effect of 'only formations from your main faction,' sometimes making an exception for an allied faction.

4) I've never fielded or seen a Warhost or a full Convocation, so I can't say. I'd imagine it depends on the army facing it. Some armies, even casual ones, might do really well against it if it's a) not a completely min-maxed formation, and/or b) if the book fighting the formation is super strong on its own, anyways (like Eldar).

5) It varies between armies (and missions), but I'd say Objective Secured is not terribly important for most armies. A lot of games are decided when one force is blown off the table (even in relatively close casual games, it still seems to end with one force in pieces and the others able to claim an objective unmolested). It usually only comes into play when one army with OS can suddenly dump a troop on an objective next to a non-OS enemy unit and then the game ends. And in my experience it's very rare for two opposing units to be able to sit next to each other without one getting pulverised--so you're really relying on the game to end. Some armies do this, like MSU Gladius where the board is swarming with 5-man Tactical Marine squads in their Razorbacks. It's hard to kill all the lil' fethers and then when the game-end rolls start happening they zoom up to objectives and secure 'em. Eldar, whose absurdly killy unit is also their super fast, OS unit (jetbikes) can also do this, although OS is almost incidental when compared to the amount of S6 shots they can pump into a unit camping an objective.


...Whew! I hope that covers it. Ultimately, get into the game if your desire to do so is stronger than your desire to put disposable income elsewhere and use the army you like most (even Eldar), since everything goes through its OP phases.

Yea ignore Traditio haha. Very salty player.

AdMech/eldar are the better choices in that they give you options. Want to play super competitively? War convocation/ wraith knight & scatter bike spam. Want to have a casual game with your mate on a Friday night? Run the weaker parts of your army/try new things. You will be fighting an uphill battle every battle to even draw with IG/DE, it won't be as fun.

If you do play pick up games you might find some people won't want to play eldar, usually people who have to win all the time and don't want to try new things/are trapped in a very negative thought process.

Play what you want to play. Your going to spend a lot of time assembling and painting them, which you won't do if you don't like the models. Personally I'd say eldar, as you can easily ally in dark eldar later on down the track if you want to, 2 for 1 deal.

Furnace Keeper wrote:
Hi 40k players. I'm interested in getting into the game and have been reading a great deal online to help get my bearings, since the last time I was around 40k was back in 3rd edition. Everyone seems to recommend this forum so I wanted to ask for some advice, since sometimes reading things online you get the impression that every army has been nerfed into oblivion and we're all going to be sucked into the warp at any moment.

1. Is this a good time to start 40k? I've read that 7th edition has some bad imbalances and stumbling blocks, and being so new I have no idea how far off the next edition really is or how 'bad' this one is. I don't actually mind waiting a bit because I'm getting involved in other games as well, but I'm curious.

I probably wouldn't rush out and buy the main rulebook just yet as there's a lot of talk that 8th isn't too far away. Pick an army you like the look of the models, grab their codex, 1 HQ and 2 troops and get painting. Once you've got a few games under your belt, you'll have a better idea what you want to do.

2. I'm trying to narrow down which army I want to play. So far the Mechanicus/Skitarii, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Dark Eldar most appeal to me based on models and background material. I was just wondering if any of these are recommended for a beginner. Every time I read about Dark Eldar people imply they're horribly difficult to play and making one mistake will cause my models to shatter into shards of plastic which catch fire etc. I'll ultimately go with whatever appeals to my particular whims, but I at least want to know what I'm getting into.

- Mech/Skitarii are a bit bland on their own to be honest, but are perfect as a combined force. Skitarii can be quite potent at lower points (1k or less) while mechanicum can really start to shine at larger values (1500+), so starting with Skitarii and adding mechanicum later is usually the go to, especially since mechanicium generally has smaller units which can be a bit difficult against some opponents. There's probably only 1 dud unit in both dexes (electropriests), everything else has their moments. Some models can be quite a pain to assemble and the same to paint.
- IG are in a bit of a spot with a weak codex, but depending on what armies you play against, and what mission types are played, they can still make a game of it, though there are quite a few trap units in the codex. You can do almost any theme other than spamming monsters as guard, so it can cater for a wide range of options and later expansion of forces. Usually involves painting a bunch of infantry though, but other than that, fairly beginner friendly.
- Eldar are probably one of the most beginner friendly armies in that regardless of what you pick, it'll be good. Unfortunately, unless you go out of your way to make a bad list, it'll be very easy to have a bunch of extremely one sided games, especially with you like wraith units and/or jetbikes. There's also a certain social stigma assocaiated with playing Eldar (as you've already seen in less than half a dozen posts) from some people in the community.
- Dark Eldar are not beginner friendly at all IMHO. Fragile, expensive units that require paper thin transports and minimal effective anti tank or anti MC does not a beginner friendly army make. Fantastic models though. Makes a great second army or painting project.

