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**Polonius**

gorgon wrote:
Enter Trump. At least he isn't ignoring them like everyone else, right? So they latched onto him. And while there's plenty of deplorable things about Trump and some of his supporters, do they ALL deserve to be called deplorable for gravitating to the one candidate who seems to understand their pain (as ridiculous as that may seem)? I'd probably resent Hillary like crazy for that if I was in their shoes. And I'd probably be fed up with the mainstream of both parties.

It's not really about returning to some past version of America -- I think they just want some opportunity and some sense of a future beyond watching their town fall apart.

I've wondered for a while now what, if anything, Hilary is really offering to blue collar white voters.

It becomes an almost existential question: is false hope better than none at all?

**feeder**

gorgon wrote:
feeder wrote:
Ever wondered how so many people can vote for the policies that consistently screw them over?

Honestly, I think the issue for at least some of the Trump voters is that no one's policies really seem to be helping them.

I've been thinking about my family and how some of them probably represent the kind of folks supporting Trump. One side was mostly all coal miners, but that's almost completely dried up around their small coal town, which is crumbling now. I'm sure they would have voted Democrat back in the day because of their UMW ties. But the coal jobs are gone now, and to them the Democratic party probably seems to care more about both the inner cities and college educated, urban/suburban voters than small town America. And what has the mainstream GOP and their tax cuts for the wealthiest ever done for their towns?

Enter Trump. At least he isn't ignoring them like everyone else, right? So they latched onto him. And while there's plenty of deplorable things about Trump and some of his supporters, do they ALL deserve to be called deplorable for gravitating to the one candidate who seems to understand their pain (as ridiculous as that may seem)? I'd probably resent Hillary like crazy for that if I was in their shoes. And I'd probably be fed up with the mainstream of both parties.

It's not really about returning to some past version of America -- I think they just want some opportunity and some sense of a future beyond watching their town fall apart.

I suppose in the case of Trump you're right. I don't want to disparage your family members but I don't see how someone can pay attention to anything Trump says for more than five minutes and think he is for the little guy (or anyone other than himself).

My point was more poor, under educated GOP voters in general. GOP policy consistently screws them over and they keep voting for them anyway. It's kind of amazing.

It seems to me that blue collar voters who are disillusioned with the Dems would find a natural home with Johnson and his merry band of assorted looney tunes, rather than Trump.

**Polonius**

I think it's pretty natural to draw a line between trade deals and manufacturing job losses, and environmental policies and mining/logging job losses.

It's not a completely correct line, but it's also not completely incorrect.

Libretarians are just well off republicans that want lower taxes and legal vices.

**Prestor Jon**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
I agree that blaming the faults of ACA on the GOP isn't really accurate. Yes, it would likely have been better if they got engaged but that doesn't excuse mistakes made by the Democrats. What's important is that making mistakes in a bill is bad but excusable, even the Constitution has amendments after all. Taking the attitude of no cooperation no matter what is not.

Mostly agree on the ACA. Bad legislation is sometimes excusable but is most often just the result of poor planning/research, political pandering, lobbyist/special interest money and short sighted political self interest. The Democrats who passed the ACA didn't realize it had flaws then they're incompetent, a lot of them openly acknowledged the flaws they just deemed it good enough to be worth passing.

Completely agree on obstructionism. If the GOP are opposed to a legislative agenda they should vote against it, filibuster it, propose counter legislation etc. as active participants in the legislative process. Opposing legislation you disagree with is part of the political process but it's not the only part and not the only worthwhile part. The GOP needed to stand for something other than standing against Obama/Democrats, they chose to oppose everything and stand for essentially nothing and lost control of their party as a result.

**Polonius**

A lot of the complaints against career politicians ignores the fact that career politicians tend to be far more bipartisan and likely to compromise. A lot of the ideological refusal to compromise in Congress has been from relatively newer members.

For the system to work, you simply need compromise, and compromise requires both trust, and fear of consequences if nothing is done.

**The Airman**

Here's to hoping we avoid nuclear war with the Russians by making the decision to swallow a horse pill instead of a cyanide tablet.

If only the Bernster was still running instead of Nuclear Hillary or Business Carrot.

**Ustrello**

The Airman wrote:
Here's to hoping we avoid nuclear war with the Russians by making the decision to swallow a horse pill instead of a cyanide tablet.

