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Are these Phoenix Lords Balanced?
Only the Warp Spider PL is balanced
Only the Shining Spear PL is balanced
Both of the Phoenix Lords are balanced (would play with)
Neither of the Pheonix Lords are balanced

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Made in ca
Swift Swooping Hawk





Oklahoma

Warp Spider Phoenix Lord
WS:7 BS:7 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:7 A:4 Ld:10

Special Rules:

Way-finder of the Warp: The Phoenix lord may not be the target of the model lost during the warpjump or flickerjump move. The phoenix lord and his squad may re-roll 1 die when determining distance for warp jump generator and flickerjump moves. When arriving from deep strike the phoenix lord and his squad only scatter 1D6.



Ethereal Master: The Phoenix lord is able to enter and leave combat at a whim. The phoenix lord has a 5+ Invulnerable save


Ancient Doom
Fearless
Battle Focus
Eternal Warrior
Fleet
Rampage
Adamantium Will

Wargear:

Pheonix lord armour
Warp Jump Generator
TL Spinneret Rifle

Remnant of Glory:

Warpblades: Counts as 2 weapons and grants +1 attack. The blades existence flickers between the warp and the mortal realm allowing it to materialize inside any armour.
Range: -
Str: -
Ap: 3
Special Rules: Melee, Ethereal
Ethereal: A roll of a 6 to wound always causes a wound.

------215pts---



********************************************

Drastanta, Tempest of Starlight -- Shining Spear Phoenix Lord

WS:7 BS:7 S:4 T:4(5) W:3 I:7 A:4 Ld:10

Special Rules:

Fearless
Aerobatic Grace: A model with this rule has a 4+ cover save unless it remained stationary in it previous movement phase.
Eternal Warrior
Skilled Rider
Expert Hunter
Ancient Doom
Hit and Run

Tempest of Light: The phoenix lord and his squad of shining spears gain Rage and cannot be the target of Overwatch.

From the Fires of Asur: The Phoenix lord has a 5+ invulnerable save

Wargear:

Phoenix Lord Armour
Eldar Jetbike
Power Sword

Remnant of Glory:

The Celestial Lance:

Range: 6'' ... S:8 ... Ap:2 ... Assault 1, Lance, Spirit Shatter

Range: - ... S: 8/user ... Ap: 2/4 ... Melee,Lance, Spirit Shatter, Impact

Impact: The first value is used for the first round of assault and the 2nd value is used for all other rounds

Spirit Shatter: Any to wound roll of a 6 causes D3 wounds, and when a character or monstrous creature is reduced to 0 wounds during a turn in which the wielder charges, centre a large blast marker over the victim before removing the model as a casualty. All enemy models under the blast marker suffer a single hit with a strength equal to the victim's toughness characteristic.

-----230pts----

****************************************
Let me know if you guys think these are balanced or if they're a little too overkill. Also if you have ideas for names and background post 'em up!

This message was edited 42 times. Last update was at 2016/08/06 05:58:15


Craftworlds Eldar: 8500
Dark Eldar: 1000
Harlequins: 1000
Raven Guard: 1500
Tyranids: 1500
 
   
Made in au
Screaming Shining Spear





Western Australia

The lance of the Shining spear phoenix lord is already listed in the Iyanden book FYI

For gaming, hobby and events in Perth, Western Australia - https://objectivesecured.com.au 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

Rage and Furious charge doesn't make any sense on the Warp Spider PL, they're explicitly a short range shooty unit not a close combat unit, even if all the Phoenix Lords are good at close combat.

Why give the Shinning Spear PL Expert Rider, +1 to jink (a natural 2+ jink is a bit much isn't it?) and a 3+ cover when they move? The last one at least is completely redundant since you've given him two separate cover saves. Still no Hit and Run, the biggest weakness of Shinning Spears and the reason why no one ever runs them.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Aerobatic Art is a bit useless, as +1 Jink is a 3+ cover save, making the 3+ cover save you also get a bit pointless. Yes you can get the 3+ without having to Jink, but then what's the point of having a Jink bonus?
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Northern CO

They already have Skilled Rider, so they could Jink for a 2+.

