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DorianGray wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Space Marines even now have their own game purely as a "no other factions allowed" clubhouse, and the SM playerbase of that game STILL complains ceaselessly about the TWO other non-marine factions included not being "fair" because they don't wear power armored undies.

I'm not sure who you've been speaking to, but I've never met a 30k player who thinks 30k should ONLY be Marine on Marine action. Solar Auxilla, Mechanicus, and Militia are all cool and valued parts of 30k, and the ready access of all factions to roughly the same resources makes the game far more balanced.
As a Marine player of 30k, I've never found anything the Solar Auxilla or Militia can use that is unfair, and whilst I'll admit that Mechanium automata are certainly very powerful to an unprepared opponent, they are by no means unfair at all.
In fact, the only thing I've found that tickled me the wrong way was actually a Marine thing (the instant killing hand flamers).

Next time, when you generalise, make sure something backs it up.

Who in the world plays 30k without intending to play one of the space marine factions involved in that storyline?! 30k is literally all about SMs and Primarchs have you read the Horus heresy novels? While for 40k I would guess around 50%-75% of people own/played some variant of SMs in 30k I bet 90%+ of players do. 30k is all about SM fanboyism porn.

Someone who prefers the way FW have taken the Mechanicus side to GW's own?
Someone who likes Solar Auxilla or Militia?
Someone who prefers either FW's aesthetic of their Mech/IG?
Someone who would rather avoid a lot of 40k's imbalances by moving to a seemingly less competitive platform?

30k isn't just Space Marines of their "fanboyism porn". It's widely held as a better ruleset (probably because of the reduced playable factions), a more interesting and colourful background (thanks to FW's very good fluff elements) and an excuse to use very cool looking bits of tech - either Sola Auxilla flavoured, or Mechanicus.

If you think it's only SM, maybe it's not the 30k players who are SM-based.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
There are waaaay too many marine factions and the game really became a "SM vs SM" thing lately. I have a SM army myself, but don't want to play with them anymore. The ammount of b-s formations, exclusive powers and other stuff, whichmakes them riddiculously overpowered, is one of the reasons why my gaming group decided to ban all marine armies in future games.

Or, you know, you could just rebalance the army?

Why flat out BAN marines instead of banning Formations, the exclusive rules, and perhaps grav? I doubt anyone is complaining about the base Marines themselves.
It seems your gaming group has used a sledgehammer to crack a nut on this one.

Right, sorry for the double post but I plan to expand a bit on my previous message.

I'm an SM player. I have a DIY chapter and a small 30K Alpha Legion force. I like the models, I like their style and their background.

I hate everything else about them and what they make with people.

Most SM players that I know are arrogant, self-righteous, "don't hate on my OP power armoured boys" people who are so full of themselves, that they're actualy acknowledge that their faction is OP, while also insulting other players ("You play Tyranids? How does it feel to lose all the time?").

Please note that I don't think all the SM players are like that. Because I know they aren't, just some of them.

Then there are the rules. Marines get exclusive psyker powers. Marines get incredible supplements (Clan Raukaan) with top-tier, outright broken stuff, like the Gorgon Chain. Marines get formations from hell. Marines get everything.

The rest of the factions get diddly squat, with the expection of Eldar and Tau, and even these two armies can't even get close to the ammount of broken bullcrap that the current Marines represent with their access to ridicolous ammount of strong cover saves and the ever present FNP.

Armies like the Dark Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard - what do they have? IG has Steel Host which, while really good, can be easily countered, since we are talking about tanks. They are big, easy targets, easily countered by a squad of Assault Marines for example. And guess what? The SM have a formation that allow their AM to charge after deepstrike. How many other factions have access to something similar? Yeah...

The ammount of love, care and blatant favortism that GW put into Space Marines, while completely neglecting other armies, is truly staggering and disgusting. I honestly feel like a second category gamer for sticking to my Imperial Guard. I see how my Tyranid-playing friend gets whacked time after time by power armoured armies and there's not a thing that he can do to stop them. Before you ask - we are both experienced players, with many games behind us. Problem is, when playing against an outright broken army experience dosen't do jack.

