Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What makes them "correct"?

You're TFG for not allowing a completely reasonable request.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

What about this is significantly different than using a made-up chapter? Think of it as he's playing Space Marines using [whichever chapter tactics he decided] and calling them Iron Warriors while modeling them as chaos/renegades. Much better than "If you wanna play Chaos you have to get gak on."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

Or hell, even if it wasn't an unplayable codex, if someone wants to use rules that they believe will fit their models better, why not?

If it was a homebrew chapter sure, go ahead, they are space marines. But as soon as I see a maulerfiend being used as an ironclad dreadnought or something like that it just makes me think, why don't you just stay faithful to your dex? Very simple to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
What makes them "correct"?

You're TFG for not allowing a completely reasonable request.

I quoted correct because it is what I see as correct, as in something that is not completely nutters like pink dots or something, I usually do an already existing forge world or kabal or something like that.

How is this TFG? I want him to play the game correctly. Its extremely WAAC if you just trade dex's because one is better. Might as well just run my knight as a riptide.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

What about this is significantly different than using a made-up chapter? Think of it as he's playing Space Marines using [whichever chapter tactics he decided] and calling them Iron Warriors while modeling them as chaos/renegades. Much better than "If you wanna play Chaos you have to get gak on."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

Or hell, even if it wasn't an unplayable codex, if someone wants to use rules that they believe will fit their models better, why not?

If it was a homebrew chapter sure, go ahead, they are space marines. But as soon as I see a maulerfiend being used as an ironclad dreadnought or something like that it just makes me think, why don't you just stay faithful to your dex? Very simple to me.

So you're against proxying, is your point. I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about putting a maulerfiend down as an ironclad, though, or anything like that, unless I missed it. Honestly, in this scenario, I would more expect him to place an ironclad as an ironclad. There's no reason Iron Warriors couldn't or wouldn't have dreadnoughts other than the CSM codex doesn't have them.

Remember, also, he's not using csm rules on top of space marine stuff. He's using entirely Codex Space Marines rules. It's essentially a custom chapter, crunch-wise. And if he were to convert a chaos daemon engine to use as a dreadnought, that would be freakin' awesome. If he were to roll up to a game with a non-converted 'fiend and said "Hey I'm using this as a dread," most reasonable people would probably okay it. They're the same base size, right? About the same footprint, rough outline?

If you're against proxying, okay then, that's a little different.

Unless you mean that a trilas predator with an eye of horus on it cannot be used as a trilas predator in C:SM as Iron Hands or similar. If that is the root of your argument, you are beyond reason.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

Spoiler:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

What about this is significantly different than using a made-up chapter? Think of it as he's playing Space Marines using [whichever chapter tactics he decided] and calling them Iron Warriors while modeling them as chaos/renegades. Much better than "If you wanna play Chaos you have to get gak on."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

Or hell, even if it wasn't an unplayable codex, if someone wants to use rules that they believe will fit their models better, why not?

If it was a homebrew chapter sure, go ahead, they are space marines. But as soon as I see a maulerfiend being used as an ironclad dreadnought or something like that it just makes me think, why don't you just stay faithful to your dex? Very simple to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
What makes them "correct"?

You're TFG for not allowing a completely reasonable request.

I quoted correct because it is what I see as correct, as in something that is not completely nutters like pink dots or something, I usually do an already existing forge world or kabal or something like that.

How is this TFG? I want him to play the game correctly. Its extremely WAAC if you just trade dex's because one is better. Might as well just run my knight as a riptide.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

What about this is significantly different than using a made-up chapter? Think of it as he's playing Space Marines using [whichever chapter tactics he decided] and calling them Iron Warriors while modeling them as chaos/renegades. Much better than "If you wanna play Chaos you have to get gak on."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

Or hell, even if it wasn't an unplayable codex, if someone wants to use rules that they believe will fit their models better, why not?

If it was a homebrew chapter sure, go ahead, they are space marines. But as soon as I see a maulerfiend being used as an ironclad dreadnought or something like that it just makes me think, why don't you just stay faithful to your dex? Very simple to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
What makes them "correct"?

You're TFG for not allowing a completely reasonable request.

