Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys,

Just building some lists for my Space Wolves and I have dropped my Landraider Phobos in favor of a Spartan. The question is, why would you take a Landraider? The Spartan is 45 pts more and seems to be more survivable and pack more dudes and be more killy. The only thing the LR has going for it is that it can be taken in squads which then get very expensive pts wise.

The Spartan (with flare shield) is actually significantly more expensive in the new book. Almost 100 points more over a LR.

Ah have LRs gone down? I only have the crusade red book

Daston wrote:
Ah have LRs gone down? I only have the crusade red book

The new Age of Darkness book did drop LR prices.

I have been debating on this myself. The Phobos isn't as durable, because it doesn't sport as many HP or a Flare Shield, but when it is like 100+ point cheaper, it makes it less of a major loss when it bites it. Plus, you get more points to throw into more threats.

I have been considering a Phobos for my Red Butchers and a Spartan for a fat Tac Squad with Surlak, for my World Eaters. I originally planned for both in Spartans, but it was so point prohibitive.

Thoughts on this? Anyone else going this route?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I have been debating on this myself. The Phobos isn't as durable, because it doesn't sport as many HP or a Flare Shield, but when it is like 100+ point cheaper, it makes it less of a major loss when it bites it. Plus, you get more points to throw into more threats.

I have been considering a Phobos for my Red Butchers and a Spartan for a fat Tac Squad with Surlak, for my World Eaters. I originally planned for both in Spartans, but it was so point prohibitive.

Thoughts on this? Anyone else going this route?

I run a Land Raider with a Termi squad in it, on the regular. I know it's not going to survive the whole battle, so it's purpose is to slam itself forward as fast as possible, get it's cargo out to do their job, and then spend as long as it can shooting before it gets put out to pasture.

A Spartan, it can be a big point sink, but I am looking at getting one eventually to get my 20 man tac death star to places faster, and that bit more anti-tank punch the 4 twin linked lascannon shots give.

In the end I say that Spartan is unquestionably better, but the Land Raider itself is not bad.

djones summed it up pretty well.

I have a unit of 5 Red Butchers that I run in a Phobos. With ceramite, it holds up well enough in smaller, sub-2000 pt games. I'm still going to keep it once I have things built out to 3000, but then I'll also be running a Spartan, Kharybdis, and other threats that will take plenty of heat off it.

I'm by no means an initiate of 30k. My experience currently extends no further than list-writing, but I'd much rather have a Land Raider and something else than a Spartan. I'm a great believer in the 'vanilla' units in general, but most of the problem for me stems from the Spartan suffering from 'Centurion Syndrome', in that the design originated from someone saying 'Hey, let's make the thing that already exists, but for thrice the price!'

Mind you, that could be said of everything in 30k. Alright, it stems from someone saying 'Hey, let's make a Land Raider, only more Land-Raider-ish!' In the same way that the Centurions are a result of someone saying 'Hey, let's make Terminators, only more Terminatorish!'

It just smacks of a lack of creativity. Also, yes, my 40k philosophy has bled through, so I'm loath to spend more than 300pts on anything.

I don't agree re: creativity. Players were going to want a heavy transport with the capacity to hold 30K-sized squads, and it makes sense in-universe that the Legions would have such a thing.

 gorgon wrote:
I don't agree re: creativity. Players were going to want a heavy transport with the capacity to hold 30K-sized squads, and it makes sense in-universe that the Legions would have such a thing.

Exactly. Land Raiders can hold 10 models, or 5 terminators. They can't exactly serve as command vehicles with such limited capacity. That is the Spartans role. To transport the higher ranking members of the legions with their big hitter body guard units.

 djones520 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I don't agree re: creativity. Players were going to want a heavy transport with the capacity to hold 30K-sized squads, and it makes sense in-universe that the Legions would have such a thing.

Exactly. Land Raiders can hold 10 models, or 5 terminators. They can't exactly serve as command vehicles with such limited capacity. That is the Spartans role. To transport the higher ranking members of the legions with their big hitter body guard units.

And when your Spartan isn't big enough, they have the Mastodon.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I don't agree re: creativity. Players were going to want a heavy transport with the capacity to hold 30K-sized squads, and it makes sense in-universe that the Legions would have such a thing.

Exactly. Land Raiders can hold 10 models, or 5 terminators. They can't exactly serve as command vehicles with such limited capacity. That is the Spartans role. To transport the higher ranking members of the legions with their big hitter body guard units.

And when your Spartan isn't big enough, they have the Mastodon.

And the Mastodon is exactly the right unit to illustrate my point; there's an interesting, well-designed, epic unit with more to offer than just being a bigger Land Raider. I see absolutely no reason why the Spartan couldn't have been similarly unique. As it is, one could easily convert a Spartan using two basic Land Raiders, and I'd rather buy things from Forge World which I couldn't just make myself for half the price.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a Spartan, I'm saying it could have been more interesting.