Welcome to the times of legal aimbot in WH40K. Because that's what current SM are like. Broken, overpowered, unfair and shown so much favortism that other armies can basically turn around and go home.

I'd like CSM and the Xenos 'bad guys' to get some support.

Angels of Death was a wrong move IMHO.

zerosignal wrote:
I'd like CSM and the Xenos 'bad guys' to get some support.

Angels of Death was a wrong move IMHO.

Oh my god, thank you. As soon as I saw that supplement released, I just thought "Are you fluxing kidding me?"

Supposed "Good Guys" in 40k:

SM, IG, SoB, Ad Mech, IK, Officio Assassinorum, Tau, Eldar

Supposed "Bad Guys" in 40k:

CSM, Tyranids, Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Orks

Good Guys Good Codexes: 6

Bad Guys Good Codexes: 2

Why the obvious favoritism for good guys in the Grim Darkness?

30k is literally only about Space Marines can 30k players stop trying to deny this?

The Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum are a total sideshow. 30k is about epic Primarchs and SM on SM combat.

Agreed on Angels of Death. It should not have existed, as well as half of the new Formations GW has released for SM. I have no real issue with the standard SM codex - some parts of it are VERY powerful (free transports and Grav are the main offenders) but aside from that, it's not a terrible codex.

The real reason SM are disliked is because of that impetus on their fluff, and it's something that needs to be addressed. IG should have far more to them, regarding unique formations and factions, as well as Chaos. Tau and Eldar are in a good place, I think.
Orks, Dark Eldar, CSM and (somewhat) IG need that attention now.

There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.

And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.

Nothing wrong apart from the fact SM get more rules despite not needing anything while most other armies still need updating.

DorianGray wrote:
30k is literally only about Space Marines can 30k players stop trying to deny this?

The Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum are a total sideshow. 30k is about epic Primarchs and SM on SM combat.

The last HH event / tournament I was at my Iron Hands fought Word Bearers once, Solar Auxilia once and Mechanicum twice. I also have Mechanicum and Imperial Army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.

And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.

While its fine if you don't see anything wrong with AoD, assuming its because of "jealousy" is rather condescending and not good for discussion The psychic powers in the supplement are for many the main sticking point as it feels both abusive in terms of gameplay as well as giving more power to the haves and ignoring the have nots. I personal think its great to have "Decurions" for each main chapter but so would having that level of variety for CSMs, Guard, Orks, etc who are incredibly diverse and also incredibly lacking in their current selection of viable playstyles.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.

And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.

Nothing wrong with AoD itself, other than many codexes have nowhere near the same treatment, and AFAIK, SoB don't even HAVE Formations.

The base Formations in it, AFAIK, can be used by all Chapters, and has FAR more Relics than any other faction. I'm disregarding the fact that UM and BT receive less from the book than the other Chapters, and simply saying then that the majority of Chapters in C:SM are vastly privileged compared to the rest of 40k.

Vastly more Formations, creating more play opportunities.
More access to psychic powers.
More opportunity of Warlord Traits (all the BRB Traits, plus two from C:SM) and customisability with Relics (two Relic tables to pick from)

Looking at all of that which AoD has added, can you tell me that that's not unfair compared to CSM or Orks? Unless that's just jealousy and they should get over having less stuff?

tough for me to judge because my community is loaded with wallet equipped leviathan class gamers. guys with wallets so fat they can afford to be there for pretty much every release and buy product. omitting brand new players guys have 3, 4, sometimes more armies fully eqipped, fully kitted. so that when a new codex is released as an example the tables are full of that army. guys just own everything beyond new stuff and happily turn over money for it.

one guy looking for something to buy because hes been playing that land and has the wallet to simply own everything his heart desires bought a five set of knights on a whim, bought out half my gw stores boxed counter supply and has set to doing them until enough stuff has accumulated on the shelf that he wants to buy in order to buy them up and give him more work.

its pretty damn fething intense and scarces away a lot of the new blood, at the 30th anniversary space marine launch i got to touch base with a lot of the newer players in my local area and they stick to their basements and the smaller stores that dont actually sell 40k or gw at all in many cases but have table space enough for a game.

so my verdict at least locally is that no there are exactly enough of them, but more isnt discouraged because there isnt enough new meat braving the storm and coming to the bigger stores and events

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the Angel Of Death supplement outside of the sheer jealousy some people feel. Get the hell over it. As if everyone is using those formations as opposed to the regular Gladius. All it really did is provide a Warlord Trait table and Relics for those chapters.