However, the lack of Hit & Run is what kills it for me on the Shining Spears. That's the major complaint I have with them currently. The Exarch used to grant it, but now there's no useful way to do so.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Agreed, one of the rules a Shining spear PL HAS to have is Hit & Run. The lack of H&R makes him worthless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/26 14:50:20


   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Warp Spider one seems boring and I don't see why it has FnPor the Adrenaline thing as no part of that seems to link to Warp Spiders.

Spear Lord needs Hit and Run, should be T5 for consistency and should use the weapon we already have minus team killing effects.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I don't think I'd ever use the adrenaline burst, since I've assaulted exactly one time with my spiders, but other than that, I would run him.
   
Made in ca
Swift Swooping Hawk





Oklahoma

Hey guys thanks for all of the quick replies! I took all of what you said into account and changed out some of the rules.

-- I meant to have hit and run on the Shinging spear PL but forgot to put it so its up there now.
-- I changed the Nova lance to the celestial lance that a couple of you mentioned, but I modified the rules a little bit to make it deal a little more damage and keep up with meta.

-- I completely changed the adrenaline burst ability on the Warp Spider PL since you guys brought up a very good point - that warp spiders don't assault very much. I decided to make adrenaline burst all about movement so you could use that movement for shooting and assault. Instead of giving rage to the whole squad i just gave rage to the Warp Spider PL himself. Also I've been thinking about an alternate special rule to use instead of adrenaline burst, I posted it up top so let me know which one you think is better.

-- The Warp Spider PL now has 2 death spinners instead of a TL Spinneret (Felt more appropriate)

Craftworlds Eldar: 8500
Dark Eldar: 1000
Harlequins: 1000
Raven Guard: 1500
Tyranids: 1500
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Why is Drastatanta T4(5)? Seems weird.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Northern CO

Considerably better, I think.

Would it be overkill to give Drastanta the ability to fire the Celestial Lance and his bike's twin-linked shuriken catapult?

Also, is Drastanta intended to be dual-wielding? I ask because other Shining Spears do have a shuriken pistol in addition to their lance.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




jade_angel wrote:
Considerably better, I think.

Would it be overkill to give Drastanta the ability to fire the Celestial Lance and his bike's twin-linked shuriken catapult?

Also, is Drastanta intended to be dual-wielding? I ask because other Shining Spears do have a shuriken pistol in addition to their lance.

I'm pretty sure they don't.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission



Northern CO

Huh, sure enough. Oops.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

pm713 wrote:
jade_angel wrote:
Considerably better, I think.

Would it be overkill to give Drastanta the ability to fire the Celestial Lance and his bike's twin-linked shuriken catapult?

Also, is Drastanta intended to be dual-wielding? I ask because other Shining Spears do have a shuriken pistol in addition to their lance.

I'm pretty sure they don't.

Yeah, they do not have pistols. If Spears had pistols and H & R, they would be a viable unit instead of the 1-turn suicide unit that they are.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Galef wrote:
pm713 wrote:
jade_angel wrote:
Considerably better, I think.

Would it be overkill to give Drastanta the ability to fire the Celestial Lance and his bike's twin-linked shuriken catapult?

Also, is Drastanta intended to be dual-wielding? I ask because other Shining Spears do have a shuriken pistol in addition to their lance.

I'm pretty sure they don't.

Yeah, they do not have pistols. If Spears had pistols and H & R, they would be a viable unit instead of the 1-turn suicide unit that they are.

