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 BigWaaagh wrote:
This shoe finally dropped, officially, and I think back to when they called WJC "Slick Willy". They're going to have to go to a whole new slickness level for Donnie and his operatings...


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-foundation-apparently-admits-to-violating-ban-on-%e2%80%98self-dealing%e2%80%99-new-filing-to-irs-shows/ar-AAkCdCi?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=ASUDHP

Trump isn't slick. He just has enough of an audience that for whatever reasons ignores or forgives or just doesn't understand the most appalling gaffes.

Take this Nigel Farage for Ambassador booboo. With a single Tweet, Trump has managed to violate high level diplomatic protocol, embarrass the new Prime Minister and government of his closest ally, and ensure that the chap he wants for Ambassador will definitely never ever get it or any other decent job in the government's command.

What a fething gakker. It's so ham-fisted a performance that Trump brand gloves have been declared illegal in Saudi Arabia and Israel.

 Ahtman wrote:
...[/url] as well as Britain telling Trump to blow it out his ass, politely of course, as he tries to force them give him the diplomat he wants.

This was an incredibly ignorant and self-serving move by him. Why on earth would the UK government appoint an opposition leader to that position, it's not going to bode well for relations with the current diplomat. And, apparently, Trump met with Farage to get him to push against the offshore wind-farms in the UK (because they spoil the view for his golf course ).

Everybody looking forward to 4 years of this gak?

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
...[/url] as well as Britain telling Trump to blow it out his ass, politely of course, as he tries to force them give him the diplomat he wants.

This was an incredibly ignorant and self-serving move by him. Why on earth would the UK government appoint an opposition leader to that position, it's not going to bode well for relations with the current diplomat. And, apparently, Trump met with Farage to get him to push against the offshore wind-farms in the UK (because they spoil the view for his golf course ).

Everybody looking forward to 4 years of this gak?

I think presuming this is a gaffe is misplaced. People need to stop thinking of Trump as a simple minded fool. He plays the media far too well for a fool. Trump's personal thoughts are completely unclear, but then they're also unimportant. His entire campaign, and the past few weeks of this crap have had a rather apparent theme; America for (White) Americans. The idea that the US should solely serve its own (white) interests with no regard for others because its America. He doesn't care about Farage. The "lack of support" by the British will be ammunition for later. There's a fair amount of overlap between White Power and Isolationism, and American racism has persisted by overlapping itself with other interests to draw non-racists into its circle. Get enough normal people on board, and you can be as racist as you want and let the righteous indignation of the masses shield you.

Farage isn't even an opposition leader. UKIP currently holds 1 seat (out of 650) in the House of Commons. Farage is not even the official leader of UKIP. He has got the temp job only because the party is so disorganised that it ha not managed ot replace him since he resigned in the summer.

 ender502 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

To be fair, its no less silly than the case that people who live in the midwest are all tough and the people elsewhere are not. Both arguments are silly. There are smart, dumb, tough, weak, etc people everywhere, and barring the greatest extremes are usually distributed pretty evenly. Its not like the flyover states are barren wastelands where only the strong survive or the coasts are some pampered nursery. Theyve all got internet, delivery pizza, paved roads, cell reception, GPS mapping, two day air delivery from Amazon, etc.

the flyover states are barren wastelands where only the strong survive.

Ah so you've been to New Mexico.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, its no less silly than the case that people who live in the midwest are all tough and the people elsewhere are not. Both arguments are silly. There are smart, dumb, tough, weak, etc people everywhere, and barring the greatest extremes are usually distributed pretty evenly. Its not like the flyover states are barren wastelands where only the strong survive or the coasts are some pampered nursery. Theyve all got internet, delivery pizza, paved roads, cell reception, GPS mapping, two day air delivery from Amazon, etc.

Agreed. It is disheartening when discussion devolves into "I'm tough and you're weak" countered by "I'm smart and you're dumb" when we're all Americans. Demonization and dehumanization of the opposition is counter productive, unethical and immoral.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

So you've got a reliable source to cite that supports your claim that people that work mining jobs lack intelligence? Cool, lets see it.