And no, 30k isn't just Marines. They're the main focus, but the amount of people using regular humans and Mechanicus is easily almost half. There's an appeal of better balance there.

Nothing wrong with AoD itself, other than many codexes have nowhere near the same treatment, and AFAIK, SoB don't even HAVE Formations.

The base Formations in it, AFAIK, can be used by all Chapters, and has FAR more Relics than any other faction. I'm disregarding the fact that UM and BT receive less from the book than the other Chapters, and simply saying then that the majority of Chapters in C:SM are vastly privileged compared to the rest of 40k.

Vastly more Formations, creating more play opportunities.
More access to psychic powers.
More opportunity of Warlord Traits (all the BRB Traits, plus two from C:SM) and customisability with Relics (two Relic tables to pick from)

Looking at all of that which AoD has added, can you tell me that that's not unfair compared to CSM or Orks? Unless that's just jealousy and they should get over having less stuff?

It isn't unfair, because ignoring AoD entirely the Ork and CSM codices are THAT gakky. AoD didn't change that. Nothing is going to be used anyway outside the relics and Skyhammer.

At the apex of our FLGS's Thursday night league, which was end of 6th, early 7th, we played 2000 pts and had around 25 players.

2 Eldar
1 Dark Eldar
7 Space Marine (including DA, GK, SW, BA)
2 Chaos
2 Ork
4 SoB
3 IG
2 Necrons
2 Tau
2 Nids
2 Demons

Now, there's about 5 guys who bring different ITC tourney lists each week. Almost every single army has a knight. There is no league.

Sad times.

I dont really mind in all fairness, they are the poster boy, I just wish other armies got the same amount or even half as much love in their stories, I would dig it if my necrons had some really cool stories.

As for my local area, every seems to be either all about eldar or SM, the marine players here seem to not care about their models though, just throwing them back into the open box they came in just clanking them about

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
I dont really mind in all fairness, they are the poster boy, I just wish other armies got the same amount or even half as much love in their stories, I would dig it if my necrons had some really cool stories.

My partner plays The Rebellion of Ten Thousand Wings, a canoptek hive mind that took over its Tomb World. I like to imagine their spyders are amiable and philosophical, like the Tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell. And I'm trying to persuade it to buy one of the giant metal centipedes as a centrepiece model.

I can't think of any canon Necron stories that are that cool, unfortunately. GW seems to get relatively creative when it comes to Space Marine chapter backgrounds, but us non-humans get like a paragraph or two per Tomb / Craft / Sept World. And then the Tau septs they focused on for Warzone Damocles were the most boring and generic ones, instead of intriguing ones like N'dras.

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
As for my local area, every seems to be either all about eldar or SM, the marine players here seem to not care about their models though, just throwing them back into the open box they came in just clanking them about

The guy I knew who kept his Dark Angels in a cardboard box did so because of his budget, and because the plastic models could apparently stand up to that treatment. Of course, he played Dark Angels in the first place because the DV starter was all he could afford.

Speaking of which, you know what I'd like to see? Complete faction starter kits, like Privateer makes for Warmahordes now. Just bump the price of a Start Collecting! box up to $99 USD and toss in a softcover rulebook, DV-style tutorial guide, and dice / templates / measuring sticks. That'd help with the "too many Space Marines" situation by giving new players multiple entry points. As it is, the starter boxes are really only useful if you already have the stuff you need to play 40k, which you probably got from a 2-player set which has Space Marines in it.

Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

WEEP for the ork players!

WAIL for the deldar!

MOAN for the guardsmen!

Marines have too much different equipment for chapters of 1000 guys.