3. I've read about formations and understand the general concept of detachments and unbound armies. If I at some point get into playing full-on tournaments, do they generally have rules about how many detachments you can bring in a single army?

Depends. Used to be 1, then 2, then 3, now you've got all sorts, but generally 3 is the most common limit that you'll find. Ask around your local area and build for that to start with.

4. I have also read about some very powerful mega-detachments that have potent bonuses for following their rules (Decurian-style is the term I've read most, I'm guessing the Necron Decurion was the first such formation?). It's usually also implied these things are tailored for sweeping tournaments and will make friendly games a nightmare for your opponent. This is subjective, of course, but is it possible to use a Craftworld Warhost or AdMech War Convocation that is reasonable for casual play and actually fun to play against?

Yes, the Necron Decurion was the first Core/Command/Auxilary multi-formation detatchment and Decurion has become the colloquial term for that type of detatchment, even for other races. Decurion and War Convocation generally aren't meant for casual games, the Gladius (double demi-company) is another that's generally not much fun (but at least the opponent can kill stuff) and Eldar Tournament lists generally find their War Host to be too limiting compared to the flexibility and ObSec of a CAD and formations, but Eldar are strong enough that you can make virtually anything work, and can easily fall into not being fun for casual games regardless of formations or detatchment bonuses.

The general rule of thumb is that Eldar/Marines/Dark Angels/Necron/Tau and certain Daemon armies can all have a good fun match playing against each other, Space Wolves/Khorne Daemonkin/Other Daemon Armies/Skitarii/AdMech/Grey Knights are all about equal and then everyone else is on the special bus but roughly competative with each other down there on the bottom rung. That's not to say that it's impossible for Tau and Dark Eldar to have a fun, close game, but the DE generally have to work for it while the Tau have to tailor their army to not get easy wins, and even then, I'd still be a considerable sum on the Tau army 95% of the time.

5. How important is Objective Secured? As far as I can tell it's limited to the troops in a Combined Arms Detachment, and most armies have special formations and detachments that do not get it. Is the rule a big deal? Should I make an army that uses it before I try more exotic things?

Not at all, until you need it, then it's the most important thing in the game. The more that you play against armies without ObSec, the more important it becomes. You generally win by holding more objectives than your opponent, ObSec lets you do that more easily, even if their stuff is at the objective too. It's not really something to worry too much about as you get started, but once you've figured out your army a bit more, then it's time to decide if you want to benefit from the formations bonuses like armywide 4+ reanimation like Necrons, Some ObSec and some flexibility like a CAD or extreme ObSec spam like Gladius, with each having their pros and cons.

I appreciate any advice. I know some of these are vague and open to opinion, but I thought it better to ask directly.

Responses in Green.

Please don't do that. Use quote tags properly.

Thank you for all the replies They answered my questions wonderfully. I had two final things to ask, as I read through the responses. Is it possible to run a CAD of pure Skitarii? I assume no, since they don't have an actual HQ and come with the special formation. Also, is it possible to run Cult Mechanicus as a CAD? It looked like that can fulfill the base requirements, but I wasn't sure if lacking any Fast Attack units fouled that up somehow.

The only things a CAD requires is a HQ and Troops - you can make a CAD using a Codex that doesn't have any choices for Fast Attack, no problems.

And no, you can't run a Skitarii CAD, but they do have their own Detachment equivalent I believe?

It's not a CAD, but you only need two Troops to use the Skitarii Maniple. You lack Objective Secured, but all models get Tireless Advance. It's a good start towards the Battle Maniple and War Convocation Formation should you decide to expand your Skitarii Army.

If you decide to go that route you'll need one of almost every unit in the Codex, and they can be used in the Skitarii Maniple as long as you don't invest in too many of the same model.

Cult Mechanicus has even less options for units and a higher points cost. They complement each other (aside from neither bringing a transport), which makes sense considering they should share the same codex.