 Frazzled wrote:

the flyover states are barren wastelands where only the strong survive.

Ah so you've been to New Mexico.

Barely escaped with my life, scorpion the size of a Caddy almost kept me there...

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, its no less silly than the case that people who live in the midwest are all tough and the people elsewhere are not. Both arguments are silly. There are smart, dumb, tough, weak, etc people everywhere, and barring the greatest extremes are usually distributed pretty evenly. Its not like the flyover states are barren wastelands where only the strong survive or the coasts are some pampered nursery. Theyve all got internet, delivery pizza, paved roads, cell reception, GPS mapping, two day air delivery from Amazon, etc.

Agreed. It is disheartening when discussion devolves into "I'm tough and you're weak" countered by "I'm smart and you're dumb" when we're all Americans. Demonization and dehumanization of the opposition is counter productive, unethical and immoral.

Aye, and its an easy loop to get into as it feeds the narratives of the worst elements on all sides, and we are all guilty of falling into such traps at one time or another.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

the flyover states are barren wastelands where only the strong survive.

Ah so you've been to New Mexico.

Barely escaped with my life, scorpion the size of a Caddy almost kept me there...

Prestor Jon wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, its no less silly than the case that people who live in the midwest are all tough and the people elsewhere are not. Both arguments are silly. There are smart, dumb, tough, weak, etc people everywhere, and barring the greatest extremes are usually distributed pretty evenly. Its not like the flyover states are barren wastelands where only the strong survive or the coasts are some pampered nursery. Theyve all got internet, delivery pizza, paved roads, cell reception, GPS mapping, two day air delivery from Amazon, etc.

Agreed. It is disheartening when discussion devolves into "I'm tough and you're weak" countered by "I'm smart and you're dumb" when we're all Americans. Demonization and dehumanization of the opposition is counter productive, unethical and immoral.

Aye, and its an easy loop to get into as it feeds the narratives of the worst elements on all sides, and we are all guilty of falling into such traps at one time or another.

Everyone wants to be on the side of the angels, everyone wants to think the worst of the opposition and everyone wants to embrace a comforting affirming narrative. We don't all have to agree, we can all have our own opinions and beliefs and we can all live our lives as we will and everything will be fine. Unfortunately, sooner or later somebody comes along and rallies a crowd around the idea that there's only one true way and disagreement can't be tolerated, which leads to things getting pretty ugly.

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

[snip]
So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

You do realise that open contempt for the working class like your remarks is one of the things that helped fuel Trump's victory?

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

So you've got a reliable source to cite that supports your claim that people that work mining jobs lack intelligence? Cool, lets see it.

Hahaha. Dude, I'm pulling your leg. I know you want to believe all us liberals are elitist aristocrats but it just isn't so. I highly recommend you unplug from Fox News. It's obviously effected your sense of humor and your ability to detect dead pan sarcasm . ya see, just cause the right wing nut balls believe all kinds of crazy it doesn't mean us liberals do as well.

You can now respond with an attack on the liberal media. Proceed.

It is unfair to characterise miners as being stupid. They merely tend to be less uneducated and less well informed (for the most part) which means they don't have the knowledge and tools like psychology and statistics to make sense of various kinds of things in the modern world.

These are things than can be ameliorated. Any basically smart person can get up to speed on a new topic surprisingly quickly by reading the right kinds of books.

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

So you've got a reliable source to cite that supports your claim that people that work mining jobs lack intelligence? Cool, lets see it.

Hahaha. Dude, I'm pulling your leg. I know you want to believe all us liberals are elitist aristocrats but it just isn't so. I highly recommend you unplug from Fox News. It's obviously effected your sense of humor and your ability to detect dead pan sarcasm . ya see, just cause the right wing nut balls believe all kinds of crazy it doesn't mean us liberals do as well.

You can now respond with an attack on the liberal media. Proceed.

