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 Selym wrote:
I'm agreeing with you...

You were not the intended audience for that post. I know you agree.

"Why should I support ba when I can support Eldar?" Uh, I dunno, why the hell are you playing ba when you can play eldar? It's the exact same question.

Ba has a lot of options for direct support from other codex, eldar doesn't. And obviously doesn't need it.

I put iom codex above Orks and Tyranids because of allies matrix. I didn't say it made them bloody equal to Eldar or that they are fine. This post isn't "who are the 80% at the bottom" it's about the very worst. And allies matrix pulls any iom just out of that.

The fact that you don't want to use it doesn't change that.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Pretty bad Poll...GK are clearly the worst army in the game.

Clearly. I mean those Dreadknights are just worthless. (But still better than anything in C:BA, C:Orks, or C:CSM)

They pretty much are worthless. They can't even take a single round of shooting in most cases.

For real? They only die to grav... They're practically immortal to everything else!

Str D, starcannons, bladestorm, pulse rifle spam, 2+ poison, etc. Not having the stackable FNP of a Riptide and maxxing at a 4++ makes it considerably more vulnerable than the Riptide. But it's still busted against things that can't wound spam it. At least it has to get close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
"Why should I support ba when I can support Eldar?" Uh, I dunno, why the hell are you playing ba when you can play eldar? It's the exact same question.

Ba has a lot of options for direct support from other codex, eldar doesn't. And obviously doesn't need it.

Money. Time. If this were a video game, I'd never touch BA with a 10-foot-pole.

Everyone can ally with everyone. The ally matrix is not a consideration for codex efficacy. BA aren't made better by better codices existing.

Honestly, you've proven that you don't even know the rules in this thread, so I can't even be bothered. "I meant that!" Sure you did. Your army isn't getting creamed round 1. Half the time you move before your enemy even gets to shoot.

"Str D, starcannons, bladestorm, pulse rifle spam, 2+ poison, etc. Not having the stackable FNP of a Riptide and maxxing at a 4++ makes it considerably more vulnerable than the Riptide. But it's still busted against things that can't wound spam it. At least it has to get close."

Sure, D works.

Starcannons? How many of them can you get in a single unit?

Bladestorm? The units will die way before try can use their bladestorm by the Dresknights themselves or allied grav centurions (this is the logic you usually use, right?)

Pulse rifle spam? FW max out at 12 Tau, and 12 aren't gonna kill a Dreadknight.

2+ poison? You need 4 wounds from a single unit.... That's unlikely.

So not being a Riptide makes it die to a single unit? By that logic shouldn't the Wraithknight die to Tactical Marines since it's also not a Riptide?

 Purifier wrote:


Honestly, you've proven that you don't even know the rules in this thread, so I can't even be bothered. "I meant that!" Sure you did. Your army isn't getting creamed round 1. Half the time you move before your enemy even gets to shoot.

Whatever floats your boat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
"Str D, starcannons, bladestorm, pulse rifle spam, 2+ poison, etc. Not having the stackable FNP of a Riptide and maxxing at a 4++ makes it considerably more vulnerable than the Riptide. But it's still busted against things that can't wound spam it. At least it has to get close."

Sure, D works.

Starcannons? How many of them can you get in a single unit?

Bladestorm? The units will die way before try can use their bladestorm by the Dresknights themselves or allied grav centurions (this is the logic you usually use, right?)

Pulse rifle spam? FW max out at 12 Tau, and 12 aren't gonna kill a Dreadknight.

2+ poison? You need 4 wounds from a single unit.... That's unlikely.

So not being a Riptide makes it die to a single unit? By that logic shouldn't the Wraithknight die to Tactical Marines since it's also not a Riptide?

It's obviously going to take more tha one unit of anything. I was comparing to riptide since they are both 2+ mcs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:
"Why should I support ba when I can support Eldar?" Uh, I dunno, why the hell are you playing ba when you can play eldar? It's the exact same question.

Ba has a lot of options for direct support from other codex, eldar doesn't. And obviously doesn't need it.

I put iom codex above Orks and Tyranids because of allies matrix. I didn't say it made them bloody equal to Eldar or that they are fine. This post isn't "who are the 80% at the bottom" it's about the very worst. And allies matrix pulls any iom just out of that.

The fact that you don't want to use it doesn't change that.

Tyranids run over ba even with a real unit or two from a real codex tossed
in.

