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So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Between all my daemons getting -1 to their invul saves, having a random CHARACTER take 3D6 Instability, or my entire army taking Instability, none of them I would actively choose.

Not to mention that if I'm running a four-god army (the Tetrad has this as a basic requirement) and I get one of the "god hates you" rolls, you're pretty much gonna have to choose someone to take a hit.

The table isn't as unbalanced as you think. The Incursion just gives us a way to mitigate it. If you need a better analogy, this is like if Space Marines had, say, a way of boosting their Warp Charge Harnessing to a 3+ or maybe +1 to their FnP rolls, or +1 to hit and so on.

Because space marines totally do not have access to those things in their Gladius. Riiiiight?

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

Your kind of proving my point though...His list wasn't even daemonic incursion. I had no problem with pre incursion daemons.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

Your kind of proving my point though...His list wasn't even daemonic incursion. I had no problem with pre incursion daemons.

Am I? So Daemons got a good formation that stands up to the Gladius or the Psyker Conclave. How is that unfair? It's just more people spamming the best units, it's no different than Wolfstar w/ Librarius, Eldar shenanigans, etc.

I guess the point isn't how Daemons can prevent being "unlucky" by using the Incursion bonus, but it's more about how "lucky" they get rolling Warlord Traits, Greater Rewards and Psypowers.

In your game, Xenomancers, the WL trait rolled was pretty much they best one he could have possibly rolled for his list, and there was only a 1-in-6 chance for that to happen, with no re-roll possible. And no Daemon gets to re-roll rewards, though the Greater table has got really good ones.
It basically boils down to Daemons having the potential to get some really good rolls before the game even starts. Equally likely is having a game where you get a crap WL trait (like the Soul-blaze one) and miss getting any of the durability improving Greater rewards. It's happened to me personally.

What makes Daemons seem "OP" is the how the player uses them. I'd say Daemons are probably the 1 army in 40k that benefits the most from a skilled player. A 'good' player still needs some of those good rolls to play well, but a 'great' player can make due with more bad ones.
But all hell (Warp?) breaks loose when that same 'great' player gets a majority of good rolls. Hello, SM Chapter Baby Seals, here's a club to the face

So while certain Daemon lists played by a certain few players can royally stomp Space Marines, Daemons will still not be considered top tier because of how "Point & Click" easy Gladius, Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau currently are.

-

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
So in regards to warp-storm. In case the people are responding without understanding this - All terrible results are impossible to occur and all extremely favorable results go up roughly 50% in their chance of occurring - not to mention the typical choice of 3 results whichever suits you best...

That doesn't sound like luck to me...it sounds pretty automatic. I'm really not buying that you need to be lucky to win with daemons.

Dude, you lost. He had a better list, got some lucky rolls, and beat you. Stop being so salty. And Daemons don't fly under the rader, a guy got top 8 at the LVO with a Daemons list running all Tzeentch.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alan-Bajramovic-4th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

Your kind of proving my point though...His list wasn't even daemonic incursion. I had no problem with pre incursion daemons.

Am I? So Daemons got a good formation that stands up to the Gladius or the Psyker Conclave. How is that unfair? It's just more people spamming the best units, it's no different than Wolfstar w/ Librarius, Eldar shenanigans, etc.

It is different for a lot of reasons. Marines are absolute garbo without gladius or libby conclave. How many pregladius marine armies were winning grad tourny events by spamming Rhinos and Razorbacks and tactical marines? Even with a 6th edition codex the daemons have been placing high at tourney events since I can remember - and vs 7th edition armies. Incursion removes all their weaknesses and adds tons of strength. Super broken if you ask me. That's not to say there is not other super broken stuff in this game. My point is that this army now belongs in that category.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
I guess the point isn't how Daemons can prevent being "unlucky" by using the Incursion bonus, but it's more about how "lucky" they get rolling Warlord Traits, Greater Rewards and Psypowers.