Ha, you think I watch Fox News just because I'm not a Democrat. I cut the cord from cable years ago, before it was trendy. Now and again I'll peruse an aggregate site like RealClearPolitics to see what the alleged politics SMEs are writing about and read blogs and listen to podcasts. The only time I spend watching cable news is when its on the wall of tvs at the gym. And I am very familiar with the fact that one doesn't have to be aristocratic to be liberal or elitist.

My two decades of building experience showed me the trades are populated by a handful of very smart, clever people leading a horde of dregs that are dumb as rocks.

Persons of middling ability don't last on site. They're too smart to tolerate being a dreg, but not quick enough to be one of the leaders.

 feeder wrote:
My two decades of building experience showed me the trades are populated by a handful of very smart, clever people leading a horde of dregs that are dumb as rocks.

Persons of middling ability don't last on site. They're too smart to tolerate being a dreg, but not quick enough to be one of the leaders.

They may not be mensa members but in my experience they're smart enough to learn a skill that earns them a nice paycheck and the superintendents know their stuff more often than not although when you find one of he inept ones it truly disastrous. Construction is a tough business to be in so the ones that last tend to be smart but there's always a bunch that are here today and gone tomorrow.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

[snip]
So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

You do realise that open contempt for the working class like your remarks is one of the things that helped fuel Trump's victory?

Trump supporters will tell you to hush up now.

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

So you've got a reliable source to cite that supports your claim that people that work mining jobs lack intelligence? Cool, lets see it.

Hahaha. Dude, I'm pulling your leg. I know you want to believe all us liberals are elitist aristocrats but it just isn't so. I highly recommend you unplug from Fox News. It's obviously effected your sense of humor and your ability to detect dead pan sarcasm . ya see, just cause the right wing nut balls believe all kinds of crazy it doesn't mean us liberals do as well.

You can now respond with an attack on the liberal media. Proceed.

Your recent posts are supporting this stereotype 110% actually.

Barely escaped with my life, scorpion the size of a Caddy almost kept me there...

Yep...they will pin you down until the radioactive muties come. It gets a little messy after that.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 feeder wrote:
My two decades of building experience showed me the trades are populated by a handful of very smart, clever people leading a horde of dregs that are dumb as rocks.

Persons of middling ability don't last on site. They're too smart to tolerate being a dreg, but not quick enough to be one of the leaders.

They may not be mensa members but in my experience they're smart enough to learn a skill that earns them a nice paycheck and the superintendents know their stuff more often than not although when you find one of he inept ones it truly disastrous. Construction is a tough business to be in so the ones that last tend to be smart but there's always a bunch that are here today and gone tomorrow.

Oh yeah, i was referring to the leaders "in the trenches". The lead hands, the foremen.

I agree that a good super is half your crew, but a bad super is your whole crew though

A good chicken cutter in northern Alabama can make $75k/year and it's doubtful automation will ever truly replace that sort of role. And a chicken cutter is exactly what it sounds like; someone who cuts pieces of chicken into different shapes. It'll take about a year of apprenticeship to get to a performance level commensurate with that income, but compare that to a 4 year liberal arts degree with a starting expected salary at maybe $50k/year with an assumed 45+ hour work week versus straight 8s M-F.

There are also a gakload of degrees in these large-scale manufacturing industries. Blue-collar work today covers a pretty broad spectrum and while the per capita education level will skew lower than an office environment, there are a lot of MAs and Ph.Ds in those orgs. Virtually all of them adhere to some sort of optimized theoretical process or FSQR or safety regulation.

Somebody out on a site in a Carharrt is as likely to have a degree, or some number of years of technical training that equates to something similar.

And if you stack your diploma 2-high, you'll probably do about as well as a 2nd year chicken cutter

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Or are you intent on pushing the idea that lives and opinions of people that don't involve any of your list are some how less important?

Ender502

Nope. Your conflating opinion vs. toughness. A Virginia miner is going to go through Oberlin's entire voting pool like crap through a goose if we discuss toughness.