I just started up a Skitarii Army and am building towards the War Convocation. Good luck with your future army.

Furnace Keeper wrote:1. Is this a good time to start 40k? I've read that 7th edition has some bad imbalances and stumbling blocks, and being so new I have no idea how far off the next edition really is or how 'bad' this one is. I don't actually mind waiting a bit because I'm getting involved in other games as well, but I'm curious.

Well it's a case of you are right - 7th Edition has some major flaws. But I doubt that will change overly much with the next edition. GW will (hopefully) at least try to fix the imbalances in 7th Edition, but even if they do fix all the imbalances and all that, the next edition will still have a myriad of its own problems. Essentially: Now is as good of a time to start as any.

Furnace Keeper wrote:2. I'm trying to narrow down which army I want to play. So far the Mechanicus/Skitarii, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Dark Eldar most appeal to me based on models and background material. I was just wondering if any of these are recommended for a beginner. Every time I read about Dark Eldar people imply they're horribly difficult to play and making one mistake will cause my models to shatter into shards of plastic which catch fire etc. I'll ultimately go with whatever appeals to my particular whims, but I at least want to know what I'm getting into.

I don't know much about these armies myself, so unfortunately I have no advice other than the usual which is: Go with your gut feeling in terms of which one you like the most because that will probably be your best option.

Furnace Keeper wrote:5. How important is Objective Secured? As far as I can tell it's limited to the troops in a Combined Arms Detachment, and most armies have special formations and detachments that do not get it. Is the rule a big deal? Should I make an army that uses it before I try more exotic things?

Objective Secured is relatively important in Mealstrom Games as well as any other game type (official or custom) that involves capturing objectives. It's importance can vary depending on how you decided to play the game as well as the army composition of the players involved, but it is a definitely a bonus having Objective Secured in an objective-based scenario.

Traditio wrote:

2. I'm trying to narrow down which army I want to play. So far the Mechanicus/Skitarii, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Dark Eldar most appeal to me based on models and background material.

Here is what's going to happen if you play Eldar:

People like me will openly shun and speak ill of you, and not only that, but actively avoid games with you.

Here's what will happen with imperial guard and Dark Eldar: You will lose. Over and over again. With absolutely no hope of winning. You will get crushed on a regular basis by competitive Eldar and Space Marine players.

If you play Mechanicus and Skitari, you may or may not win, but you very well might be disliked by a substantial minority of the player base because you play something with strange and unfamiliar rules which may or may not be well balanced in comparison to the rest of the game.

What you've said here, Traditio, highlights the importance of avoiding bigots as opposed to being a sound argument for not buying/playing Eldar. You want to give somebody (especially someone who's just starting out) some advice? Try avoiding such bigotry.

It depends on your motivation for play. If you want to be competitive then there's a lot of sound advice above! Eldar and SM seem to be the current top dogs.

I play because I love the fluff and enjoy painting and modelling the figures. I build armies to be characterful and look and feel right so mine are 'fluffy' and not built in any way to try and win. If you're like me then you'll probably choose a faction you think is cool and then collect all the units available to allow you to field as you want.

Just my thoughts.

 Peregrine wrote:
Please ignore Traditio's "advice". He has a bizarre vendetta against all Tau and Eldar players and believes that anyone who doesn't play an army exactly like his is a WAAC TFG. In the real world playing Eldar is just fine. If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.

There was a poll done a while back about who the least favorite armies to play against were.

Tau was top of the list.

If you look at the most complained about units in the game, they are in the Necron, Space Marine, Tau and Eldar codices.

 Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Please ignore Traditio's "advice". He has a bizarre vendetta against all Tau and Eldar players and believes that anyone who doesn't play an army exactly like his is a WAAC TFG. In the real world playing Eldar is just fine. If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.

There was a poll done a while back about who the least favorite armies to play against were.

Tau was top of the list.

If you look at the most complained about units in the game, they are in the Necron, Space Marine, Tau and Eldar codices.

Shouldn't determine what he plays and collects regardless; if he wants it, he should get it. Codex imbalances cannot be blamed on him by anyone with any logical decency

General Annoyance wrote:Shouldn't determine what he plays and collects regardless

Of course. But he should understand from the get go that at least some people WILL look down on him if he does. There is a good chance that he WILL be refused games if he opts to buy x, y or z army.