I quoted correct because it is what I see as correct, as in something that is not completely nutters like pink dots or something, I usually do an already existing forge world or kabal or something like that.

How is this TFG? I want him to play the game correctly. Its extremely WAAC if you just trade dex's because one is better. Might as well just run my knight as a riptide.

You're talking about a very poor proxy to try and gain an advantage purely for the sake of winning. We're talking about models that are almost the same as one another to avoid automatically losing every game. You're TFG because you're basically saying "I don't want you to have fun because it goes against my idea of right".

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

pm713 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

What about this is significantly different than using a made-up chapter? Think of it as he's playing Space Marines using [whichever chapter tactics he decided] and calling them Iron Warriors while modeling them as chaos/renegades. Much better than "If you wanna play Chaos you have to get gak on."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

Or hell, even if it wasn't an unplayable codex, if someone wants to use rules that they believe will fit their models better, why not?

If it was a homebrew chapter sure, go ahead, they are space marines. But as soon as I see a maulerfiend being used as an ironclad dreadnought or something like that it just makes me think, why don't you just stay faithful to your dex? Very simple to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
What makes them "correct"?

You're TFG for not allowing a completely reasonable request.

I quoted correct because it is what I see as correct, as in something that is not completely nutters like pink dots or something, I usually do an already existing forge world or kabal or something like that.

How is this TFG? I want him to play the game correctly. Its extremely WAAC if you just trade dex's because one is better. Might as well just run my knight as a riptide.

You're talking about a very poor proxy to try and gain an advantage purely for the sake of winning. We're talking about models that are almost the same as one another to avoid automatically losing every game. You're TFG because you're basically saying "I don't want you to have fun because it goes against my idea of right".

Is he not proxying for an advantage? To you that's not a problem, so why can't I run my knight as a riptide? Similar in size, footprint, maybe if I put some tau symbols on it I can say they stole it! I'm using my models they way I want, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

And Codex CSM is pretty much an auto lose choice unless your facing Guard in which case you will still have a tough time. In the mean time Codex SM and codex DA and codex SW can pretty much curb stomp Chaos and anything else beneath them with ease.

Like I said ShieldBrother. You aren't playing a codex that puts you at a huge disadvantage therefore you shouldn't use a terrible proxy for pure advantage.

OP wants to use very reasonable alternative models to fight on a level playing field.

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

I disagree. Plus the rules themselves give you ways to make custom chapters, as a community conversions and kitbashing is encouraged. The whole thing is very customizable, and the only true guiding philosophy is "Have fun."

Keep in mind that he's playing Space Marines using Space Marine rules, and the models themselves are what are different. He may be using CSM models, but he's playing Space Marines. He wants to play Space Marines and call his army Iron Warriors. Even if CSM didn't have a gak codex, there's literally nothing wrong with that.

But OP, let this remind you that some people will always object to something out of the norm. That's really all there is to say without people starting to fight and call each other TFG and WAAC.

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

And GW has said you cannot use models of one faction with other codex...Where?

If anything GW is likely to say anything. GW cares not why models were bought as long as they are bought. If they can sell more chaos models thanks to them using codex:SM they are all for it.

But sure. Show me quote from GW saying you cannot use chaos models with codex:SM. I'm waiting.

I don't want to hear your OPINIONS. I want to see OFFICIAL STATEMENT from GW where they forbid it.

Untill you can show that what you are saying has pretty much zero value.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
To you that's not a problem, so why can't I run my knight as a riptide? Similar in size, footprint, maybe if I put some tau symbols on it I can say they stole it! I'm using my models they way I want, right?

Yes. Absolutely. That's what I'm saying. It would be amazing if you could convert it up somewhat, but otherwise it's a new experimental Riptide suit model.

Another clarification, all of my models are Horus Heresy era I am not using and/or do not have maulerfiends, heldrakes or anything else that does not exist in C:SM. I for the most part have a lot of rhinos, a few predators, MKIII marines, some Cataphractii terminators and a few dreadnoughts from old SM starter sets. All are painted in heresy IW colors.