Nope. They'll just tell the miner that in the dictionary, under redundant, it says see redundant. While the miner is wondering on that they will, by committee, develop a metallic dynamic movement device ( metal baseball bat) to cave in his skull with. Conflict over. Smarts always win. Thats why we aren't all still beating each other brains in to claim the best bits of the deer we killed with rock.

You are equating toughness with success. I'd let you off and admit you're just joking around but your comment is too close to the disdain the rift has for education. No thanks.

An ignorant vote may be as valuable as an educated one but an ignorant opinion isn't as valuable as an educated one.
Ender502

So you choose to complain about your perceived disdain for education by implying that people who work mining jobs aren't smart? Nothing like fighting disdain with more disdain.

Except in my case, I'm right!

Ender502

So you've got a reliable source to cite that supports your claim that people that work mining jobs lack intelligence? Cool, lets see it.

Hahaha. Dude, I'm pulling your leg. I know you want to believe all us liberals are elitist aristocrats but it just isn't so. I highly recommend you unplug from Fox News. It's obviously effected your sense of humor and your ability to detect dead pan sarcasm . ya see, just cause the right wing nut balls believe all kinds of crazy it doesn't mean us liberals do as well.

You can now respond with an attack on the liberal media. Proceed.

It is hard when all you have is typed words to really get the gist of what people are saying, I would hazard a guess that we would all be quite different if we were having this conversation over a gaming table where we could hear the tone and get the subtle body language. I wonder if half the problem with social media is we cant really fully communicate with it.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 feeder wrote:
My two decades of building experience showed me the trades are populated by a handful of very smart, clever people leading a horde of dregs that are dumb as rocks.

Persons of middling ability don't last on site. They're too smart to tolerate being a dreg, but not quick enough to be one of the leaders.

They may not be mensa members but in my experience they're smart enough to learn a skill that earns them a nice paycheck and the superintendents know their stuff more often than not although when you find one of he inept ones it truly disastrous. Construction is a tough business to be in so the ones that last tend to be smart but there's always a bunch that are here today and gone tomorrow.

The miners I know have a fair sized reserve of common sense as well as intelligence. Working in an enviornment where a piece of cave wall can suddenly break loose, shoot across the cave and crush a person tends to make the ones working the job observant and mindful of their actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 feeder wrote:
My two decades of building experience showed me the trades are populated by a handful of very smart, clever people leading a horde of dregs that are dumb as rocks.

Persons of middling ability don't last on site. They're too smart to tolerate being a dreg, but not quick enough to be one of the leaders.

They may not be mensa members but in my experience they're smart enough to learn a skill that earns them a nice paycheck and the superintendents know their stuff more often than not although when you find one of he inept ones it truly disastrous. Construction is a tough business to be in so the ones that last tend to be smart but there's always a bunch that are here today and gone tomorrow.

Oh yeah, i was referring to the leaders "in the trenches". The lead hands, the foremen.

I agree that a good super is half your crew, but a bad super is your whole crew though

Actually, a well developed crew is your crew with a super just popping in ever now and then to let them know what the company needs.

Relapse wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 feeder wrote:
My two decades of building experience showed me the trades are populated by a handful of very smart, clever people leading a horde of dregs that are dumb as rocks.

Persons of middling ability don't last on site. They're too smart to tolerate being a dreg, but not quick enough to be one of the leaders.

They may not be mensa members but in my experience they're smart enough to learn a skill that earns them a nice paycheck and the superintendents know their stuff more often than not although when you find one of he inept ones it truly disastrous. Construction is a tough business to be in so the ones that last tend to be smart but there's always a bunch that are here today and gone tomorrow.

The miners I know have a fair sized reserve of common sense as well as intelligence. Working in an enviornment where a piece of cave wall can suddenly break loose, shoot across the cave and crush a person tends to make the ones working the job observant and mindful of their actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:

Prestor Jon wrote:

 feeder wrote:
My two decades of building experience showed me the trades are populated by a handful of very smart, clever people leading a horde of dregs that are dumb as rocks.

