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 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

Sisters of Battle have a dedicated melee unit with no armor save at all. Like, not even against lasguns.

Their lore calls them a suicide unit and their gameplay matches that concept completely.

Now you see, thats a suicide unit.
The Guard infantry are main line fighters.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Slayerfan summed it up exactly. The fact that purifier thinks dc in a raven is remotely viable in a general sense does lend credence to credibility as a ba player.

And you summed it up perfectly when you said that the fact that top table players want to ally something from BA proves that they're the worst codex in the game. Laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
So on average they inflict barely enough damage to wipe them out on round one.

No, on average they whipe them out round 1 and spill over a few wounds. And that's not counting Astorath's own attacks.

Get charged on? How are you gonna charge them when they're in a flying assault vehicle? You can't. You *will* be charged on. And I'm counting them with their standard gear. No upgrades. Of course they have things they can put on there if they want to... but they don't need to.
And they're marines, which means I4, so you will always hit last.

I don't even play Sisters anymore, and I thuroughly enjoyed them when I did. I take offense at Martel's absoulte constant whining and his insistance that BA is the worst codex in the game and Sisters is top of mid tier. It's a ridiculous notion to say that Sisters is a good codex. It's missing so many big things. It has no "Big Guy" like everyone else has gotten. The heaviest thing it has is the exorcist, and if BA had that he would be bemoaning its randomness. They have no formations. They have no fliers. They have no AA. It has a few things that it does fairly well (but in the words of Martel "others do it better!") but it is a lacking codex to say the least.

Orks is worse though.

I'd rather ally in 3 Exorcists than 2 Priests. FNP is nice but it is only a marginal improvement over Iron Hands, and honestly TWC can get a 6+++ from their own dude and then a 4++ from Azrael. The only thing they were really allied in for was more Drop Pods and that was stopped.

The army will almost disappear entirely. Watch.

Exorcists (Sisters of Battle), Thunderwolf Cavalry (Space Wolves) and Azrael (Dark Angels) in one army...

You seriously give zero feths about any concept of lore, don't you?

I mean, anyone can not care. It takes real effort to not give a feth.

Well, they'd only be Sisters + Iron Hands to represent lizard men in space (slightly more durability and then you got Sisters as "Skinks"). However, you are correct in that I care more about the possibility of what lists can be created. In a vote votewar I participated in I had a Salamanders and Iron Hands army that made little sense and I just wanted to fit a bunch of blasts in it.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

Sisters of Battle have a dedicated melee unit with no armor save at all. Like, not even against lasguns.

Their lore calls them a suicide unit and their gameplay matches that concept completely.

Now you see, thats a suicide unit.
The Guard infantry are main line fighters.

The Guard infantry use attrition as their main weapon. Their job is basically a long, slow mass-suicide mission.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
They've always been a GK parallel.

The two differences are that their shtick is Xenos hunting rather than Daemon hunting and they openly recruit known Xenos killers from other chapters rather than doing everything in secret.

Cool.

What's the Witch hunting equivalent of the Deathwatch and Grey Knights? And will they ever get a stupidly-overpowered Codex and badass new models one day?

Black Templar and I doubt it, they recently got 'shafted' back into the Vanilla Marine codex. Not so much a shafting in terms of power, more a loss of identity and flavour.

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Slayerfan summed it up exactly. The fact that purifier thinks dc in a raven is remotely viable in a general sense does lend credence to credibility as a ba player.

And you summed it up perfectly when you said that the fact that top table players want to ally something from BA proves that they're the worst codex in the game. Laughable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:
So on average they inflict barely enough damage to wipe them out on round one.

No, on average they whipe them out round 1 and spill over a few wounds. And that's not counting Astorath's own attacks.

Get charged on? How are you gonna charge them when they're in a flying assault vehicle? You can't. You *will* be charged on. And I'm counting them with their standard gear. No upgrades. Of course they have things they can put on there if they want to... but they don't need to.
And they're marines, which means I4, so you will always hit last.

