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When they are clearly the most broken army in the game? ESP with this new incursion crap.

Just faced an army when literally everything had what amounted to 2+ reroll invo saves. Through a combination of broken warlord traits and items from the stupid wolfen book. Then top it all off with the warp-storm table getting a choice of +1 or -1 to the result...plus fate-weaver...Just forget it. This game is so broken I might never play it again. The combinations this army puts out should not be possible. Anyone that can do simple math can prove this kind of durability isn't feasibly overcome with weapons in this game. So essentially - you pick up models until you run out and you lose.

Thanks GW....this is just what daemons needed - a massive buff!

Looks like someone has been salted by daemons. Would you please share their list?

 Xenomancers wrote:
When they are clearly the most broken army in the game? ESP with this new incursion crap.

Just faced an army when literally everything had what amounted to 2+ reroll invo saves. Through a combination of broken warlord traits and items from the stupid wolfen book. Then top it all off with the warp-storm table getting a choice of +1 or -1 to the result...plus fate-weaver...Just forget it. This game is so broken I might never play it again. The combinations this army puts out should not be possible. Anyone that can do simple math can prove this kind of durability isn't feasibly overcome with weapons in this game. So essentially - you pick up models until you run out and you lose.

Thanks GW....this is just what daemons needed - a massive buff!

Outside of Tzeentch shenanigans, standard Daemons aren't that great. Sure, they have cool toys, but they can get really screwed over by the Warp table. The Wolfen book has some really nice stuff, but some of it's kinda (Soulgrinder) formation. In short, Daemons can be really good, but it's only through spamming stuff.

Salty much? What where you playing?

You know there are things that can just remove a 300+ point daemon from play right?

Someone has a very different idea of the most broken army to me.

Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

Marine weapons can't melt anything in the game.

Marines are 100% dependent upon invisibility for durability vs Xeno shooting.

The other option is a swarm list that puts out more models than can be reasonably destroyed in one game.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

2++? They can get a 2+ cover save, or various other shenanigans, but only Daemons can get the infamous 2++. As to other points, Tau can certainly stand up to Marines, They frequently place in the Top 20. SM and Eldar are just seen as better options, so that's why they place higher. Number of players > OPness of army.


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 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Thank you. Daemons can punk a lot of low AP and Grav armies, but they're not the be all end all OP is claiming they are.

Wait, Daemons got something useful in that Wulfen book ?

I saw Space Wolves on the cover and just moved on.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

2++? They can get a 2+ cover save, or various other shenanigans, but only Daemons can get the infamous 2++. As to other points, Tau can certainly stand up to Marines, They frequently place in the Top 20. SM and Eldar are just seen as better options, so that's why they place higher. Number of players > OPness of army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Thank you. Daemons can punk a lot of low AP and Grav armies, but they're not the be all end all OP is claiming they are.

Huh, I could have sworn spess mureens had access to storm sheilds. I must have been playing against a cheater, sorry about that, my bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Marine weapons can't melt anything in the game.

Marines are 100% dependent upon invisibility for durability vs Xeno shooting.

The other option is a swarm list that puts out more models than can be reasonably destroyed in one game.

They can get loads of melta for anti tank, can droppod grav and melt any high armour save unit and now thanks to the update one of the, if not the best and most broken magic phase in the game. They most certainly can melt basically anything in the game.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

I don't disagree that Marines "can" stomp Tau & Eldar, but the prevailing opinion (or at least the most vocal one) seems to suggest that Marines have a hard time against the other 2. Afterall, they don't have Riptides, WKs and Scatterbikes. In either case, Daemons can only staomp any of the above with "luck"

And yes, SM can get Strom Shields....on crap Terminators. And a Librarian could roll Scatuary to turn that into a 2++....but will Perils on any double. It's possible, but hardly OP as long as you kow the rules and call out your opponent.

--

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

I don't disagree that Marines "can" stomp Tau & Eldar, but the prevailing opinion (or at least the most vocal one) seems to suggest that Marines have a hard time against the other 2. Afterall, they don't have Riptides, WKs and Scatterbikes. In either case, Daemons can only staomp any of the above with "luck"

They are most vocal because they have a massive playerbase, and most people don't like to admit that their army is top tier. Instead of riptides and the like, they just have units that can wipe out entire 2+ armour squads in one shot, best mage phase in the game, good base armour, ridiculous amounts of variety to combat any army they fight, and best ally matrix in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Marines can roll 2++ rerollable, have weapons to absolutely melt any unit in the entire game, can have loads of FREE transports, obj.sec. deepstriking vehicles and the most broken phy phase in the game, paired with their battlebrothers to cover their weaknesses eldar and tau are 100% NOT more "op" than marines. Marines can stomp tau and are very close to eldar (beating eldar easily unless eldar player takes scattbikes,knights or spiders)