There's making every miniature look different, and then there's making miniatures that look like a real-life design evolution.

Besides, the Mastadon also has a different function in the fluff than the Spartan -- it breaches fortifications and then delivers troops into the breach. Different function = different design. The Spartan and Phobos share the same basic function, just with different capacity.

I have one but to be honest i cant be bothered to make it, i doubt i would ever use the spartan because it just costs too many points to do a job that im not even sure i want done.
Its tough but its armaments are generally crap and it comes down to 1 question "Can i kill it?" if the answer is "yes!" i will do that before it does its job and if the answer is "no!" ill just ignore it and kill the rest of the army even harder which is probably the best bet anyway.

 King Amroth wrote:
I have one but to be honest i cant be bothered to make it, i doubt i would ever use the spartan because it just costs too many points to do a job that im not even sure i want done.
Its tough but its armaments are generally crap and it comes down to 1 question "Can i kill it?" if the answer is "yes!" i will do that before it does its job and if the answer is "no!" ill just ignore it and kill the rest of the army even harder which is probably the best bet anyway.

Feel free to send that Spartan my way if you're not going to use it!

I bought it for my Iron Warriors but it is pretty useless to them. Maybe my Emperors Children will get some use out of it at some point.

 gorgon wrote:
There's making every miniature look different, and then there's making miniatures that look like a real-life design evolution.

Besides, the Mastadon also has a different function in the fluff than the Spartan -- it breaches fortifications and then delivers troops into the breach. Different function = different design. The Spartan and Phobos share the same basic function, just with different capacity.

I might be wrong about this, but was the Phobos not the more developed design? I'm fairly sure it was substantially later than the Spartan, and followed the pattern of cheaper, easier to produce units to equip the ever growing Legiones. It would also make sense for the later Legiones to need transports for smaller units, rather than larger ones, as they were stretched over broader fronts and needed to accomplish just as much, but with fewer Marines. That's certainly the trend followed by the aircraft, anyway.

Also, the Spartan and Mastodon are quite comparable in their roles. They're both bulk delivery systems for Space Marines which mount heavy weapons and protective shenanigans, and given the number of seiges we actually see on the tabletop, I'd say in practical terms they're going to be used in exactly the same way. This still doesn't mean they should look identical; the Spartan is a distinct vehicle with its own chassis, and the design team missed the opportunity to make something unique.

But we're getting off topic. The other reason I'd rather have a Phobos is the price. In 40k I struggle to get big, expensive units to make back their points, and I see a lot of other people having the same issue. Even Terminators and basic Land Raiders, I've found, seldom accomplish enough to be worth their cost. The old adage of 'boys before toys' applies here as much as it does nearly everywhere else; don't blow all your points on a big, focal-point unit for your army to the exclusion of everything else. Take a healthy number and mix of units to provide insurance for your tactics and to guarantee a good time for everyone.

 King Amroth wrote:
I bought it for my Iron Warriors but it is pretty useless to them. Maybe my Emperors Children will get some use out of it at some point.

I can see that. You don't have exactly all that much you must ram down someone's throat, like say the World Eaters. But even still, tossing some stock Termies in it and running Golg, you could smash some defenses that way. Spartan always has uses and the cost for normal games (3k), isn't that much of an investment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spineyguy wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
There's making every miniature look different, and then there's making miniatures that look like a real-life design evolution.

Besides, the Mastadon also has a different function in the fluff than the Spartan -- it breaches fortifications and then delivers troops into the breach. Different function = different design. The Spartan and Phobos share the same basic function, just with different capacity.

I might be wrong about this, but was the Phobos not the more developed design? I'm fairly sure it was substantially later than the Spartan, and followed the pattern of cheaper, easier to produce units to equip the ever growing Legiones. It would also make sense for the later Legiones to need transports for smaller units, rather than larger ones, as they were stretched over broader fronts and needed to accomplish just as much, but with fewer Marines. That's certainly the trend followed by the aircraft, anyway.

Also, the Spartan and Mastodon are quite comparable in their roles. They're both bulk delivery systems for Space Marines which mount heavy weapons and protective shenanigans, and given the number of seiges we actually see on the tabletop, I'd say in practical terms they're going to be used in exactly the same way. This still doesn't mean they should look identical; the Spartan is a distinct vehicle with its own chassis, and the design team missed the opportunity to make something unique.