I don't even play Sisters anymore, and I thuroughly enjoyed them when I did. I take offense at Martel's absoulte constant whining and his insistance that BA is the worst codex in the game and Sisters is top of mid tier. It's a ridiculous notion to say that Sisters is a good codex. It's missing so many big things. It has no "Big Guy" like everyone else has gotten. The heaviest thing it has is the exorcist, and if BA had that he would be bemoaning its randomness. They have no formations. They have no fliers. They have no AA. It has a few things that it does fairly well (but in the words of Martel "others do it better!") but it is a lacking codex to say the least.

Orks is worse though.

I'd rather ally in 3 Exorcists than 2 Priests. FNP is nice but it is only a marginal improvement over Iron Hands, and honestly TWC can get a 6+++ from their own dude and then a 4++ from Azrael. The only thing they were really allied in for was more Drop Pods and that was stopped.

The army will almost disappear entirely. Watch.

Exorcists (Sisters of Battle), Thunderwolf Cavalry (Space Wolves) and Azrael (Dark Angels) in one army...

You seriously give zero feths about any concept of lore, don't you?

I mean, anyone can not care. It takes real effort to not give a feth.

I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

Martel732 wrote:
I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

...Bullcrap.

Every rule, weapon, piece of wargear, model, unit, and faction originate in the lore. The terminology you use to refer to everything in the game originates in the lore.

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

...Bullcrap.

Every rule, weapon, piece of wargear, model, unit, and faction originate in the lore. The terminology you use to refer to everything in the game originates in the lore.

I mean you don't HAVE to follow the lore to build your army. I guess not being fluffy can make the best armies.

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

...Bullcrap.

Every rule, weapon, piece of wargear, model, unit, and faction originate in the lore. The terminology you use to refer to everything in the game originates in the lore.

>Martel rejects the lore
>Gets pissy when someone suggests playing his BA in a non-BA way.

 EnsignTuna wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

...Bullcrap.

Every rule, weapon, piece of wargear, model, unit, and faction originate in the lore. The terminology you use to refer to everything in the game originates in the lore.

I mean you don't HAVE to follow the lore to build your army. I guess not being fluffy can make the best armies.

You wanna know why Space Marines are more resilient individually than Imperial Guardsmen? The lore.

Wanna know why lascannons are most effective against tanks and less effective against hordes of Ork infantry? The lore.

Skimmers being able to ignore terrain when moving? The lore.

 Pouncey wrote:

 EnsignTuna wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

...Bullcrap.

Every rule, weapon, piece of wargear, model, unit, and faction originate in the lore. The terminology you use to refer to everything in the game originates in the lore.

I mean you don't HAVE to follow the lore to build your army. I guess not being fluffy can make the best armies.

You wanna know why Space Marines are more resilient individually than Imperial Guardsmen? The lore.

Wanna know why lascannons are most effective against tanks and less effective against hordes of Ork infantry? The lore.

Skimmers being able to ignore terrain when moving? The lore.

Obviously I didn't clarify my point. What I was trying to put forth is even though Martel put and bunch of units together that have no business being together in lore doesn't mean he should be burnt at stake for doing so. If he doesn't want his army to be fluffy he doesn't have too.

 EnsignTuna wrote:
Obviously I didn't clarify my point. What I was trying to put forth is even though Martel put and bunch of units together that have no business being together in lore doesn't mean he should be burnt at stake for doing so. If he doesn't want his army to be fluffy he doesn't have too.

He didn't say that he's okay with an unlikely combination of units that wouldn't ordinarily fight together.

He said he actively rejects the lore because it doesn't matter to the game at all.

It's not fluffy for the BA to be run off the table like little bitches by the Eldar, but that's what happens in the reality of the game.

I have no idea what a "fluffy" BA list looks like anyway. Probably full of terrible units.

 Pouncey wrote:

 EnsignTuna wrote:
Obviously I didn't clarify my point. What I was trying to put forth is even though Martel put and bunch of units together that have no business being together in lore doesn't mean he should be burnt at stake for doing so. If he doesn't want his army to be fluffy he doesn't have too.