Persons of middling ability don't last on site. They're too smart to tolerate being a dreg, but not quick enough to be one of the leaders.

They may not be mensa members but in my experience they're smart enough to learn a skill that earns them a nice paycheck and the superintendents know their stuff more often than not although when you find one of he inept ones it truly disastrous. Construction is a tough business to be in so the ones that last tend to be smart but there's always a bunch that are here today and gone tomorrow.

Oh yeah, i was referring to the leaders "in the trenches". The lead hands, the foremen.

I agree that a good super is half your crew, but a bad super is your whole crew though

Actually, a well developed crew is your crew with a super just popping in ever now and then to let them know what the company needs.

I think there's something to be said that most people are intelligent, but different groups overly (i.e. falsely) value different kinds of intelligence while undervaluing (falsely) others.

I've met educated people who think that having gone to college imparts on them a special insight into just about anything. One of my favorite instances was a guy I knew with a philosophy degree, who felt that was appropriate support from which to argue that economy could not only afford a raise to a $15 minimum wage, but that it should be law that all people be paid no less than $40,000 a year. As awesome as that would be, somehow I don't think it would work out as well as he thinks and sorry Joe but your philosophy degree does not make you an expert on economics so waving the fact you have one isn't really helping.

I've met farmers who think that not being educated not only makes them smarter, but imparts them with great and illusive "common sense" that no "book learning" ever taught anyone. Common sense he then used to petition for an open air firing range withing 25 yards of a residential neighborhood, while his farm is seated right above the local aquifer from which everyone in the immediate area gets their drinking water. When it was proposed by the people in the residential neighborhood ("non-locals" mostly educated) that drink lead poisoned water was bad for you he said he'd just build a concrete wall instead of a dirt mound. This is within 25 yards of a residential area remember. One resident, a former Army Colonel, failed to explain to how ricochet's work because he was a "liberal carpet bagger come to take all the guns."

The issue isn't really smart vs not smart. The farmer probably knows way more about dairy cows than I ever will (probably more about guns to, even if he is disturbingly irresponsible in how he thinks bullets work). And Joe probably knows way more about Transcendental philosophy than I'll ever be able to keep up with. The problem is that they both overly value what intelligence and knowledge they do have, and leverage that into thinking they have special insights into other issues from which they then cast judgements on others.

Maybe people can just stop doing that all around eh? EDIT: Not directed specifically at you Relapse, your post is just what brought all this to mind.

 whembly wrote:
I guess it's the "conservative" in me that loathes to make sweeping changes of this magnitude...

I don't think it's a conservative to reflexively argue against change. Remember, right now this is all just spitballing and talking about ideas, there's no need to be conservative here. Once people start forming around a solution, then there's merit in a conservative approach looking applying changes slowly, or in parts at a time etc. But it isn't conservative to just argue against the mere idea of change, or at least it shouldn't be.

I mean, to me the EC was an ingenious compromise, allowing the popular election (sans NE and ME) of the president, but on a state-by-state basis. Citizens vote for president, with the winner in each state taking all the state’s electoral votes based on the number of seats that state has in the Senate and House combined.

The problem is that it is a really bad compromise. What it achieves (additional weighting to the smaller states) could be achieved by other means, while it also brings in an issue with winner takes all effectively disenfranchising votes in strong red and strong blue states.

Fact is, the people in their state have the power to tweak the EC to such fashion that the 'electoral voters' could simply be a virtual count for that state. That would remove the potential for 'unfaithful electors'

Unfaithful electors is a side issue, the real issue is disenfranchisement. It would have been a very strange, and unsatisfying feeling in 2012 for Texas Republicans to work hard and get out a really good result for Romney, only to see it mean absolutely nothing to the election. Californian Democrats would have had the same feeling this year. It is not good for people to end up feeling their vote didn't and can't impact the election result.

