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2016/07/27 20:37:56
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
Honestly, complaining there's too much focus on Marines is like complaining Star Trek focuses too much on the Federation.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Honestly, complaining there's too much focus on Marines is like complaining Star Trek focuses too much on the Federation.
Or Star Wars focuses too much on the Rebels.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
2016/07/27 20:47:55
Subject: Re:Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
If there's too many Marine players and people complain that it gets stale when you just face 3+ saves, how would it get better by having LESS variation among the Marines?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/07/27 21:38:56
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
The main problem def. is there are way too many space marine players. It drives everything and all the other problems
Sure the Space Marines can got all the spotlight in the setting and the STORY but they shouldn't get a ridiculous amount of books and releases in the ACTUAL gameplay.
2016/07/27 22:32:07
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
But 40K is essentially an action RPG at this point, the two are heavily interlinked.
Equally, people being drawn into the game are likely to be drawn in by the stuff that's most prominent in the art and fluff, as well as what's seen most often in the table.
So you've got a cycle only GW can really break, and they're not going to because there's no financial incentive to do so.
But it's wrong to lay blame for this at the feet of the players, and the presence of a lot of Space Marines isn't what makes the games current incarnation gak.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
2016/07/27 23:51:45
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
But it's okay for Tau to table them in 3 turns? Okay, sure.
2016/07/27 23:53:59
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
But it's okay for Tau to table them in 3 turns? Okay, sure.
Tau table who? And no, it's not okay. Unlike some people I could mention, I'm at least consistent on my views.
2016/07/27 23:58:16
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
Yes. WAY too many mureen players, not much fun when everyone is playing the same cookie cutter army. (da, sw ba are excluded, they are reasonably unique)
2016/07/28 00:07:46
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
cosmicsoybean wrote: Yes. WAY too many mureen players, not much fun when everyone is playing the same cookie cutter army. (da, sw ba are excluded, they are reasonably unique)
Martel732 wrote: Primarily DA and BA. But a marine list that tries to use actual marines against Tau is just taking lambs to the slaughter.
I gotten 1600 pts of BA into the Tau deployment zone before and still lost because they crippled my list in one turn of shooting.
There's a reason why I stated C:SM, rather than just SM.
So you did. GW's solution for marines is to turn them into a deathstar or a swarm list. I don't see either of those in the fluff anywhere. Maybe a fluff master could enlighten us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 00:10:01
2016/07/28 00:11:35
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
Conversely, BA can perform exactly ZERO of the things claimed in their fluff. None. I guess the vanilla marines can't either without Gladius or invisible deathstars. I've calculated that 8 WKs could wipe out the entire chapter as presented in the fluff.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/28 00:16:12
2016/07/28 00:16:34
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
We should rate codexes based on RoA and fluff accuracy.
They've got several victories against power armies for starters. They are talked about being "peerless warriors", but are actually punched out by almost every other marine chapter.
BA would have to be one of the worst.
Nids: suck on tabletop, but in a realistic scenario, you'd have to fight four Nids lists in a row to represent their numbers.
DE: hit and run attacks on civilians
Orks: much like Nids above
BA: 1000 dudes who lose 50 guys at a time to one turn of Tau shooting. Totally legit. Let me tell you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 00:20:54
2016/07/28 00:20:33
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
Just as the aircraft carrier put the battleship out of business, the Tau invention of the ion accelerator would mean any chapter deployed against Tau would run through their 1000 dudes in the first 12 hours of combat. BA just have the worst of it since we don't even have invisibility to save us.
2016/07/28 03:24:29
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
I don't think anyone's said that. Mostly we've just been sharing experiences of dealing with bad SM players, and noting that a consistent factor is their sense of entitlement.
In my personal experience, I posted a thread about how to help people have fun while playing against the Tau I owned at the time. In response, several people basically told me to burn my models and that Tau should not be a thing. That's not a complaint about how OP something is, it's visceral hatred for something based on the fact that it exists. Which is basically what SM are fuelled by, in the fluff, and is why I lamented SM players getting a little too in-character.
I don't think all SM players are like that, and I've had only good experiences playing against DA and GK players (I've never played against C:SM). I think that feeling entitled to getting the lion's share of attention does warp how SM players perceive balance issues and the "legitimacy" of other factions, though, and that it takes effort to become self-aware enough to realize that. Or else just the kind of personality that's mellow enough to be "live and let live" towards everyone else, despite playing as genocidal human supremacists.
... does anyone remember when SM were the bad guys, and the Imperium was an oppressive state built on a foundation of lies?
2016/07/28 14:45:33
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.
I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SMTFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?
EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.
Well the funny thing is that I did try adapting my strategy. Multiple deep striking units to grab objectives with a Macro cannon manned by Veterans as my back bench support and a couple of Exterminators for support. Allied with Inquisition for Servo Skulls and Marines for Librarian and DS terminators.
Guess how well it went?
