Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Well, 4 more years of not going Socialist. I can be happy about that, at least. If there is any justice in the world, Trump will wind up leaving office and Pence will take over. I know he's not very popular because of the Religious Freedom Act, but fiscally Indiana has been much better off than most of her neighbors.
“We can’t let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Let’s fight like hell and stop this great and disgusting injustice! The world is laughing at us.”
You'd be forgiven for thinking these have all been made in the past few hours, but they're all from 2012 when Obama won (the third one is from 2008 I believe). The last one is from Trump himself in 2012.
(snip)
People need to grow some fething perspective.
Well, the world is laughing at us, but it's nervous uncomfortable laughter.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Are you seriously defending the intelligence of your average anti-Semitic White Nationalist voter?
Hehe, oh that's a rich one: "Anti-Semitic Posts, Many From Trump Supporters, Surge on Twitter". My goodness, I wonder who those that fell outside of the 'many' were supporting...
What's fascinating is you haven't actually provided any evidence of any animus at all on the part of Trump: you've merely claimed he's taking advantage of the truly, easily gulled.
I would, however, quibble with the idea that Trump is particularly attractive to Jew Haters: it has been established that the largest concentrations of anti Jewish animus are in groups that are traditional members of the Democratic coalition. This, in no small part, explains the extraordinary erosion of support for Israel among Democrats but not Republicans.
But then again, no doubt this is another part of Trumps con, eh?
Are you seriously defending the intelligence of your average anti-Semitic White Nationalist voter?
Hehe, oh that's a rich one: "Anti-Semitic Posts, Many From Trump Supporters, Surge on Twitter". My goodness, I wonder who those that fell outside of the 'many' were supporting...
What's fascinating is you haven't actually provided any evidence of any animus at all on the part of Trump: you've merely claimed he's taking advantage of the truly, easily gulled.
I would, however, quibble with the idea that Trump is particularly attractive to Jew Haters: it has been established that the largest concentrations of anti Jewish animus are in groups that are traditional members of the Democratic coalition. This, in no small part, explains the extraordinary erosion of support for Israel among Democrats but not Republicans.
But then again, no doubt this is another part of Trumps con, eh?
The anti Semitic groups that endorsed him must have tricked me, my mistake.
Buzzsaw wrote: support for Israel among Democrats but not Republicans.
Anti-semitism has been out of the American political mainstream since the Holocaust (literally died overnight relatively speaking). Not like they all disappeared on changed their minds or anything, their opinions just had little political weight and little voice.
But of course if we pretend opposition to Israel automatically = anti-semitism I suppose we can just ignore facts and pretend whatever we want is true.
Are you seriously defending the intelligence of your average anti-Semitic White Nationalist voter?
Hehe, oh that's a rich one: "Anti-Semitic Posts, Many From Trump Supporters, Surge on Twitter". My goodness, I wonder who those that fell outside of the 'many' were supporting...
What's fascinating is you haven't actually provided any evidence of any animus at all on the part of Trump: you've merely claimed he's taking advantage of the truly, easily gulled.
I would, however, quibble with the idea that Trump is particularly attractive to Jew Haters: it has been established that the largest concentrations of anti Jewish animus are in groups that are traditional members of the Democratic coalition. This, in no small part, explains the extraordinary erosion of support for Israel among Democrats but not Republicans.
But then again, no doubt this is another part of Trumps con, eh?
The anti Semitic groups that endorsed him must have tricked me, my mistake.
Tricked you into what, exactly? You keep making this guilt by association argument that requires us to ignore his much, much closer associations in order to credit tangential associations.
What, exactly, do you think he is going to do about 'the Jewish Question' that has you worried?
My informed guess is he is going to do absolutely nothing.
Which was going to happen, no matter what. Clinton is not a socialist.
I know he's not very popular because of the Religious Freedom Act, but fiscally Indiana has been much better off than most of her neighbors.
Yeah, screw the LGBT people, they're just collateral damage of making sure business is profitable enough. Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, you know.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Buzzsaw wrote: support for Israel among Democrats but not Republicans.