I don't disagree that Marines "can" stomp Tau & Eldar, but the prevailing opinion (or at least the most vocal one) seems to suggest that Marines have a hard time against the other 2. Afterall, they don't have Riptides, WKs and Scatterbikes. In either case, Daemons can only staomp any of the above with "luck"

And yes, SM can get Strom Shields....on crap Terminators. And a Librarian could roll Scatuary to turn that into a 2++....but will Perils on any double. It's possible, but hardly OP as long as you kow the rules and call out your opponent.

--

Doest the space marines have a formation where they get to pick their powers and cast on a 2+ or am I misremembering people bitching awhile ago.

Pretty sure Space Marines have a way to get 2+ FnP as well.

I think the biggest issue with Daemons, specifically as viewed by Marine players, is that most of the Marines strengths become useless. Grav, Plasma and Melta are the bread-n-butter of most Marine lists, yet Daemons have invul saves and don't care much about Ap2 weapons or ones that wound on Armour. Daemons are also more mobile than Marines

This makes them a rather good counter to Space Marines, yet against Scatter laser spam, Tau Missile Spam, with highly maneuverable units, Daemons struggle against Eldar and Tau.
This probably adds to the perception that Daemons are OP to a Marine player, since Marines have a much easier time against Tau & Eldar than against Daemons

This is basically why Daemons fly under the Radar. They can't really compete in the same Tier as Eldar and Tau, despite the fact that they seem tailor-made to destroy Marines.

-

Isn't that basically every belligerent marine player's reaction to other armies?

"I can't win easily therefore it must be broken because marines are the best!"

As for the OP, it sounds like you faced the Screamer Star. Note that it's nowhere near as easy as you make it sound; it requires you to fish for one of two specific powers and pray to the dice gods that you can keep that spell up as well as the Grimoire going. If you face someone with, say, a mono nurgle list, you'd have a completely different result. Alternatively it could have been a LoC or Prince with the Impossible Robe being buffed by a Grimoire, but that is a huge investment of points and you could still drown it in wounds (because, unlike the screamer star, it does not have abalative wounds in the form of Screamers that still possess the same save).

MWh ha ha ha. So you got kriumped hard while playing marines, yup this got to be the result of a flaw in the game. Quick write a letter to get how daemons need a good nerf.

You might even sign with the PostScript.

Nerf paper, scissor are fine. Kind regards rock

 Galef wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Plays ultramarines...complains about other armies being overpowered... LOL!!!!!!

In fairness, Eldar & Tau are noticeably more OP than Marines. Particularly AGAINST Marines.

Daemons cannot be considered the most broken because of how random their abilities are. If you'll notice, Daemons never place well in Tourneys. At best Daemons are a "spoiler" army that can upset the results of an Eldar, Tau, or Marine list, preventing that player from placing overall.
I think Xenomancers just had the unfortunate experience of fighting a game when the Chaos Dice gods aligned perfectly against him.

Not even close. Space Marine Deathstars are now the most powerful build in the game and slaughtering Eldar left right and center thanks to the new OP psychic powers given to them and allies shenanigans. Ever since the insane Space Marine power creep set in they have been dominating tournaments everywhere and they were always in the top 5 best armies at #3. The one army that definitely didn't need buffing. Now #1.

http://variancehammer.com/2016/06/08/whats-wrong-with-the-tau/

 Galef wrote:
I think the biggest issue with Daemons, specifically as viewed by Marine players, is that most of the Marines strengths become useless. Grav, Plasma and Melta are the bread-n-butter of most Marine lists, yet Daemons have invul saves and don't care much about Ap2 weapons or ones that wound on Armour. Daemons are also more mobile than Marines

This makes them a rather good counter to Space Marines, yet against Scatter laser spam, Tau Missile Spam, with highly maneuverable units, Daemons struggle against Eldar and Tau.
This probably adds to the perception that Daemons are OP to a Marine player, since Marines have a much easier time against Tau & Eldar than against Daemons

This is basically why Daemons fly under the Radar. They can't really compete in the same Tier as Eldar and Tau, despite the fact that they seem tailor-made to destroy Marines.

-

I'll say there is definitely something here with this line of thought. Not that they re tailor made to defeat marines, but that through virtue of Daemonic saves, they are tougher to kill than Space Marines are used to.