My thought was to say they are either Silver Skulls (they are thought to maybe be IW) or IW who had remained loyal during the heresy.

sturgeondtd wrote:
Another clarification, all of my models are Horus Heresy era I am not using and/or do not have maulerfiends, heldrakes or anything else that does not exist in C:SM. I for the most part have a lot of rhinos, a few predators, MKIII marines, some Cataphractii terminators and a few dreadnoughts from old SM starter sets. All are painted in heresy IW colors.

My thought was to say they are either Silver Skulls (they are thought to maybe be IW) or IW who had remained loyal during the heresy.

I like the Silver Skulls better. Then it could be suspected they are a successor chapter from the IW geneseed or something. Or a chapter made from loyalist IW.

I think (but am not sure) any loyalists from the traitor legions got rolled into new chapters and to talk openly about being from a traitor legion is basically death. If someone tells me I'm wrong then I'm getting traitor legion shoulderpads for some of my Deathwatch haha.

I think CSM should be something like a supplement that adds chaos abilities and weapons to the troops in Codex Space Marines. That way CSM will keep up with SM indefinitely, instead of the ridiculous joke we have now.

Csm isn't an auto lose, by a mile. They are bad, yes, but anyone who just rolls over and accepts they will be ground into dust every game is doing something wrong. Play smart, use what effective stuff you have and don't play with donkey-caves.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Csm isn't an auto lose, by a mile. They are bad, yes, but anyone who just rolls over and accepts they will be ground into dust every game is doing something wrong. Play smart, use what effective stuff you have and don't play with donkey-caves.

Guard armies can face competitive Chaos lists and have a decent chance. That should say something.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

Space Marine players, when you being slated for being elitist anus's look no further than people with this kind of attitude.

Lets play nice now. Everyone is entitled to a good faith opinion (unless you like cats, in which case you're dead to me).

 Frazzled wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

Space Marine players, when you being slated for being elitist anus's look no further than people with this kind of attitude.

Lets play nice now. Everyone is entitled to a good faith opinion (unless you like cats, in which case you're dead to me).

*Looks at the purring cat on his lap*
Well.... Gak.

 DarkBlack wrote:
I think CSM should be something like a supplement that adds chaos abilities and weapons to the troops in Codex Space Marines. That way CSM will keep up with SM indefinitely, instead of the ridiculous joke we have now.

This level of efficiency has no place here!

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

And Codex CSM is pretty much an auto lose choice unless your facing Guard in which case you will still have a tough time. In the mean time Codex SM and codex DA and codex SW can pretty much curb stomp Chaos and anything else beneath them with ease.

And? I play Codex: Orks as Orks and run Nobz, I don't run my Nobz as Wulfen even though they're much better geared and statted out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

And GW has said you cannot use models of one faction with other codex...Where?

If anything GW is likely to say anything. GW cares not why models were bought as long as they are bought. If they can sell more chaos models thanks to them using codex:SM they are all for it.

But sure. Show me quote from GW saying you cannot use chaos models with codex:SM. I'm waiting.

I don't want to hear your OPINIONS. I want to see OFFICIAL STATEMENT from GW where they forbid it.

Untill you can show that what you are saying has pretty much zero value.

The fact that they're labeled under the site as CSM models, not "Power armor models"? But hey, guess what, this goes both ways. Until you can show me where GW says you can run CSM as SM, YOUR opinion has pretty much zero value. Happy?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

And Codex CSM is pretty much an auto lose choice unless your facing Guard in which case you will still have a tough time. In the mean time Codex SM and codex DA and codex SW can pretty much curb stomp Chaos and anything else beneath them with ease.

And? I play Codex: Orks as Orks and run Nobz, I don't run my Nobz as Wulfen even though they're much better geared and statted out.

And where does it say you couldn't do that?

Still waiting for that official word from GW...You said there is one. You admitt having lied about it? Or are you going to actually prove your statement in a near future?

Now you're just being petty. Everyone knows each faction has its own models because those are the intended models in their codex entry etc. Go to your local gamestore and yell everyone your daemon prince is a Warhound titan. I dare you. You'll get laughed out of the store.

tneva82 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.

And please tell who gave you the authority to decide what is the correct way to play the game?