In your game, Xenomancers, the WL trait rolled was pretty much they best one he could have possibly rolled for his list, and there was only a 1-in-6 chance for that to happen, with no re-roll possible. And no Daemon gets to re-roll rewards, though the Greater table has got really good ones.
It basically boils down to Daemons having the potential to get some really good rolls before the game even starts. Equally likely is having a game where you get a crap WL trait (like the Soul-blaze one) and miss getting any of the durability improving Greater rewards. It's happened to me personally.

What makes Daemons seem "OP" is the how the player uses them. I'd say Daemons are probably the 1 army in 40k that benefits the most from a skilled player. A 'good' player still needs some of those good rolls to play well, but a 'great' player can make due with more bad ones.
But all hell (Warp?) breaks loose when that same 'great' player gets a majority of good rolls. Hello, SM Chapter Baby Seals, here's a club to the face

So while certain Daemon lists played by a certain few players can royally stomp Space Marines, Daemons will still not be considered top tier because of how "Point & Click" easy Gladius, Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau currently are.

-

So in the hands of a skilled player - where do you rank daemons?

 Xenomancers wrote:

So in the hands of a skilled player - where do you rank daemons?

If all players involed are equally well skilled, I'd rank a good Incursion list just below Eldar Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau Suit spam, but above Necron Decurion.
Against Marines it gets tricky. Overall a good Gladius list should preform better against Eldar and Tau than the Incursion would fare against either. But the same Incursion list would probably be much better against the Gladius.

Eldar, Tau, Marines & Necrons were the "big 4" before the Incursion list, but I think we are starting to see how the post-Incursion Deamons have beat out Necrons for that spot.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

So in the hands of a skilled player - where do you rank daemons?

If all players involed are equally well skilled, I'd rank a good Incursion list just below Eldar Scatterbike/WK spam and Tau Suit spam, but above Necron Decurion.
Against Marines it gets tricky. Overall a good Gladius list should preform better against Eldar and Tau than the Incursion would fare against either. But the same Incursion list would probably be much better against the Gladius.

Eldar, Tau, Marines & Necrons were the "big 4" before the Incursion list, but I think we are starting to see how the post-Incursion Deamons have beat out Necrons for that spot.

-

I agree with those being the new most powerful armies. I disagree on the order Eldar>Daemons>Tau>Space marines

Xenoi, it's not even worth talking with you at this point. No one's ever denied Daemons were top tier, just that they're top tier like Nids, in that there's very few successful lists. But sure, Daemons are OP and Gladius is fair and fluffy. Happy?

I don't think I explained correctly. I did not mean "Eldar>Daemons>Tau>Space marines"
I meant this: Eldar>Tau>Space Marine>Necrons
Deamons>Space Marines & Necrons, but cannot fit in the above because Daemons can't stand up to Eldar or Tau as well as Space marines can.

It's more like rock/paper/scissors. SM = paper, Eldar = rock, Daemons = scissors. Assuming "rock" rips through "paper", of course.

Side note edit: I'm denying Daemons as Top Tier. Not because they can't beat Top Tier lists, but because they get much less "guarantees" than the other armies. Imagine if Eldar players had to roll to see if they could buy Scatter lasers, or if Marines had to roll to see if their squads got Grav, but still had to pay points for them if they didn't. Eldar can build a Top tier slaughter list with 0 psychic powers (or pay only 115 pts for near guaranteed twin-linking 2 units)
There are more opportunities for "bad dice" with Daemons that other armies who can just pay points to make certain combos. Daemons are also a CC army in an edition that favors shooting.
Although it is quite impressive that they do as well as they can despite this

-

 Galef wrote:
I don't think I explained correctly. I did not mean "Eldar>Daemons>Tau>Space marines"
I meant this: Eldar>Tau>Space Marine>Necrons
Deamons>Space Marines & Necrons, but cannot fit in the above because Daemons can't stand up to Eldar or Tau as well as Space marines can.

It's more like rock/paper/scissors. SM = paper, Eldar = rock, Daemons = scissors. Assuming "rock" rips through "paper", of course.

