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The difference to me is that I've distilled things down to the most viable things possible.

For example, fast obj sec Rhinos sometimes can make a game for me. Sometimes being fast in general is just good enough. But at that point, it's much more about my opponent making mistakes or rolling poorly at a critical juncture.

Russes are in the same bed as LRs. They have no place in 7th ed because of GW's weird design choices.

Land Raiders can do quite well if the unit inside is good at melee. Otherwise it's 250 points for a pair or trio of guns I could have anywhere else for much less.

 Selym wrote:
Land Raiders can do quite well if the unit inside is good at melee. Otherwise it's 250 points for a pair or trio of guns I could have anywhere else for much less.

No, it really can't. They get stuck on shrubs and get two-shotted by D-weapons. Even if it works, you paid 500+ points to assault one thing. Good job.

Two or more things. Done it as BT.

I voted the partial Codexes. That being both Cult Mechanicus books, the Sisters of Battle, the Militarum Tempestus, the Iquisition, and LEGION of the Dann.

 Selym wrote:
Two or more things. Done it as BT.

Then your opponent failed on his end. Don't ever count on that.

 Selym wrote:
Land Raiders can do quite well if the unit inside is good at melee. Otherwise it's 250 points for a pair or trio of guns I could have anywhere else for much less.

Anyone that thinks Land Raiders can do well isn't someone to take seriously. They're overpriced garbage as delivery and a gun platform.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

Coming from someone who doesn't know how to properly run his own army, this is pretty rich. If you can't beat BA with IG, you shouldn't be playing IG and expecting wins. Period. If you love the cool factor or the models etc, keep on keeping on. But if a shooting army with decently priced units can't beat a very poor CC army (with almost all of its units overpriced and underperforming ) in a shooting edition... the problem isn't the Guard codex is what I'm saying. The Guard book is poor, but not terribad like BA Orks and DE. It's been confirmed by countless bat reps, forum members... Pretty much everyone but two broken records in the GD section.

Ahahaha, very good, I dont know how to run my codex huh?
Okay, suggest to me a viable alternative to the standard list. Suggest to me a good list. Suggest to me something that can compete with Marines.

Whilst you may not want to admit it, the Guard are not a 'poor' codex, it is an unbelievably terrible one, to the point where we literally have no such thing as an Elites section, and as for decently priced units, well I would like to ask which ones these are - the overpriced infantry? The laughably priced transports? The Heavy Weapon Teams that take up huge amounts of points? The Tanks that are vastly overpriced? The Lord Commissars - AKA the extinct HQ choice?
The only broken records here are the BA players that seem to think they are more hard done too than any other army here, and insist on focing this down our throats Every. Single. Thread.

Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Okay guys, today something really weird happened. I faced 30K Iron Warriors in a Bunker Assault mission (the Last Stand one) and won. Overwhelmingly.

Not only is 30k considerably more balanced than 40k (it isn't like 40k Marines who have a weak codex with a few utterly broken combos and formations scattered on top, every unit in 30k is useful), they are also horrifically vulnerable to IG Ap3 artillery spam.

It is not at all weird, it is just you spending so much time telling everyone how terrible your army is that you even start to believe it yourself. If you work to make your lists good and stop facing cheaters, you will find that your situation is really not as bad as you say.

I wasnt even using Artillery spam - hell the only blasts I had where my Macro Cannon and my Thunderer. The real clincher was my Macro Cannon bunker - which killed one Vindicator and a Veteran marine - proving to be a true DISTRACTION CARNIFEX by tanking a vast amount of hits. even though it was left unable to shoot (snapshooting) twice, the Enginseer managed to keep on repairing it every time it was damaged.
In the meantime, the Infantry which where actually my opponents objective to kill sat there safe and sound as he directed all his firepower at the perceived threat.

Martel732 wrote:I keep telling him to quit using russes because the game has passed those units by.