I was toying with the idea of making a thread about them. Even thought about adding power swords for the rage that would bring even though they wouldn't add anything beyond an attack but I think cc weapons are a decent thing to add. Along with H&R.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

I like them both quite a bit (though you still haven't given Drastanta Hit and Run). I still think the Warp Spider Phoenix Lord is best with Adrenaline Surge instead of Ethereal, which only seems to give him a 4+ invuln (not that I'm complaining too much, all of the Phoenix Lords other than Asurman need an Invuln) which doesn't fit the description. Could do with a better gun as well, instead of an Assault 4 Death Spinner, how about a special Assault 2 Spinnerett Rifle with 24" range, kind of matches the other Phoenix Lords of having an uprated version of the Exarch's special weapon.
   
Made in ca
Swift Swooping Hawk





Oklahoma

 Imateria wrote:
I like them both quite a bit (though you still haven't given Drastanta Hit and Run). I still think the Warp Spider Phoenix Lord is best with Adrenaline Surge instead of Ethereal, which only seems to give him a 4+ invuln (not that I'm complaining too much, all of the Phoenix Lords other than Asurman need an Invuln) which doesn't fit the description. Could do with a better gun as well, instead of an Assault 4 Death Spinner, how about a special Assault 2 Spinnerett Rifle with 24" range, kind of matches the other Phoenix Lords of having an uprated version of the Exarch's special weapon.


I highlighted the special rule that gives him and the shinging spears hit and run.

Wouldn't an assault 2 spinnerett rifle and the warpblades be a little overkill?

Craftworlds Eldar: 8500
Dark Eldar: 1000
Harlequins: 1000
Raven Guard: 1500
Tyranids: 1500
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




It's a Phoenix Lord. There is no overkill. Particularly when you don't have an invul.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Helvost wrote:
 Imateria wrote:
I like them both quite a bit (though you still haven't given Drastanta Hit and Run). I still think the Warp Spider Phoenix Lord is best with Adrenaline Surge instead of Ethereal, which only seems to give him a 4+ invuln (not that I'm complaining too much, all of the Phoenix Lords other than Asurman need an Invuln) which doesn't fit the description. Could do with a better gun as well, instead of an Assault 4 Death Spinner, how about a special Assault 2 Spinnerett Rifle with 24" range, kind of matches the other Phoenix Lords of having an uprated version of the Exarch's special weapon.


I highlighted the special rule that gives him and the shinging spears hit and run.

Wouldn't an assault 2 spinnerett rifle and the warpblades be a little overkill?

No, have you seen the guns Irilyth, Maugun Ra and Fuegan are carrying?

Also, only one model in a unit needs Hit and Run for them all to get it, it would be better to list Hit and Run unde rhis special rules so people can tell what he's got at a glance, most people don't seem to like the special rules that just grant a straight up USR.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 11:13:07


 
   
Made in ca
Swift Swooping Hawk





Oklahoma

Update: Switch Drastanta's Hit and Run to just the basic USR.

-- Gave Drastanta a 4+ Invuln save

-- Gave the Warp Spider PL a 5+ Invuln save

Do you think the Warp Spider PL is still balanced with both adrenaline burst, a 5+ invuln save, and FNP?

Craftworlds Eldar: 8500
Dark Eldar: 1000
Harlequins: 1000
Raven Guard: 1500
Tyranids: 1500
 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

FnP might be a bit much, but then again at 240pts he'd be the most expensive Phoenix Lord I think.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Helvost wrote:
Warp Spider Phoenix Lord
WS:7 BS:7 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:7 A:4 Ld:10

Special Rules:

Way-finder of the Warp: The phoenix lord and his squad may re-roll 1 die when determining distance for warp jump generator and flickerjump moves. When arriving from deep strike the phoenix lord and his squad only scatter 1D6.

Adrenaline Burst: The phoenix lord may activate this ability once per game during the movement phase. Once activated, the phoenix lord and his squad may perform a Warp Jump move regardless of whether they flickerjumped during the enemy player's turn. In addition, add +1'' to all of the squad's movements for that turn including Movement(warp jump), Battlefocus, Jet pack, or assault moves.