Anti-semitism has been out of the American political mainstream since the Holocaust (literally died overnight relatively speaking). Not like they all disappeared on changed their minds or anything, their opinions just had little political weight and little voice.
But of course if we pretend opposition to Israel automatically = anti-semitism I suppose we can just ignore facts and pretend whatever we want is true.
Again, which means... what?
Listen, I'm an orthodox Jew, if you have some hidden knowledge about precipitous changes to the state of Jews in this country, I'd rather like to hear about it.
d-usa wrote: So who will become the face of the Democratic Party and the shift to the left? Clinton is done, Bernie and Biden are old, so who is the future?
Warren 2020?
Warren is old and sucks at the nuts and bolts of campaigning. Her convention speech was probably the dullest moment. Democrats have a problem there, because even in the 2004 debacle, you had Obama's convention speech that announced him as the next big thing. There wasn't anything like that this time.
Still, Bill Clinton came out of pretty much nowhere. So did Trump for that matter. 4 years is a long time to build a national profile.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
It doesn't matter what he does. He pandered to anti-Semitic groups who now feel empowered. I worry about what they will do.
My feelings and opinionsare pretty evident from the words I typed in my posts. It's clear that you are not interested in what they actually say, so we can probably stop replying to each other.
sebster wrote: I'm guessing there'll be a big tax cut for the rich, no discussion about the deficit that will cause, and probably not much else.
That's my guess too. I feel sorry for all the working people who bought the idea that slashing corporation tax would bring industry back to the US. Even if the tax breaks were attractive enough for companies to want to be based in the US, all that's likely to happen is they'd move a small HQ office to funnel their profits though, and leave all their industry in Asia. Corporations inherently give as little money to the government and employees as they can get away with. All this tax cut will do is take public money away, and hand it over to corporations for doing what they were going to do anyway. Working people will never see any of it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/09 09:19:45
LordofHats wrote: And yes. Of course people are saying Trump can turn out badly for Jews. He got the support of the KKK (anti-semitic), and the American Nazi Party (anti-semitic). What Trump himself thinks isn't the end all of that issue. Trump has politically legitimized (regardless of his intentions) white nationalism in a new era. One where many hoped that such undercurrents in US politics were slowly dying.
Exactly. Trump himself might not be an immediate threat to the Jews, but what he did is reach out to the Nazis and KKK and all those other white supremacist deplorables and say "you guys are welcome in my party, let's make sure your voice is heard". And now we're left with hoping that the republican party can keep control of these groups and not let them take advantage of their new power.
And that's in addition to the fact that Trump is perfectly happy to apply white supremacist ideas to other groups. The fact that he isn't targeting Jews specifically does not negate the rest of what he has said.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/09 09:22:07
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
d-usa wrote: It doesn't matter what he does. He pandered to anti-Semitic groups who now feel empowered. I worry about what they will do.
My feelings and opinionsare pretty evident from the words I typed in my posts. It's clear that you are not interested in what they actually say, so we can probably stop replying to each other.
You misunderstand: I would be interested in what you have to say if, indeed, you had something to say.
By the by, it's worth pointing out that, as a Jew, I fundamentally reject the notion that "It doesn't matter what he does." It matters a very great deal to me, both practically and morally.
Ironically, you seem to be taking offense on my behalf, in a circumstance where I would not take offense.
Let me be completely clear: it is farcical to imagine that White Nationalists are going to suddenly have free reign, to go galloping across the American plains. I think it's vastly more likely that Trump, who has almost certainly clinched the Orthodox Jewish vote, will be the most philosemetic president in decades (and likely most pro-Israel, which is separate to be sure).
shasolenzabi wrote: nd her looking to make social security retirement a investor/ponzi scheme, just so her Wall street buddies could sink their fangs into that as well charging their crazy fees.
...
You do realize that privatizing social security has been a republican policy proposal, right? And now we just handed the entire federal government to the republican party.
