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Oh I dont disagree, Jink is a stupidly broken and far too liberally available mechanic, as are large numbers of other things. They arent mutually exclusive though in the "Ridiculous things that should be toned down" department.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Tannhauser42 wrote: One reason why Storm Shields are "cheap" is because many of the models that can take one already have an invulnerable save. So you're
usually paying to upgrade an existing invulnerable save, rather then getting one you didn't have to begin with.
Hit the nail on the head. The only thing I can think of that don't have invulnerable saves built in, are veterans. Even then they just retain their 3+.
Tl;Dr Space Marines get less out of most invulnerable saves compared to other races.
This. SM heroes and CC termies SHOULD be hard as balls to kill/wound. I mean are you people really having that much trouble with VV that this thread needs to exist?
I mean the only unit where SS point costs are questionable is the command squad. I understand the frustration there but it's kind of unnecessary to rip an entire army for 1 units questionably easy access to war gear. I'm sure there's at least one offender for every book.
That said, Space Wolves riding space wolves carrying piss-cheap storm shields are an entirely different story.
SM haters gonna hate before they get purged.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/25 20:31:46
Storm shields are basically required with power bloat for some.
All the AP, high power artillery.
You need every invul you can get...
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Vaktathi wrote: The 3++ stormshild has been something of an underpriced bargain and a driver of "stat bloat" for several editions at this point. It is what it is, but I'm still of the opinion that such should only work in CC. Invuls that strong really should be quite rare, not the baseline theyve become.
I think it should still do something outside cc. Do 30k and reduce it at range.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Vaktathi wrote: The 3++ stormshild has been something of an underpriced bargain and a driver of "stat bloat" for several editions at this point. It is what it is, but I'm still of the opinion that such should only work in CC. Invuls that strong really should be quite rare, not the baseline theyve become.
I think it should still do something outside cc. Do 30k and reduce it at range.
4++ at range, 3++ in melee? I can get behind that, as it doesn't change the survivability of SM Captains at all (who seem to be one of the main offenders people bring up).
I'm just going to do a lil bit of maths and assumptive work on the SE, spoilered for those who don't care.
Spoiler:
So, the standard Shield Eternal. Costs 10 Meltabombs' worth.
We can divide the Shield Eternal into three general aspects: the Storm Shield, the Eternal Warrior (the main offender and reason it's so popular with people who want tanky HQs, or just want to have their fluffy leader live a lil longer under the plethora of AP1-2 weaponry) and the Adamantium Will part (which I think most people forget about - I know I do.)
So, how do we divide the points up? We know the points of the Storm Shield part, it states it in the SM codex itself - 3 Meltabombs' worth.
Now, using some estimation from the old SW codex, that allowed EW to be bought for Wolf Lords, who have a similar stat-line to standard SM Captains, we can gather that EW should cost 7 Meltabombs' worth.
Adamantium Will, to my knowledge, has no analogous equipment, save for in the IG codex, listing it at 3 points for certain models. All combined, this would put the Shield Eternal at 10 meltabombs and three points. Rounding up to 11 meltabombs.
So, the Shield Eternal IS undercosted on a footslogging SM Captain - by three/five points.
Vaktathi wrote: The 3++ stormshild has been something of an underpriced bargain and a driver of "stat bloat" for several editions at this point. It is what it is, but I'm still of the opinion that such should only work in CC. Invuls that strong really should be quite rare, not the baseline theyve become.
I think it should still do something outside cc. Do 30k and reduce it at range.
4++ at range, 3++ in melee? I can get behind that, as it doesn't change the survivability of SM Captains at all (who seem to be one of the main offenders people bring up).
I'm just going to do a lil bit of maths and assumptive work on the SE, spoilered for those who don't care.
Spoiler:
So, the standard Shield Eternal. Costs 10 Meltabombs' worth.
We can divide the Shield Eternal into three general aspects: the Storm Shield, the Eternal Warrior (the main offender and reason it's so popular with people who want tanky HQs, or just want to have their fluffy leader live a lil longer under the plethora of AP1-2 weaponry) and the Adamantium Will part (which I think most people forget about - I know I do.)
So, how do we divide the points up? We know the points of the Storm Shield part, it states it in the SM codex itself - 3 Meltabombs' worth.
Now, using some estimation from the old SW codex, that allowed EW to be bought for Wolf Lords, who have a similar stat-line to standard SM Captains, we can gather that EW should cost 7 Meltabombs' worth.
Adamantium Will, to my knowledge, has no analogous equipment, save for in the IG codex, listing it at 3 points for certain models. All combined, this would put the Shield Eternal at 10 meltabombs and three points. Rounding up to 11 meltabombs.
So, the Shield Eternal IS undercosted on a footslogging SM Captain - by three/five points.
I could live with that. (Although I'm not massively bothered now personally.)
Now if we started chatting about removing/nerfing massively the Shield Eternal I'd be a happy person.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Vaktathi wrote: The 3++ stormshild has been something of an underpriced bargain and a driver of "stat bloat" for several editions at this point. It is what it is, but I'm still of the opinion that such should only work in CC. Invuls that strong really should be quite rare, not the baseline theyve become.
I think it should still do something outside cc. Do 30k and reduce it at range.
4++ at range, 3++ in melee? I can get behind that, as it doesn't change the survivability of SM Captains at all (who seem to be one of the main offenders people bring up).
I'm just going to do a lil bit of maths and assumptive work on the SE, spoilered for those who don't care.
Spoiler:
So, the standard Shield Eternal. Costs 10 Meltabombs' worth.
We can divide the Shield Eternal into three general aspects: the Storm Shield, the Eternal Warrior (the main offender and reason it's so popular with people who want tanky HQs, or just want to have their fluffy leader live a lil longer under the plethora of AP1-2 weaponry) and the Adamantium Will part (which I think most people forget about - I know I do.)
So, how do we divide the points up? We know the points of the Storm Shield part, it states it in the SM codex itself - 3 Meltabombs' worth.
Now, using some estimation from the old SW codex, that allowed EW to be bought for Wolf Lords, who have a similar stat-line to standard SM Captains, we can gather that EW should cost 7 Meltabombs' worth.
Adamantium Will, to my knowledge, has no analogous equipment, save for in the IG codex, listing it at 3 points for certain models. All combined, this would put the Shield Eternal at 10 meltabombs and three points. Rounding up to 11 meltabombs.
So, the Shield Eternal IS undercosted on a footslogging SM Captain - by three/five points.
You're paying for the bundle though. In the same way, Master-Crafting a weapon is 5-10 points, but nobody is calling the Axe Of Medusa undercosted in any single form. EW is also worth 25-30 points, looking at the Salamanders and Sisters relics.
Just because an item is always bought doesn't mean it is broken.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