Both??


Ethereal Master: The Phoenix lord is able to enter and leave combat at a whim. The phoenix lord has a 5+ Invulnerable save


Ancient Doom
Feel No Pain (5+)
Fearless
Battle Focus
Eternal Warrior
Fleet
Rage

Wargear:

Pheonix lord armour
Warp Jump Generator
Double Death Spinner (Counts as death spinner with Assault 4)

Remnant of Glory:

Warpblades: Counts as 2 weapons and grants +1 attack. The blades existence flickers between the warp and the mortal realm allowing it to materialize inside any armour.
Range: -
Str: -
Ap: 2
Transdimensional: A to wound roll of a 6 always wounds and inflicts Instant Death.

------240pts---



********************************************

Drastanta, Tempest of Starlight -- Shining Spear Phoenix Lord

WS:7 BS:7 S:4 T:4(5) W:3 I:7 A:4 Ld:10

Special Rules:

Fearless
Aerobatic Grace: A model with this rule has a 4+ cover save unless it remained stationary in it previous movement phase.
Eternal Warrior
Skilled Rider
Expert Hunter
Ancient Doom
Hit and Run

Tempest of Light: The phoenix lord and his squad of shining spears gain Rage and cannot be the target of Overwatch.

From the Fires of Asur: The Phoenix lord has a 4+ invulnerable save

Wargear:

Phoenix Lord Armour
Eldar Jetbike

Remnant of Glory:

The Celestial Lance:

Range: 6'' ... S:8 ... Ap:2 ... Assault 1, Lance, Spirit Shatter

Range: - ... S: 8/6 ... Ap: 2/3 ... Melee,Lance, Spirit Shatter, Impact

Impact: The first value is used for the first round of assault and the 2nd value is used for all other rounds

Spirit Shatter: Any to wound roll of a 6 causes D3 wounds, and when a character or monstrous creature is reduced to 0 wounds during a turn in which the wielder charges, centre a large blast marker over the victim before removing the model as a casualty. All enemy models under the blast marker suffer a single hit with a strength equal to the victim's toughness characteristic.

-----220pts----

****************************************
Let me know if you guys think these are balanced or if they're a little too overkill. Also if you have ideas for names and background post 'em up!


These feel a little kitchen-sinky to me. I'd try to drop a couple things and narrow down the unique mechanics of each character. Identify who this unit is and why you'd take them. Let's start with the warp spider.

Their gun isn't all that impressive considering how many points you pay for the model. you'd get the same results out of a pair of warp spiders for a fraction of the points. Which is fine. Shooting isn't necessarily this phoenix lord's thing. So then what is? The mobility special rules are nice, letting you land on target and move a bit faster more often. That said, I'm not entirely sure warp spiders need even more mobility. Consider spiders are kind of an annoying unit to face already, taking away the downside of flicker jumping and making them even more mobile might not be a welcome rule for your opponent. The melee weapons are cool, but I'd consider making them AP3 (in-line with standard power blades). The phoenix lord of jumping around and shooting webs at people probably doesn't need to be carving up terminator armor.

Between Adrenaline Rush and Ethereal Master, I'd go for the latter. Adrenaline Rush is more complicated and takes away the downside of an already frustrating rule. Ethereal Master lets me imagine this guy teleporting all over the place mid-combat like Zeratul or Night Crawler.

Feel No Pain feels weirdly out of place. Fuegan has it because he's the angry Wolverine/Raphael of the group and it kind of lets him feel a bit more beefy. Surely the warp spider should be more about jumping out of the way of a bullet than about taking a bullet to the face. or is FNP meant to represent them narrowly escaping harm with micro jumps or something?


Now let's look at Drastanta.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Tempest of Light rule. It feels flavorful for a high-speed jetbike cavalry charge, but shining spears are actually fairly good at surviving overwatch thanks to their armor and their 3+ cover save when they jink. It's probably fine.