I am speaking of the deal Clinton(Bill) had on the table before his impeachment issues came up to privatize social security, so, the Clintons would have Hillary finish that, but if he does not run in 202, maybe they will push Chelsea upon us? Republicans could not actually get such done, even when they had the majority, but it took Clinton to work through making a bunch of things go through. It is all there on record, Clintons are Republicans in Democrats clothes, and under all of that, they are not nice people to boot.
Quite frankly, I hope the defeat Hillary got will just have urged the Clintons to just go away, but I doubt that they will.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/09 09:26:13
"Your mumblings are awakening the sleeping Dragon, be wary when meddling the affairs of Dragons, for thou art tasty and go good with either ketchup or chocolate. "
Dragons fear nothing, if it acts up, we breath magic fire that turns them into marshmallow peeps. We leaguers only cry rivets!
BrotherGecko wrote: It doesn't matter if the base wants what the party wants because they will still vote for them. Trump was supposed to be their feth you vote to the establishment and then they secured the establishment. We have also seen that a personality is all that matters, not what they stand on. Trump could change his mind after inauguration and it won't matter.
Yeah, there's certainly a good argument that it was never about what Trump said (because outside of insults and random weirdness he didn't actually say much, and generally contradicted what he did say). Attitude is what matters. It seems the winner as far back as Carter was the candidate with the bigger, more understandable personality.
Trump was a lying gak, but you knew that and saw him present that openly. Clinton... well Clinton never really presented a personality of any kind. Maybe that counts more than policy, or being cohesive, or being good, or anything else. If that's true holy gak America maybe all the mean things people say about you are true.
The GOP is doing good tonight. Even if they fail 4 years I don't see them in bad shape.
Certainly the failure of black and hispanic voters to turn out in large numbers shows that the overt racism of Trump isn't that big a deal as many people had assumed.
feth me, Ted Cruz might have been right. Appealing to the extremes might be the winning strategy.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
LordofHats wrote: And yes. Of course people are saying Trump can turn out badly for Jews. He got the support of the KKK (anti-semitic), and the American Nazi Party (anti-semitic). What Trump himself thinks isn't the end all of that issue. Trump has politically legitimized (regardless of his intentions) white nationalism in a new era. One where many hoped that such undercurrents in US politics were slowly dying.
Exactly. Trump himself might not be an immediate threat to the Jews, but what he did is reach out to the Nazis and KKK and all those other white supremacist deplorables and say "you guys are welcome in my party, let's make sure your voice is heard". And now we're left with hoping that the republican party can keep control of these groups and not let them take advantage of their new power.
Do tell. How exactly will this threat manifest?
What "power", exactly, do you think these groups will have? Think Trump will, in the pattern of Woodrow Wilson, segregate the federal workforce?
tneva82 wrote: You are talking about guy who has already asked why they haven't already been used!
Why you think he wouldn't be willing to use them since they should have been already used according to him?
There's a lot more involved in launching a nuke that one guy behind a desk... or do you really think he has a map and a big red button that he can use whenever he wants?
Ouze wrote: Well, the world is laughing at us, but it's nervous uncomfortable laughter.
You kinda glanced over the point I was making, but ok...
Buzzsaw wrote: Let me be completely clear: it is farcical to imagine that White Nationalists are going to suddenly have free reign, to go galloping across the American plains.
No, it's an entirely reasonable fear. Trump won this election with a campaign built on white supremacist ideas, and demonstrated to the republican party that the deplorables bring enough votes to win elections even as a candidate who abandoned some conventional republican policy positions. If you're considering strategy for the next election it's going to be very hard to resist the temptation to try to use the white supremacist vote again by giving them some of what they want.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
tneva82 wrote: You are talking about guy who has already asked why they haven't already been used!
Why you think he wouldn't be willing to use them since they should have been already used according to him?
There's a lot more involved in launching a nuke that one guy behind a desk... or do you really think he has a map and a big red button that he can use whenever he wants?
Not to be churlish, but one can't help wonder where this concern was while Pres "Really Good at Killing People" Obama was supervising drone strikes.