There are two constants in threads like these. Martel will act like GW is personally attacking him with the BA codex, and at some point Experiment626 will join in the excessive wailing with opinions on CSM. Just waiting for the Canuck.

I voted for five lists: ba, csm, orks, de, and nids.

I think the fact you gave an honorable mention to sisters shows that you don't get that they are quite middle tier with allies shenanigans. It's a more limited but higher quality list than ba.

You forgot another constant: bitching about IoM.

BA's are certainly well above the lowly CSM's now with the FAQ's.

While they're still by far and away the single worst Loyalist MEQ book, they got a very decent boost in their MSU play through the Dreadnought errata. A list centered along the lines of;
CAD 1
Dante + Melta-spam Honour Guard
2x Fragioso's w/Heavy flamer in Pods
Death Co. Dread in Pod
2x 5 Sniper Scouts
2x 3 Bikers w/Grav + Combi-Grav

CAD 2
Jump Chappy
Fragioso w/Heavy flamer in Pod
2x 5 Tacs w/Melta + Combi-Melta in Pods

That will demolish pretty much anything that you can try and build just out of the CSM codex.
There's too much armour and way too much 99.9% idiot-proof reliable Deep Striking there for even Nurgle lists to handle. Sure it's not the way most people likely imagine BA's to function, but their Dread spam is definitely more than viable now. (and god forbid, if those Frag Cannons eventually end up becoming like the new DW versions, though I'm sure Martel will still try and claim
that they'd be worthless & unplayable, because... "BA's have always sucked!")

Now vs. Daemonkin? Sure, BA's unfortunately play right into their hands because even Khornekin's average options can out-assault anything BA's will have short of an Invisible unit of Death Co.

But CSM's are effectively just MEQ's minus every rule that makes MEQ's actively work, while being stuck still trying to play like it's 3rd/4th edition & close combat based Rhino Rush is actually in the rules.

There we go.

"It's obviously going to take more tha one unit of anything. I was comparing to riptide since they are both 2+ mcs."

The original complaint was that Dresknights die easily to a single unit's fire

What's a dw version? Frag cannons are almost worthless vs plague marines as it is currently.

Btw, that's a terrible list that don't have to worry about unless someone is tailoring against you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

"It's obviously going to take more tha one unit of anything. I was comparing to riptide since they are both 2+ mcs."

The original complaint was that Dresknights die easily to a single unit's fire

I missed the single unit part. There's only one unit i can think of that reliably kills it : grav cents. Even the mighty wraithknight is unlikely to do it. Maybe a stormsurge but i doubt it.

Martel732 wrote:
What's a dw version? Frag cannons are almost worthless vs plague marines as it is currently.

You're gonna love this.

The new Deathwatch codex has frag cannons in it as heavy weapons. The Vets can take up to 4 heavy weapons in a squad, including frag cannons.

The new profile is this: S6 AP- Template Assault 2 Shred, -or- 24" S7 AP3 Assault 2 Impact, where Impact changes the profile to S9 AP2 Assault 2 under 12".

25pts.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's a dw version? Frag cannons are almost worthless vs plague marines as it is currently.

You're gonna love this.

The new Deathwatch codex has frag cannons in it as heavy weapons. The Vets can take up to 4 heavy weapons in a squad, including frag cannons.

The new profile is this: S6 AP- Template Assault 2 Shred, -or- 24" S7 AP3 Assault 2 Impact, where Impact changes the profile to S9 AP2 Assault 2 under 12".

25pts.

Haha, why should you have to make a choice what you want to specialise against when you create your list? Just bring one weapon that can deal with every situation!

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's a dw version? Frag cannons are almost worthless vs plague marines as it is currently.

You're gonna love this.

The new Deathwatch codex has frag cannons in it as heavy weapons. The Vets can take up to 4 heavy weapons in a squad, including frag cannons.

The new profile is this: S6 AP- Template Assault 2 Shred, -or- 24" S7 AP3 Assault 2 Impact, where Impact changes the profile to S9 AP2 Assault 2 under 12".

25pts.

First the Stormraven, now the frag cannon. Seriously, feth GW.

"and god forbid, if those Frag Cannons eventually end up becoming like the new DW versions, though I'm sure Martel will still try and claim
that they'd be worthless & unplayable, because... "BA's have always sucked!") "

It wouldn't really change how I use them at all. They'd still be fragile because of hull points. The S9 AP2 thing is nice, but with only two shots, hardly game changing. It's more effective on squads with four of the things.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's a dw version? Frag cannons are almost worthless vs plague marines as it is currently.