But we're getting off topic. The other reason I'd rather have a Phobos is the price. In 40k I struggle to get big, expensive units to make back their points, and I see a lot of other people having the same issue. Even Terminators and basic Land Raiders, I've found, seldom accomplish enough to be worth their cost. The old adage of 'boys before toys' applies here as much as it does nearly everywhere else; don't blow all your points on a big, focal-point unit for your army to the exclusion of everything else. Take a healthy number and mix of units to provide insurance for your tactics and to guarantee a good time for everyone.

The Land Raider Phobos is the standard 40k model. It existed as an STC alongside all the others, to my knowledge.

Also, in 30k, you get boys and toys. That is the idea. Now, the Mastodon strikes me as too much a liability, but a Spartan? Sitting at about 10-12% of a list's total points to deliver a unit that can and will wreck stuff seems worth it. While a Phobos seems like a nice way to get target saturation to ensure it is harder to focus on your toys (Spartans, Falchion, etc), because there are many AV14 threats to deal with.

Just my $.02 on that. I am going to try dual Spartans and a Phobos/Spartan when I get my WE built. I think it depends heavily on the types of players in the local setting as to what would work best.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I have been debating on this myself. The Phobos isn't as durable, because it doesn't sport as many HP or a Flare Shield, but when it is like 100+ point cheaper, it makes it less of a major loss when it bites it. Plus, you get more points to throw into more threats.

I have been considering a Phobos for my Red Butchers and a Spartan for a fat Tac Squad with Surlak, for my World Eaters. I originally planned for both in Spartans, but it was so point prohibitive.

Thoughts on this? Anyone else going this route?

I like to put my Butchers in a Dreadclaw, especially if you don't have any other pods so they're guaranteed to drop turn 1. Even better since they now have inertial guidance. You can drop in, if you go off course just flat out where you need to be, jink if (when) shot at, everyone gets out turn 2 and charges. Also, it's 100pts cheaper than a Phobos, almost guarantees a turn 2 charge, and doesn't risk your guys getting their ride blown up and stuck on your side of the table. Only downside is a lack of lascannons.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I have been debating on this myself. The Phobos isn't as durable, because it doesn't sport as many HP or a Flare Shield, but when it is like 100+ point cheaper, it makes it less of a major loss when it bites it. Plus, you get more points to throw into more threats.

I have been considering a Phobos for my Red Butchers and a Spartan for a fat Tac Squad with Surlak, for my World Eaters. I originally planned for both in Spartans, but it was so point prohibitive.

Thoughts on this? Anyone else going this route?

I like to put my Butchers in a Dreadclaw, especially if you don't have any other pods so they're guaranteed to drop turn 1. Even better since they now have inertial guidance. You can drop in, if you go off course just flat out where you need to be, jink if (when) shot at, everyone gets out turn 2 and charges. Also, it's 100pts cheaper than a Phobos, almost guarantees a turn 2 charge, and doesn't risk your guys getting their ride blown up and stuck on your side of the table. Only downside is a lack of lascannons.

Yea, the other downside is that your unit is then in the face of your opponent's entire army all by itself. If I did that, I would want at least 3 Pods landing T1, because otherwise, the unit that arrives will just get wiped. Target saturation will prevent that. Especially if one of those things landing is a Leviathan and a fat blob squad in a Kharybdis, imo.

But then the list is pretty committed to the Pod playstyle. I haven't found a list I like that does 50/50 armor and pods, at least.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I have been debating on this myself. The Phobos isn't as durable, because it doesn't sport as many HP or a Flare Shield, but when it is like 100+ point cheaper, it makes it less of a major loss when it bites it. Plus, you get more points to throw into more threats.

I have been considering a Phobos for my Red Butchers and a Spartan for a fat Tac Squad with Surlak, for my World Eaters. I originally planned for both in Spartans, but it was so point prohibitive.

Thoughts on this? Anyone else going this route?

I like to put my Butchers in a Dreadclaw, especially if you don't have any other pods so they're guaranteed to drop turn 1. Even better since they now have inertial guidance. You can drop in, if you go off course just flat out where you need to be, jink if (when) shot at, everyone gets out turn 2 and charges. Also, it's 100pts cheaper than a Phobos, almost guarantees a turn 2 charge, and doesn't risk your guys getting their ride blown up and stuck on your side of the table. Only downside is a lack of lascannons.

Yea, the other downside is that your unit is then in the face of your opponent's entire army all by itself. If I did that, I would want at least 3 Pods landing T1, because otherwise, the unit that arrives will just get wiped. Target saturation will prevent that. Especially if one of those things landing is a Leviathan and a fat blob squad in a Kharybdis, imo.

But then the list is pretty committed to the Pod playstyle. I haven't found a list I like that does 50/50 armor and pods, at least.