Ultimately, its his money, and he can spend it on whatever army he wants (or not).

But there will be consequences to his choices.

If he picks orks, he is going to lose a lot.

If he picks Eldar and buys scatterbikes, wraithknights and bike farseers, he is going to win a lot of games with virtually no skill required on his part...if and when people are actually willing to play with him.

if he wants it, he should get it. Codex imbalances cannot be blamed on him by anyone with any logical decency

He can't be blamed for codex imbalance. He can be blamed for buying into it.

Traditio wrote:

Of course. But he should understand from the get go that at least some people WILL look down on him if he does. There is a good chance that he WILL be refused games if he opts to buy x, y or z army.

Most reasonable people will be willing to play newcomers, whether they're playing competitively or not.

Traditio wrote:Ultimately, its his money, and he can spend it on whatever army he wants (or not)

Precisely

Traditio wrote:But there will be consequences to his choices

Consequences to just about any purchase in life. Will it haunt his dreams that the army that he wanted to collect and owns is shunned by other players who consider it OP? Probably not. But he'd be disappointed if he was forced into purchasing something that he wasn't keen on because people want 40k to be a perfect paradise of game balance. Which it isn't.

At least he won't have nightmares about buying a leaky pressure cooker

Traditio wrote:If he picks orks, he is going to lose a lot.

Tell me about it Good thing I stopped playing

Traditio wrote:If he picks Eldar and buys scatterbikes, wraithknights and bike farseers, he is going to win a lot of games with virtually no skill required on his part...if and when people are actually willing to play with him.

A game with so many dice rolls can hardly have a very high skill ceiling. 40k certainly ain't one of those TT games with a lot of skill required, regardless of army played (with a few exceptions that slightly increase the pressure, such as DE)

Traditio wrote:He can't be blamed for codex imbalance. He can be blamed for buying into it.

Nah - people around him can be blamed for crushing his ideas on the army he wants to collect though by telling him to play something else


Most people I know just simply accept that 40k is a broken game, and often come together as a community to make everyone's experience more enjoyable. Or they just quit like me to play something more balanced; 40k can be played however you want, and if you don't like the rules, you have every right to play at home with friends with some house rules or not play at all. Not directed at you specifically, but don't push your ideals for playing 40k onto other people

G.A

No better time than now! Skitarii & Eldar are what i'd suggest, as they're pretty good this time 'round. The other two are very unit heavy and get mashed by anything big. The IG do have big tanks, if that appeals(It usually does )
To answer #3 I wouldn't know. As a Necron player, I only use the so-called "Mega-Detachment" of the Decurion you mention in #4. They're generally not too bad when I use them(I may just be bad, but i'd like to think otherwise ), but they may be OP in other scenarios.

Hope this helps buddy, welcome to the hobby!

General Annoyance wrote:Most reasonable people will be willing to play newcomers, whether they're playing competitively or not.

Want to make a poll about it? "Would you be willing to play against a newbie opponent playing a 'cheese' army that you normally would not play against?"

There's nothing apparently unreasonable about refusing to play against such people. If I normally wouldn't want to play against an unbound riptide army, why would I magically want to play against one simply because my opponent is a newbie?

Consequences to just about any purchase in life. Will it haunt his dreams that the army that he wanted to collect and owns is shunned by other players who consider it OP? Probably not. But he'd be disappointed if he was forced into purchasing something that he wasn't keen on because people want 40k to be a perfect paradise of game balance. Which it isn't.

"Forced"? He's not forced to buy any army at all, much less one that he is or is not keen on.

Nah - people around him can be blamed for crushing his ideas on the army he wants to collect though by telling him to play something else

I'm not telling him to play something else. I'm telling him this:

There is a disparity between different kinds of army in this game.

Some will all but guarantee that he loses, even if he's very good at the game. Some will all but guarantee that he wins, even if he has virtually no skill at the game.

His choice of armies will, furthermore, impact the willingness of other people to play with him.

These are just the plain, incontrovertible facts.

Most people I know just simply accept that 40k is a broken game, and often come together as a community to make everyone's experience more enjoyable. Or they just quit like me to play something more balanced; 40k can be played however you want, and if you don't like the rules, you have every right to play at home with friends or not play at all. Not directed at you, but don't push your ideals for playing 40k onto other people

G.A

So, in answer to the initial question, "is this a good time to play this game," according to GA himself, the answer is "No."