He didn't say that he's okay with an unlikely combination of units that wouldn't ordinarily fight together.

He said he actively rejects the lore because it doesn't matter to the game at all.

I disagree with your interpretation of his response because of your opinion on lore:

 Pouncey wrote:

Exorcists (Sisters of Battle), Thunderwolf Cavalry (Space Wolves) and Azrael (Dark Angels) in one army...

You seriously give zero feths about any concept of lore, don't you?

I mean, anyone can not care. It takes real effort to not give a feth.

As you stated here, One can assume you were offended by the fact he put Exorcists, TWC, and Azrael in one army due to fluffy reasons. His response was that he didn't think the Lore mattered in terms of building an army.


Correct me if I'm wrong but no where in his response does he directly say that he thinks the Lore has no affect on the game.

 EnsignTuna wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 EnsignTuna wrote:
Obviously I didn't clarify my point. What I was trying to put forth is even though Martel put and bunch of units together that have no business being together in lore doesn't mean he should be burnt at stake for doing so. If he doesn't want his army to be fluffy he doesn't have too.

He didn't say that he's okay with an unlikely combination of units that wouldn't ordinarily fight together.

He said he actively rejects the lore because it doesn't matter to the game at all.

I disagree with your interpretation of his response because of your opinion on lore:

 Pouncey wrote:

Exorcists (Sisters of Battle), Thunderwolf Cavalry (Space Wolves) and Azrael (Dark Angels) in one army...

You seriously give zero feths about any concept of lore, don't you?

I mean, anyone can not care. It takes real effort to not give a feth.

As you stated here, One can assume you were offended by the fact he put Exorcists, TWC, and Azrael in one army due to fluffy reasons. His response was that he didn't think the Lore mattered in terms of building an army.


Correct me if I'm wrong but no where in his response does he directly say that he thinks the Lore has no affect on the game.

That was more of a small joke because I noticed that the proposed units were from 3 different armies that all don't like each other for various reasons.

It was his reply to that which set me off, which I will quote:

I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

He said it verbatim.

 Pouncey wrote:

That was more of a small joke because I noticed that the proposed units were from 3 different armies that all don't like each other for various reasons.

It was his reply to that which set me off, which I will quote:

I actively reject the lore, as it has no bearing on the game at all.

He said it verbatim.

Aw hell, in that case I probably sounded like an uptight douche bag. My bad

Martel732 wrote:
It's not fluffy for the BA to be run off the table like little bitches by the Eldar, but that's what happens in the reality of the game.

I have no idea what a "fluffy" BA list looks like anyway. Probably full of terrible units.

To be fair, Eldar Exodites are killed in fluff as much as Imperial Guardsmen are but I think you could careless.

Not following the lore XD

Martel732 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If that's what it takes, then maybe? As I said, the BA are in a mathematical hole that I don't see a clear way out of. Also, having no telepathy shouldn't be chapter-breaking, but it is. The devil is 100% in the details.

They're not in a hole, they just need to be C:SM with a unique chapter tactic and some characters and a unit or two ported over. For BA to be competitive, just take the Gladius, give it to BA, and match all point costs and have the same wargear armoury. Done in time for a pint at the Winchester.

You just described one way of getting out of the mathematical hole. But they are definitely in a mathematical hole. They can't mathematically get enough units into CC against Eldar and Tau to stand a chance. The can't mathematically shoot the real assault lists enough to survive.

Also, cowering in free Rhinos firing my grav cannons doesn't seem like very BA to me.

I get that you can't make the TT represent the fluff perfectly, but it should at least be attempted - especially when GW keeps shoving the "FORGE DAT NARRATIVE BRAH" gak down our throats.

Couldn't care less, actually.

I was the one that accidentally placed TWC, Azrael, and Exorcists in the same army, not Martel

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I was the one that accidentally placed TWC, Azrael, and Exorcists in the same army, not Martel

Nothing wrong with wanting to not suck.