I got into 40k because of SM (LotD). But fell in Love with Tau when they came out. After years away I came back and tried to play Tua when they were absolute garbage. Picked up SM again and found a successor chapter I really liked. Kept buying SM stuff, until I wanted more colors of SM.

Then Tau took a turn for the worse and I sold my whole army. (I do NOT like the direction GW took Tau)

I also bought a Tyranid army but it is very low on the priority list as they are pants on head bad, just like my pre-6th edition Tau.

So I paint various colors of SM now. Because they get great model and fluff support.

The only way to get more people to play something other than SM is give the other factions as much support as the Poster Boys. Tau have taken off since their update because they got new models people wanted with powerful rules.

Despite what GW and some people say, the majority of people spend money on the GAME. If a faction isn't good in the game it doesn't get support from the fans and then doesn't get support from GW (because they can't understand why an all metal army that hasn't had a rules update in 10 years isn't 'popular' ).

 Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

The Galdius and Battle Company formations that the Space Marines got to let them essentially have 500+ points worth of free Rhinos and stuff was pretty broken and tournament winning...

There was and still IS a LOT OF NERF-RAGE about that.

Also Tac Marine spam is not fun to play against or with. Read some battle reports at tournaments and literally top armies could not kill Tac Marines fast enough to win despite their kill to loss ratio being 10-1. Space Marines being spammed and played like Orks is stupid.

DorianGray wrote:
The Galdius and Battle Company formations that the Space Marines got to let them essentially have 500+ points worth of free Rhinos and stuff was pretty broken and tournament winning...

There was and still IS a LOT OF NERF-RAGE about that.

Also Tac Marine spam is not fun to play against or with. Read some battle reports at tournaments and literally top armies could not kill Tac Marines fast enough to win despite their kill to loss ratio being 10-1. Space Marines being spammed and played like Orks is stupid.

I agree.

 Jewelfox wrote:

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
I dont really mind in all fairness, they are the poster boy, I just wish other armies got the same amount or even half as much love in their stories, I would dig it if my necrons had some really cool stories.

My partner plays The Rebellion of Ten Thousand Wings, a canoptek hive mind that took over its Tomb World. I like to imagine their spyders are amiable and philosophical, like the Tachikoma from Ghost in the Shell. And I'm trying to persuade it to buy one of the giant metal centipedes as a centrepiece model.

I can't think of any canon Necron stories that are that cool, unfortunately. GW seems to get relatively creative when it comes to Space Marine chapter backgrounds, but us non-humans get like a paragraph or two per Tomb / Craft / Sept World. And then the Tau septs they focused on for Warzone Damocles were the most boring and generic ones, instead of intriguing ones like N'dras.

I love the canoptek sentinal and I cant think of the other one off the top of my head, but the centipede ones, Ill be getting those eventually for my force, but its hard to forge a narrative when the narrative of your army is, they get reborn, they are evil,they kill stuff, eradicate, space marine victory the end.

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
As for my local area, every seems to be either all about eldar or SM, the marine players here seem to not care about their models though, just throwing them back into the open box they came in just clanking them about

 Jewelfox wrote:
The guy I knew who kept his Dark Angels in a cardboard box did so because of his budget, and because the plastic models could apparently stand up to that treatment. Of course, he played Dark Angels in the first place because the DV starter was all he could afford.

I understand him not being able to afford things for the army, but surely that should mean you would want take better care of them, throwing them from a good 2 feet to the box and you cant afford to pick up replacements for broken ones seems kinda seems more expensive, unless you dont care that your librarians sword is somewhere in you flgs floor.

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.

And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.

And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.

You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.

I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SM TFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?

EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.

Evidently he also thinks BA are good vs IG.

This is not a rant against power levels of codexes but the lack of variety in games due to too many people playing space marines.

Even fellow Space Marine players have to recognize that it get boring when more than 50% of games are against other 3+ save power armour opponents.

Not referring to your original post Mr Gray. You don't seem to be an astartes fan, but my last post was about the toxic hatred certain members have for marine PLAYERS.

Also, if you go back a few pages in my original post you'll see I totally agree with you on the monotony of playing power armor way too often.