Evidence? He quit.

 Traditio wrote:

Want to make a poll about it? "Would you be willing to play against a newbie opponent playing a 'cheese' army that you normally would not play against?"

There's nothing apparently unreasonable about refusing to play against such people. If I normally wouldn't want to play against an unbound riptide army, why would I magically want to play against one simply because my opponent is a newbie?

A poll is just a set of numbers that doesn't mean jack when it comes to individual communities; they're either going to reject him as you said or accept him as I said. A poll on the internet won't change that. I would say that out of decency you'd play with a newcomer to give him a chance to enjoy the game and learn the rules, and put winning or losing as a much lower priority.

"Forced"? He's not forced to buy any army at all, much less one that he is or is not keen on.

Precisely, but it'd be a shame if he was by his community before he followed his own gut feelings about the armies presented to him

I'm not telling him to play something else. I'm telling him this:

There is a disparity between different kinds of army in this game.

Some will all but guarantee that he loses, even if he's very good at the game. Some will all but guarantee that he wins, even if he has virtually no skill at the game.

His choice of armies will, furthermore, impact the willingness of other people to play with him.

These are just the plain, incontrovertible facts.

Again there are so many dice rolls in this game that skill barely comes into question after your first few months of playing; you know to move your troops into cover, to deep strike x unit here to destroy y unit, and to play to the strengths of your faction. Not much skill outside that besides the occasional situational thing.

And again, I think willingness to play someone is a subjective matter based on how and why you're playing the game.

So, in answer to the initial question, "is this a good time to play this game," according to GA himself, the answer is "No."

Evidence? He quit.

Now that's an undeniable fact - I do think it's a bad idea to get into the hobby gaming wise. But I'm just one guy with an opinion, as are you

However, I'd feel bad for letting my personal choices affect a newcomer's choices, so he should do as he pleases in my opinion, and I'll try to be as helpful as possible in assisting his choice, be it to play or not to play, to take OP army or not to take OP army

G.A

 Traditio wrote:

General Annoyance wrote:Most reasonable people will be willing to play newcomers, whether they're playing competitively or not.

Want to make a poll about it? "Would you be willing to play against a newbie opponent playing a 'cheese' army that you normally would not play against?"

There's nothing apparently unreasonable about refusing to play against such people. If I normally wouldn't want to play against an unbound riptide army, why would I magically want to play against one simply because my opponent is a newbie?

Consequences to just about any purchase in life. Will it haunt his dreams that the army that he wanted to collect and owns is shunned by other players who consider it OP? Probably not. But he'd be disappointed if he was forced into purchasing something that he wasn't keen on because people want 40k to be a perfect paradise of game balance. Which it isn't.

"Forced"? He's not forced to buy any army at all, much less one that he is or is not keen on.

Nah - people around him can be blamed for crushing his ideas on the army he wants to collect though by telling him to play something else

I'm not telling him to play something else. I'm telling him this:

There is a disparity between different kinds of army in this game.

Some will all but guarantee that he loses, even if he's very good at the game. Some will all but guarantee that he wins, even if he has virtually no skill at the game.

His choice of armies will, furthermore, impact the willingness of other people to play with him.

These are just the plain, incontrovertible facts.

Most people I know just simply accept that 40k is a broken game, and often come together as a community to make everyone's experience more enjoyable. Or they just quit like me to play something more balanced; 40k can be played however you want, and if you don't like the rules, you have every right to play at home with friends or not play at all. Not directed at you, but don't push your ideals for playing 40k onto other people

G.A

So, in answer to the initial question, "is this a good time to play this game," according to GA himself, the answer is "No."

Evidence? He quit.

First off please stop making polls. They're such a waste of time.

Second nobody started talking about starting a cheese army just Eldar and you might play a newbie to teach them about the game and to not look like a donkey cave.

Third you aren't telling him facts you're spouting ridiculous stereotypes that you use to try and force people to like your way.

Fourth even if his army has an impact on who will play him what matters far more is how he behaves. Example: I would happy play any army against a nice person but I will not play any army that a TFG uses because it will be an ordeal to get through the game.

Just don't play Space Marines ... For the love of God. Lack of variety is killing the hobby.

My advice is; don't read dakka too much. All the negativity of the hobby comes here to rot, as you can see in the thread.
Even when I hear people complaining about something IRL, it's usually an idea they've gotten from here and will be prefaced with "I read on dakka that..."
People in the shops and clubs are usually better.

