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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 11:45:02
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider
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I may be completely off on this, but A, I doubt it, and B, I wanted to share my thoughts and see what other people thought.
I was browsing the Space Wolves codex and found that a Storm Shield is a 3++ save but doesn't provide the bonus of an extra weapon in close combat for 15 points
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I thought this was obscenely cheap using the Dark Eldar equivalent of a Clone Field, which is 20 points for a 4++. Or the Shadow Field, which is 40 points for a 2++ that disappears once you fail it once. Or the closest Tau equivalent of 25 points for a 4++ Shield Generator (Or 50 points for a twin-linked shield generator but I don't understand this)
Now maybe it is just me, but this just does not work out in any way for me, particularly considering that the models who can take the Storm Shield usually have 3+/2+ armour saves whereas the Dark Eldar model who can take the Clone or Shadow have a 5+ armour save and lower toughness. (With a max feel no pain of 4+ on turn three if you have a Cronos within 6")
Could someone perhaps justify this or is it purely ridiculousness personified?
Any examples of buying invulnerable saves for other units from other codex's may help too.
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4000 points
1500 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 11:51:25
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Fixture of Dakka
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You've kind of already listed some very good reasons for this difference in price. A marine generally already has a 3+ or even 2+armor. So a storm shield doesn't really improve his save; it just lets him still have a save when the low AP shots start coming his way. If he's standing in ruins, he'd already have a 4+. So you're paying 15 points to essentially get a marine armor save regardless of what's shooting you, and you give up a bonus attack for it.
Compare to a dark eldar who kind of sort of doesn't really have a save to begin with (5+ is ignored by lots of stuff) and thus benefits from a 4+ invul more consistently.
That said, GW isn't terribly consistent with their pricing of things, and dark eldar wargear in general is notoriously overcosted.
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ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 13:42:59
Subject: Re:Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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3++ save shield is fine. It could maybe go up to 20 points for Chapter masters, but it's not going to break the game. Not to mention most Space Marine characters already have a 4++, so realistically you are only adding an additional 16.7% increase in his invulnerable save. Which doesn't always come into play because he already has a 2+ save and cover exists in 40K as well.
Also you should never compare anything to the DE codex. It's the worst written piece of gak ever made by GW.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/23 13:44:52
Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 13:50:55
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch
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The standard price of a 4++ is 25 points on multi wound T4/5 infantry models (iron halo/sigil/shield gen/phase shifter). A 5++ is generally around 10 points.
Stormshields are definately out of whack pricing-wise. I can get behind it for 1W models like VV since they benefit a lot less, but for multi wound stuff like TWC, it's far too cheap. The loss of the extra attack doesn't compensate nearly enough for the huge defensive bump for the lower points cost.
On the other hand, increase the points cost too much and you'd never see them taken since almost everything dies to weight of fire anyway instead of AP2/3 guns, though with the proliferation of good AP2 volume of fire weapons over the last few years, it's gotten increasing so that unless you've got multiple layers of saves, then it's not wrth putting on the field.
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Peregrine wrote:What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 13:54:25
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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3++ is, expressed differently, something that fails 33% of the time.
This is why you don't shoot it with stuff that has low AP to justify its cost, you just drown it with high volume, high AP (even Bolters will do) to force as many saves as possible, 1s or 2s will come up eventually.
Assault Termies don't worry about Lascannons, they worry about scat bikes, dakkafexes, large mobs of Orks etc.. They're just about the most efficient way of taking them down.
Don't be like the guy at our club who got into the mindset that it was somehow massively resilient, gave one to the Sgt of his massively over equipped and pointy vanguard vets, with the intention of tanking the hits, failed his first save (and then the rest of the hundreds of points worth of unit very soon after) and folded top of turn one!
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 18:08:03
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider
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I understand that a 3++ save isn't the be all and end all and is unstoppable. I'm just arguing that Space Marines do get it a lot cheaper than other races and justifying that they get it cheaper because they are better so it does less for them doesn't really make much sense in my eyes. It's saying, this unit is good, it has a good save, good toughness, but lets make it better by letting it take a 3++ for 15 points. That is pretty much an auto take. Whilst the Dark Eldar Shadow Field is a pretty much auto-take at 40 points because it is absolutely necessary for survival. Otherwise basic weapons with Ap5 will be killing my HQ with no armour saves.
For example 15 points to give a Thunderwolf Cavalry guy a 3+ save is absolutely ridiculous.
Yes on a single captain or HQ it isn't so bad but when compared to other races it is still pretty out priced. I would have easily expected it to be a good 30+ points rather than 15.
If a Tau Shield generator is 25 and gives a 4++, whilst a Dark Eldar shadow field is 2++ goes if failed for 40, then I'd argue a storm shield should be 35 points for what it does. After all, contrary to the logic above, surely if anything the upgrade should cost more points because the model getting it is better.
As an example:
Lets compare a Dark Eldar Kabalite Warrior to a standard Space Marine, the Space Marine is (arguably) better in terms of stats, but costs more points. Let's say, for the purposes of this example, that they can equip a shield thing that gives them a 2++. But for the Kabalite it costs 50 points because it benefits them more, and only costs 25 points for the Space Marine because it isn't as huge a benefit. The Space Marine is still going to be better than the Kabalite but will now be quite a lot of points cheaper.
Whereas if the upgrade costed 50 for both of them, the Space Marine would still be better than the Kabalite, but they would be back up to the normal amount of points.
Does this make any points or am I sounding a bit like a Wrack trying to type?