Buzzsaw wrote: Do tell. How exactly will this threat manifest?
What "power", exactly, do you think these groups will have? Think Trump will, in the pattern of Woodrow Wilson, segregate the federal workforce?
The obvious starting points:
1) Enforcement of laws based on racial bias. Excluding Muslim immigrants, mass deportations of illegal immigrants where you can pretty well guarantee that the target isn't going to be white Europeans over-staying their tourist visas, etc. They can't openly say "segregation is back", but they can set their priorities in ways that disproportionately target non-white people.
2) Expansion of "religious freedom" laws to allow legalized discrimination. Why have the federal government get their own hands dirty when they can just sit back and let the deplorables do whatever they want? And with an impending supreme court majority there's a very real danger that these laws would be upheld in court when they're inevitably challenged.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Buzzsaw wrote: Let me be completely clear: it is farcical to imagine that White Nationalists are going to suddenly have free reign, to go galloping across the American plains.
No, it's an entirely reasonable fear. Trump won this election with a campaign built on white supremacist ideas, and demonstrated to the republican party that the deplorables bring enough votes to win elections even as a candidate who abandoned some conventional republican policy positions. If you're considering strategy for the next election it's going to be very hard to resist the temptation to try to use the white supremacist vote again by giving them some of what they want.
Hahahahahahahah!
Oh, you were serious.
Well, no doubt we'll be having these "white supremacist" ideas enumerated any moment now... I do look forward to apply for a position at the revitalized Department of Race Hygiene.
Again: what will they be given? What taste of the power is going to... who, again?
H.B.M.C. wrote: There's a lot more involved in launching a nuke that one guy behind a desk... or do you really think he has a map and a big red button that he can use whenever he wants?
I hardly consider "have a mutiny where the military refuses lawful orders and then refuses the civilian government's attempts to restore control" to be an optimistic future. It's quite possible that the use of nukes would be avoided, but that's the kind of scenario that ends in a military coup and the destruction of democracy.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Buzzsaw wrote: Do tell. How exactly will this threat manifest?
What "power", exactly, do you think these groups will have? Think Trump will, in the pattern of Woodrow Wilson, segregate the federal workforce?
The obvious starting points:
1) Enforcement of laws based on racial bias. Excluding Muslim immigrants, mass deportations of illegal immigrants where you can pretty well guarantee that the target isn't going to be white Europeans over-staying their tourist visas, etc. They can't openly say "segregation is back", but they can set their priorities in ways that disproportionately target non-white people.
Ah, that great tragedy that comes from enforcing the law. If the angels would weep surely the desert would flood...
Peregrine wrote: 2) Expansion of "religious freedom" laws to allow legalized discrimination. Why have the federal government get their own hands dirty when they can just sit back and let the deplorables do whatever they want? And with an impending supreme court majority there's a very real danger that these laws would be upheld in court when they're inevitably challenged.
It's fascinating. At once we're to believe that Trump will be a dangerous panderer to Jew haters, and in the next moment he will be expanding the protections that religious minorities (such as myself) have against state coercion.
Buzzsaw wrote: I do look forward to apply for a position at the revitalized Department of Race Hygiene.
Just make sure you say you're doing it because Jesus told you to, then it's ok.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: I have kept largely out of this conversation while reading it from the beginning because as an American this is deeply important to me. Now that it is all over I just wanted to voice my frustrations and observations...
I think that this election shows that we have finally reached the breaking point of ignoring so many of the realities that are facing so many people in America.
Spoiler:
People voted because they were sick of the status quo, they are sick of the fact that the middle class is in free fall, that industry is leaving this country and we are left with so many unemployed or under employed citizens. It is my personal belief that Trump is not going to fix any of these issues, but he made some bold statements about how these were things he was going to fight and in doing so won over so many people who were angry at the state of the country. You can tell people all day long how much better things were getting under Obama but when most people didn't see any of that change in their lives it was easy for them to ignore it. Almost all of the economic recovery has been focused at the top, while very few people were seeing much if any benefit from it. A vote for Trump was more symbolic than anything. Most Trump supporters I have talked to were not really all that enthusiastic about him but they were even more disgusted with Hillary because she does for better or worse represent a very inside politician who in their eyes would have just kept things the way that they are.