From the Fires of Asur feels a bit out of place. Not having an invul save is kind of a formulaic part of the PLs. Even though they'd all benefit greatly from having one, not having one is kind of a unique part of their DNA. That aside, it also threatens to make Drastanta a bit too durable. His bike means he's T5, so most things are wounding him on 5's or 6's already. He'll normally have a 2+ armor save. Adding a 4+ invul onto that means that, even if your opponent does have an AP2 weapon with decent strength in the squad, he's going to halve that weapon's effectiveness. COmbine this with the fact that you've made his non-charging melee better than most melee weapons in our codex, and you end up with a fast, highly durable beast of a fighter that your opponent will have limited ways to deal with. I say drop From the Fires of Asur so that he remains a still-tough beat stick that has to choose his targets carefully and run away when things aren't working out.

Regarding the celestial lance, I like the spirit shatter rule. It fits the spears' role well and potentially adds a little versatility to the unit by giving them a few extra hits against hordes. I'm less fond of the Strength 6/AP3 on rounds that you don't charge part. That's a lot of non-charging killing power for someone who's meant to hit & run out of combat to keep getting the charge for maximum effectiveness. How would you feel about making it a star lance with the spirit shatter rule and then also giving him a power sword? He'd still be a solid combatant after the charge while waiting to H&R out, but now he still has strong motivation to leave combat and charge back in. As is, you'd probably be fine running him solo and simply letting him stay stuck in with an enemy because he wounds MEQs on a 2 and ignores their armor. Which isn't necessarily innately problematic, but it doesn't really fit the "charge-in-charge-out" playstyle. Plus, making him slightly worse allows you to make him less expensive and thus easier to justify fitting into a list.



EDIT:

For the record, my own take on the Warp Spider PL looked something like this:
-Standard exarch powers
-Basically what you did with your power blades, but only AP3, and only in a challenge (makes her less of an unintentional threat against most MCs)
-S6 AP- template weapon with monofilament
-Ability to ignore the "lose a spider to the warp" thing once per game; doesn't alter their mobility, but does represent the PL guiding/rescuing her students.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/29 16:08:38



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Phoenix Lords are meant to be better Exarchs not in line with them. AP2 power blades are fine.

I don't see a huge issue with having the 4++ is. You can already have things worse than that on T5.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





pm713 wrote:
Phoenix Lords are meant to be better Exarchs not in line with them. AP2 power blades are fine.

I don't see a huge issue with having the 4++ is. You can already have things worse than that on T5.


AP2 power blades aren't a huge problem. I just don't see them as being particularly necessary either. The insta-death thing already makes them better than normal power blades (as does the PL's higher strength). Making them AP2 makes the spider lord just a hair below the melee power of Jain Zar against most targets (the Mask doesn't help much because she normally swings first and hits on 3s anyway). That just feels a bit odd considering spiders are a shooty/evasive aspect rather than a punch-you-in-the-face aspect. And making them AP3 would warrant shaving a couple points off, in theory.

The 4++ also isn't a huge deal either, but it does sort of break the PL mold. I don't see a particularly good reason for the spears lord to have an invul when Asurmen is the only other asurya to do so. So there doesn't seem to be a great reason for him to have one unless I'm missing something. On the other hand, I do see a T5, 2+ save model with H&R being very frustrating to face if he also ignores half the wounds that circumvent his armor. Basically, I don't think he really needs one when most phoenix lords don't have one, and his extra toughness combined with an invul might lead to some feel bad moments. But it isn't a huge deal. Again, dropping it or replacing it with something slightly less useful might warrant lowering his points cost slightly, which would be nice.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

Wyldhunt wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Phoenix Lords are meant to be better Exarchs not in line with them. AP2 power blades are fine.