You're gonna love this.

The new Deathwatch codex has frag cannons in it as heavy weapons. The Vets can take up to 4 heavy weapons in a squad, including frag cannons.

The new profile is this: S6 AP- Template Assault 2 Shred, -or- 24" S7 AP3 Assault 2 Impact, where Impact changes the profile to S9 AP2 Assault 2 under 12".

25pts.

IIRC, isn't the base profile also Rending?

Hence why even the now 'lesser' BA version is still so good even against Plaugemarines...
With 2 templates, you should easily hit all 5 models in a typical MSU squad. 10 hits generates on average 6-7 wounds, 1 or 2 of which will end up outright ignoring their 3+ armour.
You'd have to get somewhat unlucky to not kill off at least 2-3 PM's, and then you still have the Heavy flamer to put a couple more hits. (might get lucky and end up with one more kill)

But yeah, BA players should be peeved that DW just went and "Over 9000'ed" pretty much their only really unique toy.

Don't forget the AV12/12/11 HP3 Assault flyer with ceramite plating, TL AssCan (free swap to TL LasCan), and 4 Stormstrike missile and an unlimited bomb type weapon with two profiles that can carry 12 models including jet pack and bikes.

*Edit* With purchasable Strafing Run and re-roll jinks for 15pts total. 180pts base.

 Blacksails wrote:
Don't forget the AV12/12/11 HP3 Assault flyer with ceramite plating, TL AssCan (free swap to TL LasCan), and 4 Stormstrike missile and an unlimited bomb type weapon with two profiles that can carry 12 models including jet pack and bikes.

*Edit* With purchasable Strafing Run and re-roll jinks for 15pts total. 180pts base.

And yet people still moan about Hellchickens...

Purifier wrote:There are two constants in threads like these. Martel will act like GW is personally attacking him with the BA codex, and at some point Experiment626 will join in the excessive wailing with opinions on CSM. Just waiting for the Canuck.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Don't forget the AV12/12/11 HP3 Assault flyer with ceramite plating, TL AssCan (free swap to TL LasCan), and 4 Stormstrike missile and an unlimited bomb type weapon with two profiles that can carry 12 models including jet pack and bikes.

*Edit* With purchasable Strafing Run and re-roll jinks for 15pts total. 180pts base.

And yet people still moan about Hellchickens...

The champ is here! *inserts John Cena's theme song*

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Don't forget the AV12/12/11 HP3 Assault flyer with ceramite plating, TL AssCan (free swap to TL LasCan), and 4 Stormstrike missile and an unlimited bomb type weapon with two profiles that can carry 12 models including jet pack and bikes.

*Edit* With purchasable Strafing Run and re-roll jinks for 15pts total. 180pts base.

And yet people still moan about Hellchickens...

Honestly I think that is about 10-20pts under costed but pretty close to what it should be. A lot of flyers are massively over priced for what little they do.

A Trukk has 10/10/10 3HP and costs 30pts. it has a single Rokkit or a single Big Shoota, is an assault transport with a carrying capacity of 12 models.

An Ork Dakkajet has 10/10/10 3HP and costs 110pts. It has Jink, 2 TL Supa Shootas for a total of 6 S6 AP4 shots that are twin linked. It gains 1 BS when shooting ground targets and basically has skyfire. So......yeah.....

If you compare the Dakkajet to the new SM flyer it is a joke. You can field 2 DakkaJets against that thing and you will lose in every category every single tie. It is ridiculous.

I'm not familiar with current DE and certainly not harlequins or sisters so I can't comment on them

CSM, orks, IG and nids all seem pretty well balanced with each other if we're just talking about the basic codexes. It's so hard to answer the OP though because of allying potential, supplements, formations etc. and the fact that competitive lists can be so far removed from what a codex is meant to be about. FMC spam nids are pretty decent (or at least were) and they've had tournament success with unusual builds like lictor shame. Chaos marines get unfairly panned in my opinion when they can have cool stuff like renegade knights, daemons and KDK as battle brothers, Be'lakor and plenty of formations and FW toys. IG get some good formations too and it doesn't hurt them that the meta is geared towards shooting and they have incredible ally potential.