If only the Bernster was still running instead of Nuclear Hillary or Business Carrot.

Only a fool would believe that

**feeder**

The Airman wrote:
Here's to hoping we avoid nuclear war with the Russians by making the decision to swallow a horse pill instead of a cyanide tablet.

If only the Bernster was still running instead of Nuclear Hillary or Business Carrot.

I don't think Bernie would do as well vs the Human Dumpster Fire. Socialism is a terrifying spectre to many Americans.

"He might sexually assault women, but at least he doesn't want to give kids free college education!"

**The Airman**

Ustrello wrote:
The Airman wrote:
Here's to hoping we avoid nuclear war with the Russians by making the decision to swallow a horse pill instead of a cyanide tablet.

If only the Bernster was still running instead of Nuclear Hillary or Business Carrot.

Only a fool would believe that

"What is a no fly zone for 500, Alex "

I'd rather not have the world burn just to spite a loudmouth.

**sirlynchmob**

The Airman wrote:
Ustrello wrote:
The Airman wrote:
Here's to hoping we avoid nuclear war with the Russians by making the decision to swallow a horse pill instead of a cyanide tablet.

If only the Bernster was still running instead of Nuclear Hillary or Business Carrot.

Only a fool would believe that

"What is a no fly zone for 500, Alex "

I'd rather not have the world burn just to spite a loudmouth.

There was a time america stood up to russia, not rolled over and let them dictate our next president. Once russia endorced trump, anyone still voting for him is a communist sympathizer. The only american thing to do now is vote for hillary as a big FU to russia. if we start rolling over for them now, it will never end.

**The Airman**

sirlynchmob wrote:
The Airman wrote:
Ustrello wrote:
The Airman wrote:
Here's to hoping we avoid nuclear war with the Russians by making the decision to swallow a horse pill instead of a cyanide tablet.

If only the Bernster was still running instead of Nuclear Hillary or Business Carrot.

Only a fool would believe that

"What is a no fly zone for 500, Alex "

I'd rather not have the world burn just to spite a loudmouth.

There was a time america stood up to russia, not rolled over and let them dictate our next president. Once russia endorced trump, anyone still voting for him is a communist sympathizer. The only american thing to do now is vote for hillary as a big FU to russia. if we start rolling over for them now, it will never end.

Honestly we are the baddies right now with Syria, of which is an ally to Russia. All Russia wants is for us to leave them and their oil pipelines alone. After all why do you think we are there in the first place? We Americans are notoriously bad at grasping geopolitics because we can't see past our own noses.

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

**skyth**

Trump has made a career out of stepping on the little guy. It boggles the mind that people think that he won't support policies to make it easier for him and people like him to step on more little guys.

**feeder**

The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

**sirlynchmob**

I'm really loving the IDGAF Obama

http://www.vibe.com/2016/10/obama-removes-ban-on-cuban-cigars-and-rum/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1476465781

The Obama administration announced Friday a new round of executive actions designed to increase trade and travel with the communist island. And this is the one many Americans have been waiting for — no more restrictions on the island’s famed rum and cigars.

smoke em if you got em, get em if you don't

**A Town Called Malus**

sirlynchmob wrote:
I'm really loving the IDGAF Obama

http://www.vibe.com/2016/10/obama-removes-ban-on-cuban-cigars-and-rum/?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#link_time=1476465781

The Obama administration announced Friday a new round of executive actions designed to increase trade and travel with the communist island. And this is the one many Americans have been waiting for — no more restrictions on the island’s famed rum and cigars.

smoke em if you got em, get em if you don't

Interesting story, not sure if true or not, but apparently Kennedy tried to get Cuban Cigars exempted from the embargo. When it became apparent that was impossible he ordered several boxes before signing the bill.

Probably not a real story but oh well, still cool

**The Airman**

feeder wrote:
The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

When you corner a bear and threaten action, don't be surprised when it wants to maul you if you do actually carry out said action. I don't buy the MSM narrative about Trump as the Wikileaks documents prove partisan collusion against Trump.

He's not the greatest/worst ever but he actually wants to work with Russia instead of confirming the Kremlin's narrative that we want to attack them. You should perhaps look up what a no fly zone is and our government's strategy in Syria before crapping on Trump.

Edit: Damn autocorrect.