I don't see a huge issue with having the 4++ is. You can already have things worse than that on T5.


AP2 power blades aren't a huge problem. I just don't see them as being particularly necessary either. The insta-death thing already makes them better than normal power blades (as does the PL's higher strength). Making them AP2 makes the spider lord just a hair below the melee power of Jain Zar against most targets (the Mask doesn't help much because she normally swings first and hits on 3s anyway). That just feels a bit odd considering spiders are a shooty/evasive aspect rather than a punch-you-in-the-face aspect. And making them AP3 would warrant shaving a couple points off, in theory.

The 4++ also isn't a huge deal either, but it does sort of break the PL mold. I don't see a particularly good reason for the spears lord to have an invul when Asurmen is the only other asurya to do so. So there doesn't seem to be a great reason for him to have one unless I'm missing something. On the other hand, I do see a T5, 2+ save model with H&R being very frustrating to face if he also ignores half the wounds that circumvent his armor. Basically, I don't think he really needs one when most phoenix lords don't have one, and his extra toughness combined with an invul might lead to some feel bad moments. But it isn't a huge deal. Again, dropping it or replacing it with something slightly less useful might warrant lowering his points cost slightly, which would be nice.

Most of the Phoenix Lords have a decent close combat weapon that boosts their strength and/or gives them AP2, just look at Irylith who is +2S, AP2 on the charge whilst I think Baharroth is the only one stuck with S User, AP3. I think the ID and counts-as-2-close-combat-weapons is a bit much though, both should probably be removed. As for Jain Zar, she's a beatstick because of the -5 to WS and I she dishes out and her ability nulify an enemy models CCW, and of course the Banshee Mask helps as it removes any danger from Overwatch.

As for the Invuln, this isn't 2nd edition anymore, I think it's rather disappointing that Asureman is the only one who has one, I think it would be fair to give Phoenix Lord armour a 5++ across the board.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Wyldhunt wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Phoenix Lords are meant to be better Exarchs not in line with them. AP2 power blades are fine.

I don't see a huge issue with having the 4++ is. You can already have things worse than that on T5.


AP2 power blades aren't a huge problem. I just don't see them as being particularly necessary either. The insta-death thing already makes them better than normal power blades (as does the PL's higher strength). Making them AP2 makes the spider lord just a hair below the melee power of Jain Zar against most targets (the Mask doesn't help much because she normally swings first and hits on 3s anyway). That just feels a bit odd considering spiders are a shooty/evasive aspect rather than a punch-you-in-the-face aspect. And making them AP3 would warrant shaving a couple points off, in theory.

The 4++ also isn't a huge deal either, but it does sort of break the PL mold. I don't see a particularly good reason for the spears lord to have an invul when Asurmen is the only other asurya to do so. So there doesn't seem to be a great reason for him to have one unless I'm missing something. On the other hand, I do see a T5, 2+ save model with H&R being very frustrating to face if he also ignores half the wounds that circumvent his armor. Basically, I don't think he really needs one when most phoenix lords don't have one, and his extra toughness combined with an invul might lead to some feel bad moments. But it isn't a huge deal. Again, dropping it or replacing it with something slightly less useful might warrant lowering his points cost slightly, which would be nice.

I'd keep ap2 lose ID on a 6.

I'm not massively bothered. Either way it's not the end of the world.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Imateria wrote:

Most of the Phoenix Lords have a decent close combat weapon that boosts their strength and/or gives them AP2, just look at Irylith who is +2S, AP2 on the charge whilst I think Baharroth is the only one stuck with S User, AP3. I think the ID and counts-as-2-close-combat-weapons is a bit much though, both should probably be removed. As for Jain Zar, she's a beatstick because of the -5 to WS and I she dishes out and her ability nulify an enemy models CCW, and of course the Banshee Mask helps as it removes any danger from Overwatch.