GW. CSM has their own codex and DA has their own codex and SM has their own codex. Doing anything else pretty much goes against the spirit of the game.

And Codex CSM is pretty much an auto lose choice unless your facing Guard in which case you will still have a tough time. In the mean time Codex SM and codex DA and codex SW can pretty much curb stomp Chaos and anything else beneath them with ease.

And? I play Codex: Orks as Orks and run Nobz, I don't run my Nobz as Wulfen even though they're much better geared and statted out.

And where does it say you couldn't do that?

Still waiting for that official word from GW...You said there is one. You admitt having lied about it? Or are you going to actually prove your statement in a near future?

Pretty clear you're just splitting hairs and being asinine. Not even worth continuing discussion now.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Now you're just being petty. Everyone knows each faction has its own models because those are the intended models in their codex entry etc. Go to your local gamestore and yell everyone your daemon prince is a Warhound titan. I dare you. You'll get laughed out of the store.

Except your ideas are more along the lines of "Your Tau aren't yellow, therefore they aren't official Tau models".

 jreilly89 wrote:

The fact that they're labeled under the site as CSM models, not "Power armor models"? But hey, guess what, this goes both ways. Until you can show me where GW says you can run CSM as SM, YOUR opinion has pretty much zero value. Happy?

Have we not always been able to use any models we want (within agreed-upon reason between opponents)? Did scratch-built stop being a thing? I know that GW stores only allow GW models, but the game itself only has pictures of models and rules and options for units. I haven't seen a page that applies rules to the actual physical models, barring limited edition release models. It could be argued the pictures/models are only examples of what the units *could* look like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Now you're just being petty. Everyone knows each faction has its own models because those are the intended models in their codex entry etc. Go to your local gamestore and yell everyone your daemon prince is a Warhound titan. I dare you. You'll get laughed out of the store.

"Your power armored guys being different power armored guys is as laughable as a 50mm (or whatever) base being a model that takes up 10% of the table." Do we see the fallacy?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Csm isn't an auto lose, by a mile. They are bad, yes, but anyone who just rolls over and accepts they will be ground into dust every game is doing something wrong. Play smart, use what effective stuff you have and don't play with donkey-caves.

Donkey-caves can be anyone just using an averagely-built army, because the average army can beat a competitive CSM list. Make it just a bit more efficient and it is a slaughter.

So yeah you're wrong. Who cares if someone proxies a Maulerfiend into an Ironclad? An Ironclad having two Flamers sounds like a Maulerfiend breathing fire which is neat. There's plenty of good reasoning to do things like this (Rubric Marines carrying exotic ammo ala Sternguard? Makes sense to me).

Verviedi wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Now you're just being petty. Everyone knows each faction has its own models because those are the intended models in their codex entry etc. Go to your local gamestore and yell everyone your daemon prince is a Warhound titan. I dare you. You'll get laughed out of the store.

Except your ideas are more along the lines of "Your Tau aren't yellow, therefore they aren't official Tau models".

Never said that, however swapping codices is too much.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Csm isn't an auto lose, by a mile. They are bad, yes, but anyone who just rolls over and accepts they will be ground into dust every game is doing something wrong. Play smart, use what effective stuff you have and don't play with donkey-caves.

Donkey-caves can be anyone just using an averagely-built army, because the average army can beat a competitive CSM list. Make it just a bit more efficient and it is a slaughter.

So yeah you're wrong. Who cares if someone proxies a Maulerfiend into an Ironclad? An Ironclad having two Flamers sounds like a Maulerfiend breathing fire which is neat. There's plenty of good reasoning to do things like this (Rubric Marines carrying exotic ammo ala Sternguard? Makes sense to me).

To you, what is an average codex? Because to me, Imperial guard is about pretty average. I have a friend who plays guard, my brother who plays chaos, and I play kdk occasionally. Out of all of us the guard player loses most. (Neither me or my brother play formations) Now this may be anecdotal, but from my experience chaos can do fine against guard.

And I care if he proxies a Maulerfiend for an Ironclad, use the correct models for the correct faction and don't just be WAAC that changes codex depending on the flavour of the week.