Well, here is a hint: 4 to 18. Not in my favour. And I had nothing barring my Macro Cannon and its garrison left alive.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2016/07/28 15:11:04
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.
I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SMTFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?
EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.
Well the funny thing is that I did try adapting my strategy. Multiple deep striking units to grab objectives with a Macro cannon manned by Veterans as my back bench support and a couple of Exterminators for support. Allied with Inquisition for Servo Skulls and Marines for Librarian and DS terminators.
Guess how well it went?
Well, here is a hint: 4 to 18. Not in my favour. And I had nothing barring my Macro Cannon and its garrison left alive.
You complain about losing to DA and BA with IG. You don't understand how to fight marines at all.
2016/07/28 15:23:48
Subject: Re:Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
In a galaxy where they are outnumbered million military personnel to one if not more, every other army on the table is loyalist space marine. In the past it was people looking for the easy win, I doubt that has changed even with Demon and Eldar superiority in 7th. just my opinion.
ADDED LATER
I saw a few post stating "Sense of Entitlement" I'd agree in 6th ed and until the new codex came out in 7th boy were the majority of SM players full of complaints about how they should be on top dogs....cause SM are supposed to be ultra elite and the what not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 15:29:43
22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+
2016/07/28 15:24:52
Subject: Re:Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: In a galaxy where they are outnumbered million military personnel to one if not more, every other army on the table is loyalist space marine. In the past it was people looking for the easy win, I doubt that has changed even with Demon and Eldar superiority in 7th. just my opinion.
I agree this is stupid. I picked BA in 1993 because no one in my group was using them. And I though they were cool. Jokes on me, I guess.
2016/07/28 15:31:05
Subject: Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
Hawky wrote:The main problem isn't amount of SM players. The main problem is that GW is neglecting and overlooking other factions because of Space Marines.
This.
GW loves Space Marines to the near exclusion of all else and this is resulting in them getting all the toys whilst other factions are being left behind with 6th edition codexs, many of which where just half arsed bashes of the older codex with a few bits changed up.
Quite simply put: We other factions feel left out. Where are our toys.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.
Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.
This a thousand times over. The amount of times I have been told that my Imperial Guard are over powered is laughable, even when the Marine player won. Leman Russ tanks are 'OP' because their cannons can murder blobs of marines left out in the open and their armour is good, the fact that they did very little for their cost and where murdered by DS infantry and Laspreds was besides the point.
Guard shouldnt be able to spam tanks, even though we have the same number on the field.
FRFSRF is OP.... even though only a couple of marines where killed by the hundred or so shots.
The list goes on.....
Now I know that it may seem like we are generalising, but the Marine player contingent does seem to have a higher proportion of these player types.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
?? Several people said that the new SM powers were OP, and house ruled CSM should get access to them as well.
You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.
When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.
I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
And Eldar and Tau don't? Good to know only SM players are TFG.
You're a regular. You should know by now that MoO has one hell of an Axe to grind against marine players. He refuses to adapt his (ineffective ) guard strategy and because of this he gets stomped by marines on the regular. For some reason he sees the marines being "crazy OP" as the reason for the tabletop troubles instead of his inability to adapt to the meta. For some even stranger reason in his eyes this makes all marine players terrible people.
I've played hundreds of games on 3 continents in dozens of stores. Of all that play-time (over the course of almost 16 years) I've met MAYBE 9 or 10 unsavory Marine players. Only 2 of whom I would flat out refuse to play again. So that begs the question : If there are so many C:SMTFGs, why are they all congregating at 2 or 3 stores?
EDIT: This is not to say that there isn't a ridiculous despairity in power levels between IG and C:SM or that some of the marine stuff *cough* Fist of Medusa/Chain *cough* because there is.
Well the funny thing is that I did try adapting my strategy. Multiple deep striking units to grab objectives with a Macro cannon manned by Veterans as my back bench support and a couple of Exterminators for support. Allied with Inquisition for Servo Skulls and Marines for Librarian and DS terminators.
Guess how well it went?
Well, here is a hint: 4 to 18. Not in my favour. And I had nothing barring my Macro Cannon and its garrison left alive.
You complain about losing to DA and BA with IG. You don't understand how to fight marines at all.
Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 15:32:03
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2016/07/28 15:34:03
Subject: Re:Is 40k too Space Marine centric? Do too many people play Space Marines?
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: In a galaxy where they are outnumbered million military personnel to one if not more, every other army on the table is loyalist space marine. In the past it was people looking for the easy win, I doubt that has changed even with Demon and Eldar superiority in 7th. just my opinion.
I agree this is stupid. I picked BA in 1993 because no one in my group was using them. And I though they were cool. Jokes on me, I guess.
I'm sure you were not alone in buying SM for aesthetic reasons, I probably should have said most did it for the easy win, not implied all.
22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+
Neutran Panzergrenadiers, 
Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, 
Order of the Silver Hand
1850 pts