 Selym wrote:
I get that you can't make the TT represent the fluff perfectly, but it should at least be attempted - especially when GW keeps shoving the "FORGE DAT NARRATIVE BRAH" gak down our throats.

I forged a narrative once. Spontaneously, too. It made the game so much better.

What happened was that I was down to two small units of Retributors with Heavy Bolters on opposite sides of my deployment zone. My Ork opponent's army had hardly been touched (poor positioning and strategy on my part; I basically got most of my army killed in a very avoidable situation) and were bearing down on the two units, who kept pumping fire into them. One of the Retributor units took casualties from some ranged fire (probably Lootas) and fled off the table.

Right then is where I forged that narrative, and I imagine that what had happened was that the unit that fled had taken too many casualties and injuries to stay effective, and were retreating, maybe with the hope of making it to some base they could warn about the Orks. And the other unit chose to cover their fellow Sisters as a sacrificial rearguard. So when they stood there, firing their weapons at those Orks until every last Sister on the field was dead, to me, it wasn't my army getting tabled after a crushing defeat, it was a heroic last stand with the goal of buying time for wounded survivors to escape.

I lost the game badly, but forging that narrative made it a very fun experience, in large part because a heroic last stand with no hope of survival is my favorite situation to find myself in in every PvP game I have ever played. Every time I find myself in that situation, it's been one of the best times of my gaming life. MMORPG, MMOFPS, arena FPS, Tabletop Miniatures Wargaming, doesn't matter the genre. If I find myself hopelessly outnumbered, barely holding the line, being pushed back more and more, and there is no way to win, I am going to have a blast. Even though it ALWAYS means I lose, and badly.

Tell me how else you turn a horrific defeat into an awesomely fun time, better than any victory you've ever had, without some sort of narrative running through your head.

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

Sisters of Battle have a dedicated melee unit with no armor save at all. Like, not even against lasguns.

Their lore calls them a suicide unit and their gameplay matches that concept completely.

Now you see, thats a suicide unit.
The Guard infantry are main line fighters.

The Guard infantry use attrition as their main weapon. Their job is basically a long, slow mass-suicide mission.

We are not a monolith.....

Different guard armies use their troops in different ways.

Not having telepathy isn't army breaking, the Space Mutts don't get it and they do just fine.
The BA problem is the same as the Tyranids, they're a melee army that can't get to charge range before being shot up beyond melee winning potential. 'Free' Rhinos are great for getting free mobile Storm Bolter platforms and that's about it, you can't charge out of a Rhino and you can't charge out of a Rhino wreckage so your best hope is to get first turn, flat out that Rhino and hope it gets wrecked but not exploded during your opponent's first turn, move the Assault guys up and hope that the Vehicles become cover rather than craters, hope your flyers come in sooner rather than later, hope they don't get shot down before they can drop and unload. That's more hoping than I care to buy into.

The reason I still hold that the 'Nids have it worse is that BA can still get all the major saves.

Space Mutts have TWC and Wulfen. And for them, it's worth bringing in some battle bros to get invis. There's nothing even in the BA book worth hitting with invis.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Orks need their customization back, mob rule to be a benefit, not a curse, for nob bikers to be priced more reasonably once people realize they are not the super scary unit they were in 5th, and the nauts to be moved up to super heavy

Nids need their swarms to be swarmier, their non flying MCs to be more valuable through better specialization, more customization options again, and for their formations and rules to be put in one place.

Dark Eldar need a total pass to bring back the cannon part of their glass cannon, and make them viable as more than just a Codex Eldar supplement. Return a lot of the wargear and customization options that were stripped out in 7th, return the bomber armor and price to that of 5th, make dodge saves on wyches work in CC and not just vs overwatch, let passengers on raiders do something useful again, bring back Vect and some of the other stripped out characters.

Bonus: Marines- Nerf ASTKNF to just autopass regroup checks, not autoregroup then act normally while everyone else can only move 3 inches and that's it. Bump drop pods up to 45 points, drop razorbacks to 45 base. No free vehicles for a battle company.