Side note edit: I'm denying Daemons as Top Tier. Not because they can't beat Top Tier lists, but because they get much less "guarantees" than the other armies. Imagine if Eldar players had to roll to see if they could buy Scatter lasers, or if Marines had to roll to see if their squads got Grav, but still had to pay points for them if they didn't. Eldar can build a Top tier slaughter list with 0 psychic powers (or pay only 115 pts for near guaranteed twin-linking 2 units)
There are more opportunities for "bad dice" with Daemons that other armies who can just pay points to make certain combos. Daemons are also a CC army in an edition that favors shooting.
Although it is quite impressive that they do as well as they can despite this

-

This. I've had some great games as Daemons, and games where I rolled utter gak and it ended up costing me the game. Random wargear isn't much fun

Just because I'm cheeky, I'm gonna do some maths!

The warlord trait, if it was on the Daemon Princes, is 1 in 6.

If EACH daemon prince also had a 2++ rerollable, that would mean that, combined with the above, they would have also needed one specific greater reward. To be generous, lets say they each had two rolls on the table to get it, so 2/6 or 1/3

But each of the non-princes would need it, so it would be 1/9 (1/3 times itself three times)

so just those two together would have been a 1/54 chance.

No other army in the game has a 1/54 chance of having a specific setup for their army before the game has even started. Every other army is, at worst, 1 in 6 because of Warlord Traits (psychic powers are discounted because complicated math is not cheeky math), and most don't give a rat's ass about the warlord trait in the grand scheme of the army (with the exception of a handful that abuse the infiltration trait). I discounted the Warp Storm Table because with Marine Formations, Marines do have their own way of mitigating bad rolls as well.

(If you do add in all the psychic powers and the warp storm table traits and whatever, the odds of it all occuring like that shoots up so high that you actually have a better chance of wounding a daemon in his army than he were to have that specific army set up against you).

Also on a tangent; Razorspam *was* a thing in 5th edition due to them being cheap weapon platforms and inhumanly durable under the 5th edition vehicle rules, and was only considered sub-par in recent editions because Marines started abusing the hell out of drop pod spam. Not to mention Vanilla Marines were complained to be broken because they had exclusive access to Grav for the longest time.

You've had a loss, and sounds like a rather humiliating one at that. Take it on the chin and learn from it.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Just because I'm cheeky, I'm gonna do some maths!

The warlord trait, if it was on the Daemon Princes, is 1 in 6.

If EACH daemon prince also had a 2++ rerollable, that would mean that, combined with the above, they would have also needed one specific greater reward. To be generous, lets say they each had two rolls on the table to get it, so 2/6 or 1/3

But each of the non-princes would need it, so it would be 1/9 (1/3 times itself three times)

so just those two together would have been a 1/54 chance.

No other army in the game has a 1/54 chance of having a specific setup for their army before the game has even started. Every other army is, at worst, 1 in 6 because of Warlord Traits (psychic powers are discounted because complicated math is not cheeky math), and most don't give a rat's ass about the warlord trait in the grand scheme of the army (with the exception of a handful that abuse the infiltration trait). I discounted the Warp Storm Table because with Marine Formations, Marines do have their own way of mitigating bad rolls as well.

(If you do add in all the psychic powers and the warp storm table traits and whatever, the odds of it all occuring like that shoots up so high that you actually have a better chance of wounding a daemon in his army than he were to have that specific army set up against you).

Also on a tangent; Razorspam *was* a thing in 5th edition due to them being cheap weapon platforms and inhumanly durable under the 5th edition vehicle rules, and was only considered sub-par in recent editions because Marines started abusing the hell out of drop pod spam. Not to mention Vanilla Marines were complained to be broken because they had exclusive access to Grav for the longest time.

You've had a loss, and sounds like a rather humiliating one at that. Take it on the chin and learn from it.

^^^ Da Troof ^^^

Something else can happen much easier with Daemons as well. Since Daemons have so much random rolling on so many tables that most players aren't intimately familiar with, it can be easy to cheat and say a roll gives a different results.

