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So with the new rules it is clear that to summon in the beginning of the game you must set aside points in your list to bring new units onto the table (i.e. I build a 1500 point list in a 2k game, saving 500pts to summon with). But what if I build a full 2k list in a 2k game and lose 500 points half way through? Can I then summon units so that I'm back to 2k? I assume I can't summon units that would put me over the maximum points for the game (2k in this example). And would I only be able to summon the units that were already destroyed or can I bring a completely different unit in with the same cost as the one destroyed? It makes it seem like I can only summon out of my reinforcemental points pool and as stuff dies I'm SoL.

No. You can only summon what you have Reinforcement Points available to pay for.

So they took summoning from super OP to relatively worthless? If you do bring 500pts of reinforcement points I assume those are gone as you use them? As in if I summon in 500pts of stuff and it dies the 500pts is just gone?

Yes. You set aside only 500 points so its basically like reserves. I would not recommend attempting to summon something like a bloodthirster that needs a 9 or 10...

Well, I play vampire counts and this completely ruins the theme of undead. The fluff is that the enemy kills hundreds of skeletons just to have them rise again in the same battle, which causes chaos in the enemy lines. With these rules that theme is completely out the window. I don't understand this direction at all

It's basically an overreaction to how broken summoning was before the GHB. Summoning still isn't balanced, the pendulum has just swung the other direction. Don't give up completely, though. There will be changes to the rules, I can assure you.

Ya the new summoning rules do suck but before they go way to out of hand.

your baseline troop, a skeleton is basically the same as most of the baseline troops out there.
how can you balance being able to summon them endlessly?

should I be able to recycle my bloodbound bloodreavers?

no, of course not but since there was no mechanic in place to make a summoning army equal to a nonsummoning army when everything else is even this is how they did it.




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I would also suspect that death rattle troops will get free summons when they're book comes out just like the crypt guys did.
those don't require a summoning pool.

That's not the point. This game obviously isn't meant to be balanced. I was referring to the flavor being destroyed. And the suggestion was that you can never summon beyond the points cap (so if we're playing 2k then you can't summon beyond 2k). Also, you can only attempt each spell once with the new rules, so endless is an extreme exaggeration. 1 unit per turn, after your units start dying, is far from endless. Summoning was ridiculous in end times and at the start of AoS. That's actually why I quit GW WHFB and went to systems that actually have balance. I thought they were going to fix some of their major problems but it seems their rules department is on a tea break because it went from OP to 99.9% worthless. So they failed to balanced and destroyed army fluff/flavor in the process. Great jod, fellas


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I should say one unit of each type per turn, not one unit per turn. But still at a points cap. Wouldn't be endless or OP, just strong

Its not that bad as your banners return models to units and those dont cost points its only if you create a new unit that it costs.

good thing you left then.
I hear kow is doing well, how's their summoning?

The banners are pretty sweet, especially on blood knights. I want to play AoS because the fluff and models are amazing. I just wish they'd get serious with rules. KoWs version of summoning would be the Heal (n) spell that their wizards have. You can't bring on new units but you can heal the old ones. So it perfectly fits the fluff of "you kill my front ranks of skeletons just to have then rise again!" Honestly I wish the VC necros still had something like that. Would perfectly fit their fluff

agreed.

I wish I had my ghb on me. id like to compare the points on a skeleton to other fodder.

how would you feel if they gave deathrattle the same raising abilities flesh eaters got?

honestly I think that is what is going to happen to them. they'll self heal through unit abilities or heroes rather than actual summoning.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
That's not the point. This game obviously isn't meant to be balanced.

Matched Play is most definitely meant to be balanced.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
I wish I had my ghb on me. id like to compare the points on a skeleton to other fodder.

880 points for ten models, the same as Gors, Dreadspears, Freeguild Guards and Skinks.

That sounds good in terms of game balance, but the fluff of a neceomancer doing it is cooler, in my opinion, for skeletons and zombies. It makes more sense for flesh eaters to be self healing. The points have been enough to definitely make me want to play again, I just wish VC had some sort of limited healing or summoning. Oh well, we'll see what they give us in future books

Then don't use the Matched Play rules.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
That's not the point. This game obviously isn't meant to be balanced.

Matched Play is most definitely meant to be balanced.