I'm leaning towards orks as the weakest of the major factions. I think they're just a bit limited in today's 40k- slightly more so than the other weaker codexes

I feel like there is literally nothing I can bring against my friend who plays Tyranids that makes it a fair fight. He gets swept every game he plays. I'm not sure how he has the heart to keep going.

I'm going to try and convince him to bring a buy a bunch of Flyrants.

Martel732 wrote:

Str D, starcannons, bladestorm, pulse rifle spam, 2+ poison, etc. Not having the stackable FNP of a Riptide and maxxing at a 4++ makes it considerably more vulnerable than the Riptide. But it's still busted against things that can't wound spam it. At least it has to get close.

I mean, Nobody bring starcannons, and if we're talking Pulse Rifle spam, A. It's not as effective as you make it out to be, and B. If they're spamming Pulse rifles (which no one does) then they aren't bringing more of the actually scary Tau stuff. And 2+ poison? Who has that, and who frequently uses it? Sure, a Toxicrene has a great chance to mulch a Dreadnight, if it ever gets there. Otherwise, what? Sternguard? They might do a few wounds, sure. But people are bringing 2-3 of these things.

The Dreadknight is a solid unit. Maybe too good for it's points. But, it's one of the only good things Grey Knights have, soooo take that as you will.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Str D, starcannons, bladestorm, pulse rifle spam, 2+ poison, etc. Not having the stackable FNP of a Riptide and maxxing at a 4++ makes it considerably more vulnerable than the Riptide. But it's still busted against things that can't wound spam it. At least it has to get close.

I mean, Nobody bring starcannons, and if we're talking Pulse Rifle spam, A. It's not as effective as you make it out to be, and B. If they're spamming Pulse rifles (which no one does) then they aren't bringing more of the actually scary Tau stuff. And 2+ poison? Who has that, and who frequently uses it? Sure, a Toxicrene has a great chance to mulch a Dreadnight, if it ever gets there. Otherwise, what? Sternguard? They might do a few wounds, sure. But people are bringing 2-3 of these things.

The Dreadknight is a solid unit. Maybe too good for it's points. But, it's one of the only good things Grey Knights have, soooo take that as you will.

I listed things that have a reasonable chance of putting wounds on it. Not instant kills. You can take most of this stuff off the list of what can reliably hurt Riptide.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Don't forget the AV12/12/11 HP3 Assault flyer with ceramite plating, TL AssCan (free swap to TL LasCan), and 4 Stormstrike missile and an unlimited bomb type weapon with two profiles that can carry 12 models including jet pack and bikes.

*Edit* With purchasable Strafing Run and re-roll jinks for 15pts total. 180pts base.

And yet people still moan about Hellchickens...

WHO!? It's literally At LEAST a year ago I heard anyone even sigh at a Heldrake.

I've stated that the helldrake is better than anything in my codex, but that in no way is a complaint about the helldrake itself. It's perfectly fair after the firing arc nerf.

I took a 2 year break from 40k and back now. To my memory the weakest army is the last army that has not had a codex update. Seems the latest codex is the strongest. Simple as that.

 TheOverlord wrote:
I took a 2 year break from 40k and back now. To my memory the weakest army is the last army that has not had a codex update. Seems the latest codex is the strongest. Simple as that.

SoB or CSM are the last armies to get a new codex. CSM are hard up definitely but sisters? Sisters mulch Ork armies all the time, they are almost designed specifically to feth up horde armies.

No, I still think Orks are the worst codex with CSM close behind. CSM is only better because of allies, otherwise they are the same trash.

 TheOverlord wrote:
I took a 2 year break from 40k and back now. To my memory the weakest army is the last army that has not had a codex update. Seems the latest codex is the strongest. Simple as that.

Not quite.

 Torus wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

That's funny, the ally only army wants to complain that they're not as good as the Grey Knights or the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Tyranids are the last dog at the bone, they're a stand alone army that's comparably as bad as or worse than the Harlequins and taking allies to solve the problem can actually make it worse.

The only ally army? Should Chaos Space Marines be an ally only army since they are pretty much only used to grab the Belakor Dataslate in conjunction with a Helldrake or Imperial knights, which only have 1 unit and yet we see entire lists consisting in only Imperial knights all the time! Hell, anything that allies with harlequins actively becomes worse! So yeah, you're damn right I'm upset about it.

At least you have a competitive build in the flyrant spam that we've seen before so many times !

Seen so many times but never seen on top of the podium, that's false hope.