When your opponent rolled his Trait and Rewards, did he show you the book? Or just say "I rolled a 4, that menas X"?

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

 reiner wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

Yep. I usually tell my opponents "Hey, I'll go over everything pre-game, but stop and ask me any time, cuz I have a boatload of special rules"

 jreilly89 wrote:

 reiner wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

Yep. I usually tell my opponents "Hey, I'll go over everything pre-game, but stop and ask me any time, cuz I have a boatload of special rules"

This so much. Daemons are complicated and it can go a long way towards making your opponent feel as though thegame was fair to simply show him your codex as you roll rewards. Ive always made sure my opponents know my reward rolls as well as psyker spells, even to the point of repeating myself multiple times.

It just feels more sportsmanlike and really softens the blow of a loss for your opponent.

Having said this i disagree that daemons are OP, i think theyre actually in a good place balance wise.

I am late to the party, but I read this is a 3k game. 3k of Gladius. That is horrifying. The deployment is wall to wall rhinos? I would just keep making demi companies if possible. There is no way the daemons could kill that amount of units

AncientSkarbrand wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 reiner wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I know that most of my opponents are nowhere near as familiar with the Daemon abilities as I am. This is why I always hand the book over to them, make my rolls and have them read the ability. This may slow down book-keeping a bit, but it is worth it as it does 2 things: 1) shows that I'm not just making stuff up and 2) allows my opponent to be more familiar with the Codex, thus isn't so blindsided each game.

When I was getting more pick up games, I'd go over my rolls as I did them with my opponent and make sure they had time to peruse. However, it usually ended up with a glazed look or a dismissive "I trust you". Blindsides were common, but at least they trusted my rolls. The advice is solid, in getting somewhat familiar with how rewards work and the more common choices on these. Also, pay attention to redundant psychic powers hidden among heralds or horrors. That kind of redundancy wins games for Daemons.

Yep. I usually tell my opponents "Hey, I'll go over everything pre-game, but stop and ask me any time, cuz I have a boatload of special rules"

This so much. Daemons are complicated and it can go a long way towards making your opponent feel as though thegame was fair to simply show him your codex as you roll rewards. Ive always made sure my opponents know my reward rolls as well as psyker spells, even to the point of repeating myself multiple times.

It just feels more sportsmanlike and really softens the blow of a loss for your opponent.

Having said this i disagree that daemons are OP, i think theyre actually in a good place balance wise.

Daemons at most have some very, very rude exploits that simply should not exist at all. (*cough*rerollable2++saves*cough*) And I say this as someone who's played predominately Tzeentch Daemons since the original 5th ed codex was released!
Likewise, I think it's BS that Horrors can take anything other than Tzeentch magic - at best they should have Tizz + Pyromancy, since their focus has always been a purely psychic/magical artillery role. Suddenly becoming better versions of SG1's Replicators should never have been allowed.

Mostly though, Daemons are just that 'weird' army that few non-Chaos players will be familiar with, and come across at face value as being counter-intuitive at first glance due to the completely random nature of our rules & wargear generation.
Instead though, you have an on-paper inherently random army, but all those Reward tables and such contain a lot of built-in controls... From defaulting to really, really good weapons, to things like literally *ALL* of the protective rolls being located within the Greater Rewards table.
Instruments themselves can help to mitigate the backlash of the most common Warpstorm table results (or enhance them!), with the various Locii abilities & banners acting as huge force multipliers, and the available synergies of choosing the right psychic lores to support it all.

AND THEN, add in all the tasty new artifacts & warlord traits + the super detachment from CotW, and yeah, Daemons are basically 7th's version of 5th ed's Orks, who when designed & used well, can still hang with the newest "cheese" of the top dogs despite being the second oldest book currently in the game.



On the whole though, OP is simply proving why so many people roll their eyes at Loyalists... Daemon opponent literally ended up with a game where they effectively 'caught lightning in a bottle' and roflestomped to victory by simply winning the Warp Lottery.