**Co'tor Shas**

The Airman wrote:
feeder wrote:
The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

When you corner a bear and threaten action, don't be surprised when it wants to maul you if you do actually carry out said action. I don't buy the MSM narrative about Trump as the Wikileaks documents prove partisan collusion against Trump.

He's not the greatest/worst ever but he actually wants to work with Russia instead of confirming the Kremlin's narrative that we want to attack them. You should perhaps look up what a no fly zone is and our government's strategy in Syria before crapping on Trump.

Edit: Damn autocorrect.

And what, you think Russia is going to nuke us to protect Assad? That they'll go to war over Syria?

Putin is an ambitious man, who wants his country to be a great power again. He's not stupid.

**A Town Called Malus**

The Airman wrote:
feeder wrote:
The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

When you corner a bear and threaten action, don't be surprised when it wants to maul you if you do actually carry out said action. I don't buy the MSM narrative about Trump as the Wikileaks documents prove partisan collusion against Trump.

He's not the greatest/worst ever but he actually wants to work with Russia instead of confirming the Kremlin's narrative that we want to attack them. You should perhaps look up what a no fly zone is and our government's strategy in Syria before crapping on Trump.

Edit: Damn autocorrect.

By work with russia you mean turn a blind eye to all of Russias actions.

**d-usa**

skyth wrote:
Trump has made a career out of stepping on the little guy. It boggles the mind that people think that he won't support policies to make it easier for him and people like him to step on more little guys.

I think that part of the reason why a lot of people that are actually benefiting from safety nets consistently vote for the party that hates those safety nets is that they don't consider themselves as little guys. They don't look at themselves as poor people who benefit from those safety nets, they see themselves as the next business owner and they just haven't had their big break yet. The American Dream is real to them, and they know that they are just one small step away from making it a reality. Benefits and safety nets are for the people who are not willing to chase after that dream, but they haven't given up on it yet. Voting to tax higher income to pay for safety nets and to regulate businesses just means that they are voting to tax their own bright futures and regulations just stop them from being able to achieve the American Dream in the future because their small business got regulated away before it ever happened.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Co'tor Shas wrote:
The Airman wrote:
feeder wrote:
The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

When you corner a bear and threaten action, don't be surprised when it wants to maul you if you do actually carry out said action. I don't buy the MSM narrative about Trump as the Wikileaks documents prove partisan collusion against Trump.

He's not the greatest/worst ever but he actually wants to work with Russia instead of confirming the Kremlin's narrative that we want to attack them. You should perhaps look up what a no fly zone is and our government's strategy in Syria before crapping on Trump.

Edit: Damn autocorrect.

And what, you think Russia is going to nuke us to protect Assad? That they'll go to war over Syria?

Putin is an ambitious man, who wants his country to be a great power again. He's not stupid.

Putin plays for his domestic audience with his international tough guy act the same way Trump plays to his.

**Co'tor Shas**

Also, wasn't she talking about an international no fly zone? As in one that Russia is in on?

**the Signless**

feeder wrote:
The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

no, not Russia. We all know the Trump has a special place in his heart for Putin.

I would be more worried about him destabilising East Asia with his frequent and bizarre accusations of China and his suggestions that the United States could arm allies with nuclear weapons. The region is approaching a volatile time with projected slow downs of Chinese economic growth which they are trying to distract the populace from by making bolder and bolder moves in the South China sea and whip up some good, old fashioned nationalism. Coupled with North Korea's growing nuclear weapons program and missile tests, the next few presidencies will have effects on the region for decades to come.

I have always been partial to Fallout: New Vegas outfits though.

**The Airman**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
The Airman wrote:
feeder wrote:
The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

When you corner a bear and threaten action, don't be surprised when it wants to maul you if you do actually carry out said action. I don't buy the MSM narrative about Trump as the Wikileaks documents prove partisan collusion against Trump.

He's not the greatest/worst ever but he actually wants to work with Russia instead of confirming the Kremlin's narrative that we want to attack them. You should perhaps look up what a no fly zone is and our government's strategy in Syria before crapping on Trump.

Edit: Damn autocorrect.

And what, you think Russia is going to nuke us to protect Assad? That they'll go to war over Syria?

Putin is an ambitious man, who wants his country to be a great power again. He's not stupid.