As for the Invuln, this isn't 2nd edition anymore, I think it's rather disappointing that Asureman is the only one who has one, I think it would be fair to give Phoenix Lord armour a 5++ across the board.



You kind of have to keep the "counts as 2 weapons" part considering they're basically better power blades. It's one on each arm.

Jain Zar's mask certainly has its uses, but -5 to WS only matters if you're facing WS 7 or higher.

I'd be fine with 5++ across, the board, but it seems odd to have this guy be the only one with an invul other than Asurmen.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

Wyldhunt wrote:
 Imateria wrote:

Most of the Phoenix Lords have a decent close combat weapon that boosts their strength and/or gives them AP2, just look at Irylith who is +2S, AP2 on the charge whilst I think Baharroth is the only one stuck with S User, AP3. I think the ID and counts-as-2-close-combat-weapons is a bit much though, both should probably be removed. As for Jain Zar, she's a beatstick because of the -5 to WS and I she dishes out and her ability nulify an enemy models CCW, and of course the Banshee Mask helps as it removes any danger from Overwatch.

As for the Invuln, this isn't 2nd edition anymore, I think it's rather disappointing that Asureman is the only one who has one, I think it would be fair to give Phoenix Lord armour a 5++ across the board.



You kind of have to keep the "counts as 2 weapons" part considering they're basically better power blades. It's one on each arm.

Jain Zar's mask certainly has its uses, but -5 to WS only matters if you're facing WS 7 or higher.

I'd be fine with 5++ across, the board, but it seems odd to have this guy be the only one with an invul other than Asurmen.

If they're AP2 then they're already better Power Blades. As for the -5 to WS, it matters a lot, most models are now hitting her on 5's instead of 4's which is really valuable if she gets into a slugging match with Chapter Masters or a squad of Hammenators.
   
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 Imateria wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 Imateria wrote:

Most of the Phoenix Lords have a decent close combat weapon that boosts their strength and/or gives them AP2, just look at Irylith who is +2S, AP2 on the charge whilst I think Baharroth is the only one stuck with S User, AP3. I think the ID and counts-as-2-close-combat-weapons is a bit much though, both should probably be removed. As for Jain Zar, she's a beatstick because of the -5 to WS and I she dishes out and her ability nulify an enemy models CCW, and of course the Banshee Mask helps as it removes any danger from Overwatch.

As for the Invuln, this isn't 2nd edition anymore, I think it's rather disappointing that Asureman is the only one who has one, I think it would be fair to give Phoenix Lord armour a 5++ across the board.



You kind of have to keep the "counts as 2 weapons" part considering they're basically better power blades. It's one on each arm.

Jain Zar's mask certainly has its uses, but -5 to WS only matters if you're facing WS 7 or higher.

I'd be fine with 5++ across, the board, but it seems odd to have this guy be the only one with an invul other than Asurmen.

If they're AP2 then they're already better Power Blades. As for the -5 to WS, it matters a lot, most models are now hitting her on 5's instead of 4's which is really valuable if she gets into a slugging match with Chapter Masters or a squad of Hammenators.


I'd argue that if they don't behave like power blades, then they aren't really "better power blades" so much as an entirely different weapon. In the same way that a "better power lance" that doesn't perform better on the charge isn't really a power lance.

Fair point about Jain Zar's mask, though my point was mainly that an AP2 set of power blades on a spider lord made him slightly less good at melee than a dedicated melee lord. Considering enemies hitting back on 5s instead of 4s is more of a defensive thing than an offensive one, I think my point still sort of stands. IIRC, the difference between the current version of the spider lord's melee offense and Jain Zar's melee offense mostly just boils down to the shred rule. And the spider lord is actually currently better at meleeing MCs or other high toughness/high-wound enemies than Jain Zar. That just feels a bit odd to me.

But I'm mostly nit picking at this point.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Jain Zar is much better at fighting because the -5 WS and I makes her hit easier and earlier than literally everything. Not so with the Spider.

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