Both players brought hyper competitive, maxed out & finely aged gouda to the party. Daemons won it pre-game because of sheer dumb luck. OP's response is to just whine and cry "OMG! Daemons are so brokenz, my muhreen sux compared to them!"
On the other hand, it's not like Loyalists players ever called out Daemon players as being nothing but a bunch of whiney, entitled noobs who just needed to "L2P & GitGud" when Grey Knights auto-stomped us into the ground with game breaking mechanics that led to times we couldn't even legally deploy a single model on the table!

I think it has to do with two things:

1) What GW is really trying to push right now
2) What is selling well right now

GW is really trying to push AoS right now. They aren't abandoning 40K, but they are pushing AoS and only really certain armies in AoS. So, 40K Chaos isn't going to get a lot of attention right now just like 40K in general isn't getting a ton of attention right now (even though it's still dominating in sales).

Also, I'm sure GW is looking at sales numbers from the past to forecast what will sell now and in the future. Granted, it may be simply because Chaos has been so neglected, but for the year+ that I've been into Warhammer, I've seen very, very few people buying Chaos models in general Daemons or Space Marines. While I can really only look at my local GW shop, I don't think the Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines has sold well at all.

That's probably why Chaos as a whole hasn't had really any support in a long time.

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:
I think it has to do with two things:

1) What GW is really trying to push right now
2) What is selling well right now

GW is really trying to push AoS right now. They aren't abandoning 40K, but they are pushing AoS and only really certain armies in AoS. So, 40K Chaos isn't going to get a lot of attention right now just like 40K in general isn't getting a ton of attention right now (even though it's still dominating in sales).

Also, I'm sure GW is looking at sales numbers from the past to forecast what will sell now and in the future. Granted, it may be simply because Chaos has been so neglected, but for the year+ that I've been into Warhammer, I've seen very, very few people buying Chaos models in general Daemons or Space Marines. While I can really only look at my local GW shop, I don't think the Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines has sold well at all.

That's probably why Chaos as a whole hasn't had really any support in a long time.

SG

I think part of the problem with Daemons not selling as well is because;
1. It's not a 'Competitive Friendly' army. Anyone who's aim is to win/do well in organised events, naturally will gravitate towards those armies that can be built with as much reliability & redundancy as possible within their lists.
Daemons on the other hand are the complete opposite of this! Even the most highly optimised Daemons list is still in part at the mercy of the Dice Gods during its pre-game set-ups. Likewise, even with say Fateweaver leading an Incursion detachment, it's still possible to get nothing but 'bad' to even catastrophic results on the Warpstorm table. (yes, it's really, really unlikely, but it's still possible!)

No one who's aiming for the top tables, especially in big tournaments with money/prizes on the line is going to readily go for such an army, even if that army has say 6-8 favourable match-ups compared to much more predictable armies that instead may have 1 or 2 very glaring awful match-ups. (even if/when those bad match-ups may be rather common.)

2. Daemons just have a terrible reputation...
We ruined 7th edition Fantasy that one summer. We still "broke" 8th edition even harder apparently.

We "don't belong" in 40k due to being a "fantasy army in a sci-fi shooting game". GK's murdered us horrendously back in 5th & early 6th.

Daemons are too "randumb", they take too long to do all their rolls, it's easy to get cheated, etc...

Only TFG's play Daemons because re-rolled 2++/Clown Car/50+ warp charges per phase/Flying Circus/unbeatable Incursion detachment, blah, blah, blah...



Now concerning CSM's, it's entirely because GW have not just left the entire model range to rot for a whole decade now, but also the fact that our rules have likewise been consistently among the game's worst outside of 1 single codex since 3rd edition!

Chaos Marines as a whole still try and play the game like it's 3rd edition. Our model line is second only to Sisters in both overall age AND lack of plastics/wargear options.

Everything about CSM's just screams, "Loyalists -10" in every way, and yet, despite being far more diverse in their overall organisation & character than Loyalists, CSM's get no fancy special snowflake rules, let alone even a basic distinction between Heresy-era Legion warbands vs. modern Renegades.