They said they would shoot down any American aircraft that fired upon Syrian government forces. They have the capability of doing this, and we also run the risk of striking embedded Russian troops. It's not difficult to connect the dots here.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Airman wrote:
feeder wrote:
The Airman wrote:

A vote for Hillary is a continuation of aggression towards Russia, and a cyanide tablet.

I am comfortable saying this is alarmist hyperbole. Hils didn't spend her life building a career in politics just to push the big red button on her first day.

Narcissist Racist Gakstain Sex Fondler, on the other hand, I can see kicking off a worldwide Fallout 4 cosplay because Putin doesn't love him back.

When you corner a bear and threaten action, don't be surprised when it wants to maul you if you do actually carry out said action. I don't buy the MSM narrative about Trump as the Wikileaks documents prove partisan collusion against Trump.

He's not the greatest/worst ever but he actually wants to work with Russia instead of confirming the Kremlin's narrative that we want to attack them. You should perhaps look up what a no fly zone is and our government's strategy in Syria before crapping on Trump.

Edit: Damn autocorrect.

By work with russia you mean turn a blind eye to all of Russias actions.

Neither the US nor Russia is perfect and we balls up just as much as they do. This time we're threatening global peace over some damn oil deals.

Co'tor Shas wrote:Also, wasn't she talking about an international no fly zone? As in one that Russia is in on?

A Syrian no fly zone. We would arrive uninvited and try to enforce it upon Syrian and Russian war birds. That is insane warmongering, and to understand the stupidity of it listen to Senator Graham in his latest hearing on our military's efforts in Syria. Seriously, he didn't seem to grasp that in order to enforce such a thing you'd have to go to war with both parties in the region.

**A Town Called Malus**

The issue is that many of Russias recent actions have not been mistakes. They didn't accidentally annex the Crimea.

**Co'tor Shas**

The Airman wrote:
They said they would shoot down any American aircraft that fired upon Syrian government forces. They have the capability of doing this, and we also run the risk of striking embedded Russian troops. It's not difficult to connect the dots here.

We've already hit Syrian forces by accident (or possible 'accident', it's hard to tell with the military). And Russia isn't about to start a war over fething Syria. It's certainly not the best plan, and I doubt it will actually happen (it's a waste of resources and won't actually do anything), but it's not going to start a war. Things are much calmer now then compared to the cold war, and we've had far worse during the height of the cold war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Don't give me gak about it starting a war. That is fear-mongering.

A Syrian no fly zone. We would arrive uninvited and try to enforce it upon Syrian and Russian war birds. That is insane warmongering, and to understand the stupidity of it listen to Senator Graham in his latest hearing on our military's efforts in Syria. Seriously, he didn't seem to grasp that in order to enforce such a thing you'd have to go to war with both parties in the region.

You appear to have misunderstood. IIRC, she was talking about a no-fly-zone enforced in conjunction with the Russians.

**The Airman**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
The Airman wrote:
They said they would shoot down any American aircraft that fired upon Syrian government forces. They have the capability of doing this, and we also run the risk of striking embedded Russian troops. It's not difficult to connect the dots here.

We've already hit Syrian forces by accident (or possible 'accident', it's hard to tell with the military). And Russia isn't about to start a war over fething Syria. It's certainly not the best plan, and I doubt it will actually happen (it's a waste of resources and won't actually do anything), but it's not going to start a war. Things are much calmer now then compared to the cold war, and we've had far worse during the height of the cold war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Don't give me gak about it starting a war. That is fear-mongering.

A Syrian no fly zone. We would arrive uninvited and try to enforce it upon Syrian and Russian war birds. That is insane warmongering, and to understand the stupidity of it listen to Senator Graham in his latest hearing on our military's efforts in Syria. Seriously, he didn't seem to grasp that in order to enforce such a thing you'd have to go to war with both parties in the region.

You appear to have misunderstood. IIRC, she was talking about a no-fly-zone enforced in conjunction with the Russians.

You should perhaps check your dates. We bombed Syrian troops and the Russians told us afterwards they would shoot down our birds. They have the capability, and I wouldn't call them on their bluff. Read up on your current events to see that they're more scared of us than we are of them, and they're staging mobile ballistic missile platforms in range of European capitals to warn us off. This is not warmongering. This is reality. If you have such a death wish don't drag the planet down with you

Secondly Russia would not agree with a no fly zone with the US. They are welcome there and we are not.