#1 Well the mod rule needs to be both a benefit and curse.... I still remember the fact when things go wrong for orks, they get pretty cowardly! But when they go well they're need a massive buff!

#2 It's weird, because nids swarms aren't really an issue, full upgraded gargoyles for example are possibly some of the best jump infantry in the game for their cost. Base termi's even without devourers are pretty respectable in their role, the only real change being hormagaunts need improving in some respect. Some of their issues is that their CC monstrous creatures need to be worthwhile taking, increase the speed or survivability of footslogging nid MC's, psychic powers and abilities (such as shadow of the warp) being so outdated they're mostly useless. Nid main issues is the fact they have so many units that are pointless such as biovores and many of their mid sized guys such as warriors are so weak.

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

Sisters of Battle have a dedicated melee unit with no armor save at all. Like, not even against lasguns.

Their lore calls them a suicide unit and their gameplay matches that concept completely.

Now you see, thats a suicide unit.
The Guard infantry are main line fighters.

The Guard infantry use attrition as their main weapon. Their job is basically a long, slow mass-suicide mission.

But if you read the fluff they're not..... sure you have some commanders who use wave style tactics, but generally speaking concerning their no1 enemy (rebels, chaos or otherwise), they're better equipped, organised and trained. They don't generally beat orks and nids in the fluff due to numbers now do they?

Even then in the game they don't really act as suicide units particularly well, sure they can tarpit, but they then rely on better units that just don't exist in their codex. All their specialists are pretty rubbish at their jobs, heavy weapon teams are a joke (especially point wise), ogryns are pretty pointless, rough riders are beyond redemption, in the current meta BS 3 Standard Russes are too unreliable, chimeras are over costed, storm troopers are unreliable glass wannabe cannons. Ratlings? Their main use is make their unit so small and cheap, it's a waste of anyones shooting to target the damn things!

Guards best and main competitive formation, in reality is possibly one of the most expensive and time consuming formations to buy out there!

Guards biggest success is when they use Distraction Carnifexes (which they don't really have, takes a dumb opponent), while their mechanised or airborne vets do most the work, with your wyverns and russ variants doing most the killing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The only thing they were really allied in for was more Drop Pods and that was stopped.

The army will almost disappear entirely. Watch.

Top player Adepticon 2016 picked them specifically to get a Sanguinary priest. A model so good he was willing to pay a 66 point tax for a 120 point model. He didn't get a single Drop Pod from it.
Does that make the codex fine, that it has one OP HQ choice? No, of course not. One HQ choice hardly makes an army. But it does show that it has something to offer, which is more than you can say for most codices. And I haven't heard one BA player say "Well, the Sanguinary Priest is really good..." because they would never admit to that. And if they can't admit to that, then I why should anything else they say be taken seriously? If you just go "MY EVERYTHING IS BAD!" and then I can point to at least one thing that clearly isn't, then that makes me think that you're just blowing it all out of proportion.

So honestly, at this point you can say whatever you want. Since I know you would never admit to a single good model, I know that you will bend it any way you can to be martyrs and I can't really trust a single word you say.

Martel732 wrote:
Space Mutts have TWC and Wulfen. And for them, it's worth bringing in some battle bros to get invis. There's nothing even in the BA book worth hitting with invis.

Like I said, ways of getting into charge range before they get shot up beyond melee winning potential. Space Wolves have TWC that can make charges turn one, they have Wulfen which can boost TWC, Bikers and Sky Claws/Sky Guard into charge range turn one, they have Land Raiders that are actually viable assault vehicles because they can get Jump Marines into charge range on the first turn.
Blood Angels need speed, not invisibility.

Sanguinary priests are actually better for non-BA lists because T5 models benefit disproportionately from FNP. Priests are okay, but they were better not taking up an HQ slot. They don't have the stats to be a good beat stick, they are just there to make a deathstar even more over the top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Mutts have TWC and Wulfen. And for them, it's worth bringing in some battle bros to get invis. There's nothing even in the BA book worth hitting with invis.