Play what you want to. Take what you want to. If people don't like your choice, they can leave, but there will still be people who will still play you and have a good time with it.
Don't let someone threaten you by saying "If you take X, you're a WAAC TFG and I won't play you" - a fair amount of people in my experience would only turn you down for your attitude, not what you bring to the table, good or bad.

40k may be going under for another edition soon, but without any evidence for it, I can't say. A good idea may be to hold off on buying anything for now, and when the new edition drops (which may or may not be a while) pick it up then.

As for tournaments, it's always best to speak to the TO themselves. Some tournaments do restrict you, whereas others do not. There is no simple answer to that.

Generally pick the army you will like to model, paint and play. This hobby is far more than just the game, so if you're much better off if you pick an army that you'll get the most enjoyment out of. Why pay hundreds of dollars when the only thing you might remotely enjoy is one game every two weeks to a month when you can pick an army you love to model and paint, and occasionally get a victory with.

That said, here's something direct to your questions:

1. This is an iffy one. Rumors has it that 8th edition (or AGE OF IMPERIUM) is right around the block within the next year or so, and with rulebooks becoming increasingly more expensive, you might wanna hold off on purchasing the core rulebook. Model-wise however it is rare for GW to completely invalidate entire ranges (the only one to recently have happen is the Dark Eldar, but that was cuz their entire range was older than most players) so buying miniatures is never a bad move. If you can, see if you can bum a mini-rulebook off of someone who bought multiple Dark Vengeances or just ask if you can borrow one during games for the time being. Other than GW stores, most people are actually cool with this (for your codex though, that you should get).

2. Each of the armies you've listed are vastly different from each other.:

Admechs bring rather slow but durable, powerful troops to bear with exotic weaponry and special rules. Essentially think of an implaccable gunline that marches towards you (in this respect they're similar to a Necron gunline). The main problem with them is that the army is basically split into two different Codexes, making army building a hassle (no, in general you can't mix the two unless you have a formation specifically allowing you). Otherwise, if you prefer Tesla and steampunk, this army has all you'll need.

Guard are nicknamed the "Hammer of the Emperor" for a reason; you buy decently cheap, powerful straightforward weapons and hammer your opponent to death (even the order system is comparatively simple compared to the buff systems of other armies). Imperial Guard also appeals to many treadheads and historical war buffs because their tanks and troops vary from all kinds of historical armies and have the most personality (in appearance if not rules). They also have a wide selection of tanks and because of the lore saying that Forge Worlds can have wildly different patterns of the same type of tank, it opens up a lot of opportunity for conversions if you can score some historical tank kits.

Dark Eldar is the hard one; aside from the Talos, the heaviest armor in your army is the weakest armor in every other army. This applies to your vehicles as well. To play them you need almost an encyclopedic knowledge of enemy codexes and units to be effective, as well as being able to adjust your tactics on the fly to take advantage of terrain, cover and battlefield situations. On the other hand they have one of the most gorgeous model ranges in the game and can steal stuff from AoS Dark Elves, Skaven monstrosities and even Undead (Crypt Horrors and Ghouls make for good budget Grotesques and Wracks when mixed with DE parts) if you want some variety, making the army a joy to build.

Eldar are a mixed bag with a lot of people (although don't listen to nay-sayers like a certain someone up there ) because a very few selection of their units are heinously overpowered. Namely the Wraithguard, Wraithknight, Scatter Laser Bikes and Warp Spiders. Avoid spamming these units and you'll find that Eldar isn't actually all that bad (I personally run a non-Warp Spider Aspect Host). Eldar have some incredibly colorful background and a pretty decent model range, but don't have a lot of conversion opportunities compared to the other ones. This is because they have a certain aesthetic that is hard to reproduce. Dark Eldar avoids this because they can use more twisted, fleshy models from ranges such as Skaven and Undead, but Eldar only really share an aesthetic with the High elves, and only barely because the high elves prefer chainmail robes over skin-tight jumpsuits. Exodites offer far more conversion opportunities (Exodites don't have rules so people just use normal Eldar Rules with custom models) but that's a whole different bag.

Hope those help you in deciding which one you'd like.