It is almost like the Obama effect. Many people voted for Obama because he was a young, short termed politician who represented change to so many people that wanted this country to change its course. Whether you like him or not he was exactly what Trump was, a vote for the disenfranchised and forgotten that want things to get better. There are so many people who feel like they have been left behind in this country, myself included. I recently had to leave the industry I had spent ten years working in and spent $50k on a degree for because there was no future for myself and my family in it. I have felt hopeless for most of my adult life because I just don't see things getting better for myself, my friends, or anyone around me. I didn't vote for Trump. I could not stomach him and you know what? Hillary was really not much better when it came to the things I want to see changed. She was a much better option in my opinion but she wasn't a good option.
I do not like Trump one bit but I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt that all his bluster and scandalous messages were all just bravado to energize his base. I have to give him the benefit of the doubt because doing anything else is far to depressing and I have to hold some kind of hope that maybe some good can come out of this situation. Maybe Trump wasn't lying when he said he wanted to restructure the tax code because it benefited the rich and they he knew better than anyone because he took advantage of it. Maybe he really can bring about positive changes in this field. I think we can all safely agree that his wall proposition is DOA because there is no way to get the entirety of government to agree to the almost war like methods needed to force Mexico to pay. His inflaming rhetoric is likely just that, all talk. Trump knows exactly what to say and when to say it and I have no doubt that half the crap that he said was just to energize his base.
I really wish that we as Americans could stop with this childish cheerleading where one side rubs it in the face of the other when they win. I really wish that we could all stop acting like anyone who disagrees with them wants to destroy the country or even the world. We are all human beings, we all have more in common at the end of the day then we have that separates us and I really want us to focus on those things we have in common. Democrats have pie in the sky ideals about how to save the world with little regard to the realities that they face. Republicans are so ground in reality that they are hesitant to even think about what could be rather than what is.
We need Democrats to put forth their grand ideas and for Republicans to ground them in reality. That is working together, that is cooperation. When was the last time we had something even remotely this close? It is all just bitter anger at one another, blame being slung at the opposition without stopping for a second to realize that they are talking to a human being with a family, hopes and dreams, and all they want is to be heard.
Let's be honest here, Trump doesn't have the power to do almost anything that he has put forth. It was all pandering like all presidents have done in the past, grand standing on issues that end up being forgotten and tossed aside. With that in mind, can we please just come together and make the best of what we have been given?
sebster wrote: I'm guessing there'll be a big tax cut for the rich, no discussion about the deficit that will cause, and probably not much else.
That's my guess too. I feel sorry for all the working people who bought the idea that slashing corporation tax would bring industry back to the US. Even if the tax breaks were attractive enough for companies to want to be based in the US, all that's likely to happen is they'd move a small HQ office to funnel their profits though, and leave all their industry in Asia. Corporations inherently give as little money to the government and employees as they can get away with. All this tax cut will do is take public money away, and hand it over to corporations for doing what they were going to do anyway. Working people will never see any of it.
I doubt even that will happen. What many of these people have failed to realise is that most manufacturers have not moved overseas, either from the US or he UK. In both cases HQs have remained as well, because what big business likes more than anything is stability. They are happy to pay higher tax for stability. There will be some shuffling around of corporate entities to fiddle exactly where tax is paid, but that won't make any difference. The manufacturing that has moved is highly labour intensive stuff like fabric manufacturers or high pollution stuff like bulk chemical, that won't move back because tax won't effect environmental regulations nor will it touch the fact that you can pay someone in the Far East or India 5% of what you can pay them in the US or Europe. Most manucturing jobs have not been lost overseas, but to mechanisation. Lower taxes will, if anything, speed this up as that extra money will be invested in to further efficiencies. The likely reductions in labour laws in the US and UK will probably also help. If anything the average worker will be worse off.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