I know that's what they're going for, but it feels like they put it out just to shut us up. It feels very lazy on their part. What I meant by that comment is that we all know GW cares very little about their competitive environment, if they did then Eldar as they currently are wouldn't exist.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
That's not the point. This game obviously isn't meant to be balanced. I was referring to the flavor being destroyed. And the suggestion was that you can never summon beyond the points cap (so if we're playing 2k then you can't summon beyond 2k).

Matched play is meant to be balanced. Open play is meant for exactly the "flavour" you are looking for.

Also, you can only attempt each spell once with the new rules, so endless is an extreme exaggeration. 1 unit per turn, after your units start dying, is far from endless.

I see how that could be fun for the undead player, but how is one side having endless swarms balanced?

it seems their rules department is on a tea break because it went from OP to 99.9% worthless. So they failed to balanced and destroyed army fluff/flavor in the process. Great jod, fellas

The AoS rules are actually pretty good, they achieve what they set out to do. If you think summoning in matched play is "99.9% worthless" you have clearly not thought through some of the tactical possibilities.

Play narrative play if you you want to create a cool scene of a Necromancer summoning up hordes of zombies.

You can use the points in narrative play if you want - suggest it to your opponent. Have units in the summoning pool cost half their points or set up a Garden of Morr and allow free summoning of zombies when within 3" of it.

Summoning restrictions in Matched Play are in place to curb the strongest tactics that can be used (mass turn 1 charges of Morghast Harbingers for example). While this does nerf the thematic summoning of a Necromancer it is the best solution in my eyes without drastically rewriting the rules (which isn't needed).

First off, summoning is still perfectly useful. You only reserve points, not units, so you are free to decide on-the-fly what models you need (and where) for the given opponent/scenario/circumstance. That's a really useful tool.

Secondly, bringing back models into existing units does not cost reinforcement points. The only restriction is that you cannot bring the unit above starting size.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
First off, summoning is still perfectly useful. You only reserve points, not units, so you are free to decide on-the-fly what models you need (and where) for the given opponent/scenario/circumstance. That's a really useful tool.

Secondly, bringing back models into existing units does not cost reinforcement points. The only restriction is that you cannot bring the unit above starting size.

I've played enough Matched games against undead hoard armies and their banners are some of the most annoying aspects of that faction. Just bring two, or even 3, banners and that unit will last you the entire game unless it gets focused really hard.

Summoning is closer to Deepstrike in Matched except you can choose the unit you need, when you need it. Its a huge advantage late game, even turn 2 it can change the game if you can drop a hard hitting unit where you need it.

But if you don't like the restrictions placed on Summoning/reinforcing then play Narrative. Just know where to draw the line and don't be "that" guy

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
First off, summoning is still perfectly useful. You only reserve points, not units, so you are free to decide on-the-fly what models you need (and where) for the given opponent/scenario/circumstance. That's a really useful tool.

Secondly, bringing back models into existing units does not cost reinforcement points. The only restriction is that you cannot bring the unit above starting size.

I've played enough Matched games against undead hoard armies and their banners are some of the most annoying aspects of that faction. Just bring two, or even 3, banners and that unit will last you the entire game unless it gets focused really hard.

Summoning is closer to Deepstrike in Matched except you can choose the unit you need, when you need it. Its a huge advantage late game, even turn 2 it can change the game if you can drop a hard hitting unit where you need it.

But if you don't like the restrictions placed on Summoning/reinforcing then play Narrative. Just know where to draw the line and don't be "that" guy

The same never of models are brought back into a unit regardless of the inner of banners it has. But yes, they are very good and totally free in GHB points.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
That sounds good in terms of game balance, but the fluff of a neceomancer doing it is cooler, in my opinion, for skeletons and zombies. It makes more sense for flesh eaters to be self healing. The points have been enough to definitely make me want to play again, I just wish VC had some sort of limited healing or summoning. Oh well, we'll see what they give us in future books

That's great if you want to play fluffy lists with then you don't have to use points. They are not mandatory your arguments are invalidated by the other 2 ways to play. If you want to use points then you obviously want some predetermined balance. The funny thing is you want to be able to summon past your points cap, in doing so throwing the point "balance" out the window.
You can't even see the hypocrisy.

A "fix" I wanna try is allowing up to 25% of the point cost EXTRA to only be used as summoning (i.e. 500 points extra of summon only units available in a 2000 point list). This keeps it toned down from "MUAHAHAHA! Infinite men!" to "Oh noes! you can ACTUALLY get a benefit from summoning now."