3. This varies between Tournaments to Tournaments and while I don't attend tournaments, it seems in general it's one Combined Arms Detachment + one other Detachment. Again this is subject to change depending on the organizer so always check beforehand. Having a CAD in your collection always helps as, when in doubt, that is always acceptable.

4. If you note from all the complaints, these type of Meta-detachments that sweep tournaments generally boil down to one or two specific builds. If you just go with what you like, very rarely does it result in something that's "unfun" for the other guy. For example, specifically for the Craftworld Warhost, if you take a Guardian Battlehost, don't spam the Wraithknights (one is ok), don't buy 5 copies of 3-Warp Spider-based Aspect Hosts, it should be fine. Personally I prefer the Guardian Battlehost + 3 Fire Prisms backed by a single Aspect Host of some Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees, harkens back to the old edition of Eldar where each unit had a special role and you relied on your farseer and warlocks to buff them.

5. This entirely depends on the army and playstyle. Stuff like the Infernal Tetrad of the Chaos Daemons don't give half a crap about it because they have so few models that it's not even worth trying to capture objectives; much better to punch everything else to death. Meanwhile Armies that can spam ObSec (like the infamous Space Marine full battle company in a Gladius) makes a lot of use out of it because even if you can kill 10 units over the course of the game, they have 30 units to cap objectives all game long. Losing ObSec isn't as big of an issue as before, but just know when you can afford to lose it.

Furnace Keeper wrote:
Hi 40k players. I'm interested in getting into the game and have been reading a great deal online to help get my bearings, since the last time I was around 40k was back in 3rd edition. Everyone seems to recommend this forum so I wanted to ask for some advice, since sometimes reading things online you get the impression that every army has been nerfed into oblivion and we're all going to be sucked into the warp at any moment.

1. Is this a good time to start 40k? I've read that 7th edition has some bad imbalances and stumbling blocks, and being so new I have no idea how far off the next edition really is or how 'bad' this one is. I don't actually mind waiting a bit because I'm getting involved in other games as well, but I'm curious.

2. I'm trying to narrow down which army I want to play. So far the Mechanicus/Skitarii, Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Dark Eldar most appeal to me based on models and background material. I was just wondering if any of these are recommended for a beginner. Every time I read about Dark Eldar people imply they're horribly difficult to play and making one mistake will cause my models to shatter into shards of plastic which catch fire etc. I'll ultimately go with whatever appeals to my particular whims, but I at least want to know what I'm getting into.

3. I've read about formations and understand the general concept of detachments and unbound armies. If I at some point get into playing full-on tournaments, do they generally have rules about how many detachments you can bring in a single army?

4. I have also read about some very powerful mega-detachments that have potent bonuses for following their rules (Decurian-style is the term I've read most, I'm guessing the Necron Decurion was the first such formation?). It's usually also implied these things are tailored for sweeping tournaments and will make friendly games a nightmare for your opponent. This is subjective, of course, but is it possible to use a Craftworld Warhost or AdMech War Convocation that is reasonable for casual play and actually fun to play against?

5. How important is Objective Secured? As far as I can tell it's limited to the troops in a Combined Arms Detachment, and most armies have special formations and detachments that do not get it. Is the rule a big deal? Should I make an army that uses it before I try more exotic things?

I appreciate any advice. I know some of these are vague and open to opinion, but I thought it better to ask directly.

1. 6th Edition had bad stumbling blocks. 7E was the fix. Maybe they were referring to 6E.

2 Eldar and Skitarii are likely the simplest to play. Dark Eldar are an excellent force, but they are soo soo unforgiving. I wouldnt start with them. Guard are fun but a lot of painting so maybe not as a beginner army.

3. Generally three detachments are allowed.

4. The 0-1 Superheavy rule is an ITC standard so keep that in mind if you get competitive. As for super detachments, there is really only one that I truly think is silly pants: The Battle Company. The ecurion is good, even excellent, but its lack of obsec generally causes it problems so I cannot say that its friendly but its also very far from unbeatable.

5 I think objective Secured is absolutely critical. Certain powerful forces like the Battle Companies for Space Marines actually make their entire force Obsec, so there are a couple more out there than just the Combined Arms Detachment. But having said that, You really cannot go wrong with Obsec. The missions largely determine its value but I know for Tau Empire at least, I love the Objective Secured units I can bring. Eldar are the same way. Super fast, relatively cheap obsec that can gank Maelstrom Objectives from people. Saweet.