Yea, I should note that, particularly with the new army book, there's rarely a Spartan in my list at all and I have my blob of tacticals in a Kharybdis as well as a Cortus in a pod.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:
I bought it for my Iron Warriors but it is pretty useless to them. Maybe my Emperors Children will get some use out of it at some point.

I can see that. You don't have exactly all that much you must ram down someone's throat, like say the World Eaters. But even still, tossing some stock Termies in it and running Golg, you could smash some defenses that way. Spartan always has uses and the cost for normal games (3k), isn't that much of an investment.
.

We generally play between 2k and 2.5k and if it got to 3k ill bring perty instead of a spartan and probably deepstrike 2 units of legion terminators and a unit of Tyrants on turns 1-2.
About the only use i can actually see for a spartan not including some legion special units is to deliver a cataphracti squad who dont have any shooting worth using or to deliver despoilers and if someone has something like that in a spartan ill pop it turn 1 and ignore them for a turn or 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I played a game against dark angels with 2 big termie squads each in a spartan, a cortus dread and a sicaran at 2.5 it was a massacre for the poor guys stuck in a lumbering box especially since it was vanguard deployment.

Good thread. What are the thoughts about a Phobos vs. Armored Proteus?

Well, that becomes a question of what you want from that HS slot.

A Proteus doesn't have an assault ramp, so it's inferior for throwing nastiness into close combat. If you're looking for something to port a smallish unit around the table and manipulate reserves it might be your choice.

 Ifurita wrote:
Good thread. What are the thoughts about a Phobos vs. Armored Proteus?

Proteus is so cheap for an AV14 4HP box. It doesn't hold as many dudes with the EAW, but I am not sure that is really that worthwhile anyhow.

I would go for something like this maybe, depending on the Legion:

(10) Breacher Squad
2x Graviton Guns, Vexilla
Power Fist, Artificer Armor
Land Raider Proteus
Armored Ceramite, Dozer Blade
[475]

That can add more armor to the table and gives you a 10-man unit to go take and hold an objective.

 King Amroth wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 King Amroth wrote:
I bought it for my Iron Warriors but it is pretty useless to them. Maybe my Emperors Children will get some use out of it at some point.

I can see that. You don't have exactly all that much you must ram down someone's throat, like say the World Eaters. But even still, tossing some stock Termies in it and running Golg, you could smash some defenses that way. Spartan always has uses and the cost for normal games (3k), isn't that much of an investment.
.

We generally play between 2k and 2.5k and if it got to 3k ill bring perty instead of a spartan and probably deepstrike 2 units of legion terminators and a unit of Tyrants on turns 1-2.
About the only use i can actually see for a spartan not including some legion special units is to deliver a cataphracti squad who dont have any shooting worth using or to deliver despoilers and if someone has something like that in a spartan ill pop it turn 1 and ignore them for a turn or 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I played a game against dark angels with 2 big termie squads each in a spartan, a cortus dread and a sicaran at 2.5 it was a massacre for the poor guys stuck in a lumbering box especially since it was vanguard deployment.

This is one of the reasons why in my list building when doing larger 3k pt lists I am tempted to use a Thunderhawk. For the time being the LR has been moved to my Thousand Sons Legion as they have no vehicles at the moment.

Daston wrote:
This is one of the reasons why in my list building when doing larger 3k pt lists I am tempted to use a Thunderhawk. For the time being the LR has been moved to my Thousand Sons Legion as they have no vehicles at the moment.

At like 860pt for a decent Thunderhawk, You aren't going to see one at 3k. You would have to be at like 3.5k. Do people play games that large?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Daston wrote:
This is one of the reasons why in my list building when doing larger 3k pt lists I am tempted to use a Thunderhawk. For the time being the LR has been moved to my Thousand Sons Legion as they have no vehicles at the moment.

At like 860pt for a decent Thunderhawk, You aren't going to see one at 3k. You would have to be at like 3.5k. Do people play games that large?

Some times We are currently planning a weekender with 4vs4 and 4k pts each over a very very large table. The 30k Thunderhawk is very expensive compared to the 40k version but I guess thats to balance it off against the forces its facing.

With the new book, the spartan is less attractive to me. On the other hand the Phobos is looking more attractive. I was already building one for my deathshroud, but I could see using more in general. Assault ramps can be nice.

I use Landraider Phobos's as I want to move 5 man terminator squads around to score objectives and wipe out remnants of units that have been shot to pieces by my main force. My opponents use Land Raider Spartans to deliver super-charged asssault units with Primarchs and/or characters into my line. Land Raider Proteus's are dirt cheap for what you get, but I haven't seen them take the field yet- I'm quite attracted to the idea of taking it with the hull mounted twin las for a shooting & scoring power armoured units that can take it as a dedicated transport.

TLDR:Each of these vehicles has a use, work out what you are using it for and pick the right one.