**Co'tor Shas**

The Airman wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
The Airman wrote:
They said they would shoot down any American aircraft that fired upon Syrian government forces. They have the capability of doing this, and we also run the risk of striking embedded Russian troops. It's not difficult to connect the dots here.

We've already hit Syrian forces by accident (or possible 'accident', it's hard to tell with the military). And Russia isn't about to start a war over fething Syria. It's certainly not the best plan, and I doubt it will actually happen (it's a waste of resources and won't actually do anything), but it's not going to start a war. Things are much calmer now then compared to the cold war, and we've had far worse during the height of the cold war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Don't give me gak about it starting a war. That is fear-mongering.

A Syrian no fly zone. We would arrive uninvited and try to enforce it upon Syrian and Russian war birds. That is insane warmongering, and to understand the stupidity of it listen to Senator Graham in his latest hearing on our military's efforts in Syria. Seriously, he didn't seem to grasp that in order to enforce such a thing you'd have to go to war with both parties in the region.

You appear to have misunderstood. IIRC, she was talking about a no-fly-zone enforced in conjunction with the Russians.

You should perhaps check your dates. We bombed Syrian troops and the Russians told us afterwards they would shoot down our birds. They have the capability, and I wouldn't call them on their bluff. Read up on your current events to see that they're more scared of us than we are of them, and they're staging mobile ballistic missile platforms in range of European capitals to warn us off. This is not warmongering. This is reality. If you have such a death wish don't drag the planet down with you

What's reality? That Russia and the US constantly posture at each other? This is nothing new. This has been going on since the cold war, and this is pretty tame compared to what has happened. Again, I think it's a stupid idea, but it's not going to start a war. Russia have nothing to gain from a war with the US. The whole point of this is to show that Russia can project power and boots Putin's poll numbers.

And it takes two to make a war. Unless you are proposing that Clinton will declare war Russia retaliates in defense of it's ally.

Secondly Russia would not agree with a no fly zone with the US. They are welcome there and we are not.

That would be a question for Clinton, and I did say it was a stupid idea. Just not a a world ending one.

**sirlynchmob**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's reality? That Russia and the US constantly posture at each other? This is nothing new. This has been going on since the cold war, and this is pretty tame compared to what has happened. Again, I think it's a stupid idea, but it's not going to start a war. Russia have nothing to gain from a war with the US. The whole point of this is to show that Russia can project power and boots Putin's poll numbers.

And it takes two to make a war. Unless you are proposing that Clinton will declare war Russia retaliates in defense of it's ally.

It might not be a direct war, but it could end up being a proxy war like viet nam. Where two super power fight it out in some piss ant country no one really cares about, except the locals.

**Co'tor Shas**

sirlynchmob wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's reality? That Russia and the US constantly posture at each other? This is nothing new. This has been going on since the cold war, and this is pretty tame compared to what has happened. Again, I think it's a stupid idea, but it's not going to start a war. Russia have nothing to gain from a war with the US. The whole point of this is to show that Russia can project power and boots Putin's poll numbers.

And it takes two to make a war. Unless you are proposing that Clinton will declare war Russia retaliates in defense of it's ally.

It might not be a direct war, but it could end up being a proxy war like viet nam. Where two super power fight it out in some piss ant country no one really cares about, except the locals.

So like what's happening in Syria right now?

**sirlynchmob**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's reality? That Russia and the US constantly posture at each other? This is nothing new. This has been going on since the cold war, and this is pretty tame compared to what has happened. Again, I think it's a stupid idea, but it's not going to start a war. Russia have nothing to gain from a war with the US. The whole point of this is to show that Russia can project power and boots Putin's poll numbers.

And it takes two to make a war. Unless you are proposing that Clinton will declare war Russia retaliates in defense of it's ally.

It might not be a direct war, but it could end up being a proxy war like viet nam. Where two super power fight it out in some piss ant country no one really cares about, except the locals.

So like what's happening in Syria right now?

yes, and now is the time for a seasoned diplomat, not some hot head who will support whatever side has the hottest wife.

**jasper76**

Wow...you plug out for a couple days, and when you plug back in, a full unit of Space Marines have accused Donald Trump of sexual assault.