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4000 points
1500 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 18:11:28
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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It doesn't really matter what reasoning you use because GW doesn't actually put real thought into its rules anyways
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 18:12:03
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Thing is the Storm Shield isn't always an auto take. There isn't much reason to take it on my Wolf Lord because there isn't a great benefit.
35 is way too much. It would never be taken especially as there's no downside to other invuls.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 18:20:08
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Enginseer with a Wrench
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I don't think Stormshields are too cheap, I think AP 1-3 is too common and accessible.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 18:28:04
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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A Space Marine Captain already has a built-in Invuln of 4++.
By technicality, the Storm Shield costs 40 points, when you take the 25 point Iron Halo (as determined for MEQ Captains by the CSM codex) and add the 15 point shield.
A model with no armour save would get more use out of the storm shield than a model with a 2+ armour, because the shield then becomes their only form of protection.
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They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 19:46:18
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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BA get them. They don't really help that much. They're fine as is. I guess they are a lot more abusive on TWC and Wulfen though. They should probably cost a lot more for those models now that I think about it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 21:41:30
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Stormshields are fine, there just needs to be less AP1 and AP2 in the game. The second that happens their actual value is diminished as AP6 weapons is still going to allow them to take a 3+ save anyway.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 22:18:27
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Quickjager wrote:Stormshields are fine, there just needs to be less AP1 and AP2 in the game. The second that happens their actual value is diminished as AP6 weapons is still going to allow them to take a 3+ save anyway.
There's already enough wound spam in the game that storm shields are a gamble. Wyverns and Missilesides don't care.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 22:39:28
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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I'd be more incline to worry about wound spam if grav and IA didn't murder a fifth of my army every turn because I don't have stormshields to begin with.
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SHUPPET wrote:
wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/23 22:51:14
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Quickjager wrote:I'd be more incline to worry about wound spam if grav and IA didn't murder a fifth of my army every turn because I don't have stormshields to begin with.
That's basically where I'm at with my archangel sanguine wing list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 02:51:00
Subject: Re:Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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No, obviously not
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 02:56:44
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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The answer is no because one thing you dot mention is that the model that primarily uses it, ie terminator, they have to use a thunder hammer which makes them attack at I1, most melee oriented elites are already going to be hitting at ap2 with most melee weapons, meaning you are going to be down to your 3++
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 03:07:50
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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As others have stated, with the amount of AP1-3 in the game it's fine on single wound models and heroes. I'd be inclined to agree in regards to TWC (as if I don't have enough reason to hate those things).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 03:30:48
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Hellacious Havoc
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Yet another example of how a la carte pricing is harmful for balance, honestly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 03:50:32
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Lukash_ wrote:Yet another example of how a la carte pricing is harmful for balance, honestly.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 06:29:36
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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He's basically saying that having wargear drawn from a master list as opposed to individual costing per unit entry is harmful because it doesn't take into account how much that piece of wargear will boost the capabilities of that unit. For example, a power fist on a Tactical Sergeant is obviously going to be much less useful than the same power fist on a Vanguard Veteran or a Captain. Yet there is no difference in cost to take that into account.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 09:57:12
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Well, Tau shield generators are 25 points for a 4++ (the 50 points isn't for "twin linked", its for ghostkeel and stormsurge)
Nobody ever takes it. even on Commanders (are are T4 with 4 wounds and armor 3, and as such easy kills for heavy guns) its a rare take.
So one would argue, that rather than being too cheap for marines-its too expensive for everyone else.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 10:55:54
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider
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BoomWolf wrote:So one would argue, that rather than being too cheap for marines-its too expensive for everyone else.
This is true.
Make shield generators/clone fields/ect 10 points a pop. And Make a Shadow Field say 25 points and that balances out a fair bit.
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4000 points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 11:25:53
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Screaming Shining Spear
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Eldar Corsairs shadow fields - identical to the DE item - are 25 points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 17:08:53
Subject: Re:Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don't know what your talking about in regards to SM getting Invuls for cheap or other races getting invuls that are to expensive.
I think that invuls are perfect in every way possible. wouldn't everyone like to have each others invul gear because its all fair and balanced for every army right? i'll gladly take that 3++ and 4++ from SMs and they in turn can have my KFF that costs 85pts and provides a 6 inch bubble with a 5++ against shooting only. Thats fair right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 17:11:45
Subject: Re:Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Brutus_Apex wrote:3++ save shield is fine. It could maybe go up to 20 points for Chapter masters, but it's not going to break the game. Not to mention most Space Marine characters already have a 4++, so realistically you are only adding an additional 16.7% increase in his invulnerable save. Which doesn't always come into play because he already has a 2+ save and cover exists in 40K as well.
Also you should never compare anything to the DE codex. It's the worst written piece of gak ever made by GW.
CSM would like to have a word with you.....
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Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 17:20:26
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Do CSM have a weapon that doesn't work most of the time?
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 17:20:48
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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pm713 wrote:Do CSM have a weapon that doesn't work most of the time?
No, but orks have a fethload of them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 17:58:05
Subject: Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Yo dawg I heard you liked rolling dice so I put a strength roll before your to wound roll so when you go to shoot you will be rolling to see if you can wound before you roll to see if you do wound.
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"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/24 18:28:27
Subject: Re:Storm Shields WAY too cheap?
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?
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One reason why Storm Shields are "cheap" is because many of the models that can take one already have an invulnerable save. So you're usually paying to upgrade an existing invulnerable save, rather then getting one you didn't have to begin with.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/24 18:28:45
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks |
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