Marines love to fight MEQs. Lower model counts, and they have enough low AP weapons and volume of fire to crack them open.
Marines love fighting hordes. High enough volume of fire and t shirt saves alow them to chew through them quickly enough.

Marines don't like Daemons. MC's can crack open power armor. The whole army ignores 1/3 of the wounds against it, and you can't count on bolter AP to chew through the hordes, like it does with orks and tryanids. Not to mention that a Tzeentch army is probably going to dominate the Psychic phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:
When they are clearly the most broken army in the game? ESP with this new incursion crap.

Just faced an army when literally everything had what amounted to 2+ reroll invo saves. Through a combination of broken warlord traits and items from the stupid wolfen book. Then top it all off with the warp-storm table getting a choice of +1 or -1 to the result...plus fate-weaver...Just forget it. This game is so broken I might never play it again. The combinations this army puts out should not be possible. Anyone that can do simple math can prove this kind of durability isn't feasibly overcome with weapons in this game. So essentially - you pick up models until you run out and you lose.

Thanks GW....this is just what daemons needed - a massive buff!

I know tzeench daemons like the back of my hand and you are either using hyperbole or have been cheated as for an enemy to have 2+ re-rollable on the whole army and the daemonic incursion rules is impossible, this is in part due to:

A) Cursed earth isnt stackable (see the clarification in the new errata on the GW facebook) which means only 1 unit can acheive a 2+ rerollable invulnerability save from grimoire and cursed earth while other units will only get 4+ not including warlord trait modifiers that push it up to 3+ or the impossible robe that bumps a single models save to 2+.

B) Shrouded and other cover save modifiers are the only other options for a 2+ re-rollable which does not extend to units other than screamers, exalted chariots (not including greater daemons who can fly) this cover save is in part to jink and requires a caster with telepathy. These units alone cannot be fielded with the daemonic incursion rules and the whole army having a 2+ re-rollable as that would have to include other units other than screamers and chariots. Also casters other than fateweaver that can cast shrouded are fairly vunerable without the 2+ rerolls making it a difficult army to run as the caster will get focussed and killed. It is also impossible (without unbound) to take these units and fateweaver alone, let alone with daemonic incursion rules. Heck even CAD its impossible.

So which was it, were you cheated or was it hyperbole

Actually it is possible but it requires extreme levels of luck to pull off.

You need Cursed Earth, and prefereabley multiples of it. (Likely to get at least 1 with the 9 units of Pink Horrors required for the Warpflame Host)
You need to roll Warp Surge on the Warp Storm Table. (Which as part of the Daemonic Host can happen on a 9, 10 or 11)
Your Warlord needs to roll the Warp Tether result on the Tzeentch Warlord Table.

If every unit is within 9" of your Warlord, you get (and get off) enough Cursed Earths to cover everything AND if you roll a 9/10/11 of the Warp Storm Chart, everything gets a 2++ rerollable.

I was playing a very strong gladius list. I was tabled in 3 turns because I couldn't kill or tie up anything. 3000 points.

He had a tetred
fateweaver
A flying tzeench daemon
A max screamer star with 2 heralds
3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each
and an exalted flamer chariot

herald in scremer star has a book giving them +2 to their invo save. His warlord had a warlord train granting a 12" +1 invo bubble. When combined with cursed earth it produces a +2 inv bubble. At the very worst daemons have a 3++ in this bubble AND when they have impossible robes or have a natural 4+ they are 2++ saves. for a tzeench daemon that is a 2++ reroll. It was totally insane. Really - can't be beaten without D weapons - and even that is a long shot.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Actually it is possible but it requires extreme levels of luck to pull off.

You need Cursed Earth, and prefereabley multiples of it. (Likely to get at least 1 with the 9 units of Pink Horrors required for the Warpflame Host)
You need to roll Warp Surge on the Warp Storm Table. (Which as part of the Daemonic Host can happen on a 9, 10 or 11)
Your Warlord needs to roll the Warp Tether result on the Tzeentch Warlord Table.

If every unit is within 9" of your Warlord, you get (and get off) enough Cursed Earths to cover everything AND if you roll a 9/10/11 of the Warp Storm Chart, everything gets a 2++ rerollable.

You cant stack multiples of cursed earth - if you dont believe me check the FAQ

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was playing a very strong gladius list. I was tabled in 3 turns because I couldn't kill or tie up anything. 3000 points.