Like I said, ways of getting into charge range before they get shot up beyond melee winning potential. Space Wolves have TWC that can make charges turn one, they have Wulfen which can boost TWC, Bikers and Sky Claws/Sky Guard into charge range turn one, they have Land Raiders that are actually viable assault vehicles because they can get Jump Marines into charge range on the first turn.
Blood Angels need speed, not invisibility.

BA have speed. They don't have durability or killing power when they do manage to assault. If TWC and Wulfen didn't hit like a ton of bricks, their assault would be not nearly as impressive. Like BA.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
We are not a monolith.....

Different guard armies use their troops in different ways.

O.O

Tell me more of these Guardsmen who don't have their lives thrown away by the hundreds.

Because I like how IG tanks look and I want to eventually ally some together with my Sisters but don't want to treat my infantry as expendable.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's a dw version? Frag cannons are almost worthless vs plague marines as it is currently.

You're gonna love this.

The new Deathwatch codex has frag cannons in it as heavy weapons. The Vets can take up to 4 heavy weapons in a squad, including frag cannons.

The new profile is this: S6 AP- Template Assault 2 Shred, -or- 24" S7 AP3 Assault 2 Impact, where Impact changes the profile to S9 AP2 Assault 2 under 12".

25pts.

I don't understand why so many people at my GW were saying Deathwatch wasn't so hot when the book came out in just a few hours of release.

I mean you have a weapon that has a template version of what shredders for dark eldar do, a version of the cannon which is basically a short range double lascannon within assault range (so deepstrike or drop pod with them if possible) and just in general it sounds decent version monsters. Seriously it's a monster/vehicle and horde killer all in one weapon and that's exactly what deathwatch probably fights a lot. I mean for dark eldar we have instant death but the only way to get strength 9 is with the void raven. I don't think they'd be OP but they sound alright to me. Then again i play dark eldar.

-------

To be fair if the lore worked how games do the balance would be out the window in other ways. Guard would lose so much. I mean if i remember correctly while fighting tau and necrons guard seem to lose pretty much every time. Even against nids they tend to lose. The only things they used to do well against in the lore were orks, traitor guard, minor factions and sometimes eldar. At best when against nids they need to face a splinter fleet and even then it's not a sure thing they'll win. They're basically the punching bags of 40k and their lore alone helped kill my interest in them. I mean if the lore matched the tabletop game in that case guard would suck so bad nobody would even attempt to fight most factions. It just wouldn't be fun.

Martel732 wrote:
Sanguinary priests are actually better for non-BA lists because T5 models benefit disproportionately from FNP. Priests are okay, but they were better not taking up an HQ slot. They don't have the stats to be a good beat stick, they are just there to make a deathstar even more over the top.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Mutts have TWC and Wulfen. And for them, it's worth bringing in some battle bros to get invis. There's nothing even in the BA book worth hitting with invis.

Like I said, ways of getting into charge range before they get shot up beyond melee winning potential. Space Wolves have TWC that can make charges turn one, they have Wulfen which can boost TWC, Bikers and Sky Claws/Sky Guard into charge range turn one, they have Land Raiders that are actually viable assault vehicles because they can get Jump Marines into charge range on the first turn.
Blood Angels need speed, not invisibility.

BA have speed. They don't have durability or killing power when they do manage to assault. If TWC and Wulfen didn't hit like a ton of bricks, their assault would be not nearly as impressive. Like BA.

BA don't have Space Wolf speed, they don't have first turn assault speed unless their opponent is dumb enough to move something inside that 24' range for them.
Hitting like a ton of bricks is actually problematic, TWC often chew up their target and spit them out the turn they charged then get shot up in their opponent's first turn, having other less brutal units that can get first turn charges means being able to lock up units that the TWC would have torn through no matter how you rigged the assault, 2x 75 point squads of Sky Claws charging on the first turn can make a Tau Marker Drone formation irrelevant where a squad of decked out TWC will be exactly what they want to see.