Now, potentially each state has the ability to move away from winner takes all, but the party that dominates that state has little motive to do so. Texas turning to a model that allocated by each congressional district would require a Republican state congress to just decide to start giving EV to the Democrat candidate. Same thing if California or NY did it for the Democrats. While the benefits to the individual voters in those states, and to the overall balance of the country's electoral process are obvious, the people in control would lose out, so it won't happen.

So it needs some kind of national agreement. A constitutional amendment is pie in the sky stuff, of course. But an agreement between states, even just informally, that they will build new means of allocating EV for their states that aren't winner take all could happen. I posted earlier about a pact to award EV based on the national popular vote as long as other states agreed to the same, though it was pointed out that was extremely shaky, constitutionally speaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Anyone shocked?

Source tells @joenbc that @realDonaldTrump won't pursue investigations into @HillaryClinton for private email server use/Clinton Foundation.

— Morning Joe (@Morning_Joe) November 22, 2016

Toldya we're being conned.

Really, anyone who'd read anything about Trump as a businessman would have learned the man will say or do anything in the moment, with almost no concept that he should be expected to keep to that commitment later. That's what I said a bunch of times during the campaign, including my prediction that Trump would drop any action against Clinton if he won the election.

How long until people notice Trump doing nothing to promote manufacturing jobs?

 LordofHats wrote:

I think there's something to be said that most people are intelligent, but different groups overly (i.e. falsely) value different kinds of intelligence while undervaluing (falsely) others.

I've met educated people who think that having gone to college imparts on them a special insight into just about anything. One of my favorite instances was a guy I knew with a philosophy degree, who felt that was appropriate support from which to argue that economy could not only afford a raise to a $15 minimum wage, but that it should be law that all people be paid no less than $40,000 a year. As awesome as that would be, somehow I don't think it would work out as well as he thinks and sorry Joe but your philosophy degree does not make you an expert on economics so waving the fact you have one isn't really helping.

I've met farmers who think that not being educated not only makes them smarter, but imparts them with great and illusive "common sense" that no "book learning" ever taught anyone. Common sense he then used to petition for an open air firing range withing 25 yards of a residential neighborhood, while his farm is seated right above the local aquifer from which everyone in the immediate area gets their drinking water. When it was proposed by the people in the residential neighborhood ("non-locals" mostly educated) that drink lead poisoned water was bad for you he said he'd just build a concrete wall instead of a dirt mound. This is within 25 yards of a residential area remember. One resident, a former Army Colonel, failed to explain to how ricochet's work because he was a "liberal carpet bagger come to take all the guns."

The issue isn't really smart vs not smart. The farmer probably knows way more about dairy cows than I ever will (probably more about guns to, even if he is disturbingly irresponsible in how he thinks bullets work). And Joe probably knows way more about Transcendental philosophy than I'll ever be able to keep up with. The problem is that they both overly value what intelligence and knowledge they do have, and leverage that into thinking they have special insights into other issues from which they then cast judgements on others.

Maybe people can just stop doing that all around eh? EDIT: Not directed specifically at you Relapse, your post is just what brought all this to mind.

Well, as a father I can tell you that I know a lot about many things...

 Stevefamine wrote:
Temple is hilarious right now - all of a sudden Trump supporters popping up. Looks like a lot of philly republicans were staying undercover until after the election results. Trump hats every time I take the train now - and the black Israelites even had pro trump gear (but to tally troll others... since all they do is rustle the locals).

I still love the campus's massive "WHITE PEOPLE DO SOMETHING" sign they have (it's an art sculpture). SJW undergrads please go. I just enjoy milo's speeches and articles too much. His ability to crush other seemingly immune SJW/LGBT groups is beautiful

And here's another instance of a Trump supporter making their case entirely out of spite against SJW.

 feeder wrote:

I have trouble following twitter conversations. Is he saying Trump is on record disavowing and condemning the kind of neo-nazi garbage Spencer and chums are getting up to?

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-groups-new-york-times/index.html