He had a tetred
fateweaver
A flying tzeench daemon
A max screamer star with 2 heralds
3 squads of pink horrors with a herald and 2 exalted flamers in each
and an exalted flamer chariot

herald in scremer star has a book giving them +2 to their invo save. His warlord had a warlord train granting a 12" +1 invo bubble. When combined with cursed earth it produces a +2 inv bubble. At the very worst daemons have a 3++ in this bubble AND when they have impossible robes or have a natural 4+ they are 2++ saves. for a tzeench daemon that is a 2++ reroll. It was totally insane. Really - can't be beaten without D weapons - and even that is a long shot.

Ah but that isn't a daemonic incursion list

 Galef wrote:
I think the biggest issue with Daemons, specifically as viewed by Marine players, is that most of the Marines strengths become useless. Grav, Plasma and Melta are the bread-n-butter of most Marine lists, yet Daemons have invul saves and don't care much about Ap2 weapons or ones that wound on Armour. Daemons are also more mobile than Marines

This makes them a rather good counter to Space Marines, yet against Scatter laser spam, Tau Missile Spam, with highly maneuverable units, Daemons struggle against Eldar and Tau.
This probably adds to the perception that Daemons are OP to a Marine player, since Marines have a much easier time against Tau & Eldar than against Daemons

This is basically why Daemons fly under the Radar. They can't really compete in the same Tier as Eldar and Tau, despite the fact that they seem tailor-made to destroy Marines.

-

I'm really not sure how eldar or tau stand a better chance against this ether. It's not like this army can't reach out and kill things like a wraith-knight or a stormsurge. Riptides are totally impotent against daemons too. Eldar can bring a lot of ranged D so they probably bring the best against daemon in the long run.

@Reavas: You aren't stacking Cursed Earth though, the preferred multiples of it is to make sure you can cover every model.

Cursed Earth gives +1.
Warp Surge gives +1.
Warp Tether gives +1.

As others have noted, Daemons are an army with a high brokenness potential, but also have lots of total garbage and huge random/variability issues. When everything is going right for them, no amount of generalship will save you, they can simply overrun everything. At the same time, most of the army is mediocre and when their rolls go wrong they totally fall apart

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@Reavas: You aren't stacking Cursed Earth though, the preferred multiples of it is to make sure you can cover every model.

Cursed Earth gives +1.
Warp Surge gives +1.
Warp Tether gives +1.

That combination is nearly literally impossible to get off, warp surge being a 1/6 chance on perils per unit (have fun getting that off on all your pink horrors) warp tether and cursed earth are both very hard to roll for, the warlord trait being another 1/6 chance. Look if someone manages to peril on all psyker units AND roll 6's on every one, as well as roll the warlord trait and roll for cursed earth and manifest it then you might want to be careful because your probably playing against a Lord of Change

As far as I know only Fateweaver has a natural 4++, everyone else (including GDs) have to deal with a 5++ now. Also the Warlord trait is 9", not 12. This limits the entirety of the bubble to 18" in diameter and only around the Warlord (otherwise it's two overlapping bubbles)

By the sounds of it his list consisted of:

Warpflame Host
Burning Skyhost
Tetrad
2 Daemon Lord choices (Fateweaver and what sounds like another Lord of Change)

Also, at 3000 points, most people would be expecting Titans and whatnot to be appearing, which means actually a lot of D Weapons. And if any portion of this army fell, the entire thing crumbles since it requires a lot of interlocking pieces.

Also Matt wasn't implying you'd stack Cursed Earths, but rather have multiples of them to cover more of the battlefield so other booster effects can be used. Even without other effects, Cursed Earth basically grants a 4++ to any daemon within it's reach, which is very good.

Basically your opponent had the stars align for them. If I were to go up against someone who rolled 6's for every one of their non-psychic dice and had a Fearless army, I'd be tabled too.

EDIT: I somehow got ninja'd by Matt!

Reavas wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@Reavas: You aren't stacking Cursed Earth though, the preferred multiples of it is to make sure you can cover every model.

Cursed Earth gives +1.
Warp Surge gives +1.
Warp Tether gives +1.

That combination is nearly literally impossible to get off, warp surge being a 1/6 chance on perils per unit (have fun getting that off on all your pink horrors) warp tether and cursed earth are both very hard to roll for, the warlord trait being another 1/6 chance. Look if someone manages to peril on all psyker units AND roll 6's on every one, as well as roll the warlord trait and roll for cursed earth and manifest it then you might want to be careful because your probably playing against a Lord of Change

As I said, it requires extreme luck to pull off.

I never said it was an easy or assured thing, just that it is possible.


Also Warp Surge a result on the Warp Storm Chart.. not sure what you're thinking of. EDIT: Oh wait you're thinking of that same-named result on the Perils table.