Give me a good, viable alternative for my damage output. Wyverns are all very well and good, but they do jack all against transports and vehicles and they are murdered by DropPods and Deepstrikers.

Ashiraya wrote:I can see him facing an SM aircavalry list with an artillery list and complaining how OP SM are. >.<
MoO, are you still using your battles with that cheater of yours as the measure of how good your codex is?

I dont have any Artillery, given how laughable they are. How many points for an open topped AV 12/10/20 model whos only advantage is its range, an advantage that will never be used on the standard table top? No thanks.
And no Ashiraya I am not, this goes for most MEQ's. As for the cheater, well he has been neutered now that people only play him if he brings a priced out list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Land Raiders can do quite well if the unit inside is good at melee. Otherwise it's 250 points for a pair or trio of guns I could have anywhere else for much less.

Anyone that thinks Land Raiders can do well isn't someone to take seriously. They're overpriced garbage as delivery and a gun platform.

AV 14/14/14 is not to be sniffed at.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Land Raiders can do quite well if the unit inside is good at melee. Otherwise it's 250 points for a pair or trio of guns I could have anywhere else for much less.

Anyone that thinks Land Raiders can do well isn't someone to take seriously. They're overpriced garbage as delivery and a gun platform.

AV 14/14/14 is not to be sniffed at.

When it costs 250 points and doesn't do anything it is.

We're paying a metric crapton of points for AV that is ignored by some of the most prolific weapons in the game. Melta, Haywire, Gauss, Grav, Str. D, the list goes on, and that's when you're not getting stuck on terrain making your 250 point transport and the unit inside a massive load. Honestly, the two things saving Black Templars from being down at the bottom with BA, IG et. al. is that we can take formations (Gladius and Skyhammer, although we've got what is probably the worst Gladius) and Grav-cannons. That's it. Land Raiders are an OK-ish unit against the worst Codices in the game, that should say something about its power level.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Land Raiders can do quite well if the unit inside is good at melee. Otherwise it's 250 points for a pair or trio of guns I could have anywhere else for much less.

Anyone that thinks Land Raiders can do well isn't someone to take seriously. They're overpriced garbage as delivery and a gun platform.

AV 14/14/14 is not to be sniffed at.

When it costs 250 points and doesn't do anything it is.

We're paying a metric crapton of points for AV that is ignored by some of the most prolific weapons in the game. Melta, Haywire, Gauss, Grav, Str. D, the list goes on, and that's when you're not getting stuck on terrain making your 250 point transport and the unit inside a massive load. Honestly, the two things saving Black Templars from being down at the bottom with BA, IG et. al. is that we can take formations (Gladius and Skyhammer, although we've got what is probably the worst Gladius) and Grav-cannons. That's it. Land Raiders are an OK-ish unit against the worst Codices in the game, that should say something about its power level.

Yeah, I have to agree with you. The sheer number of stupidly powerful weapons and units within the game does make the Landraider somewhat pointless. It has become another victim of the power creep.

"I dont know how to run my codex huh? "

You've shown this many times.

"Give me a good, viable alternative for my damage output"

Russes have zero output when they are shaken or blown up by D-weapons. They are 100% liabilities in 7th. Quit using them. And quit letting people tailor against you. That's half your problem.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am still laughing at all the "muh mureens ur bad" players, but it is a bitter laugh.
Try playing an army where you dont get armour saves, where you roll bucket loads of dice to get a couple of wounds and your heavy hitters have been systematically nerfed in to the ground.
Welcome to the Guard.

Or alternatively you can keep on "muh poor mureens" and invariably GW will give you yet another hand out.

Coming from someone who doesn't know how to properly run his own army, this is pretty rich. If you can't beat BA with IG, you shouldn't be playing IG and expecting wins. Period. If you love the cool factor or the models etc, keep on keeping on. But if a shooting army with decently priced units can't beat a very poor CC army (with almost all of its units overpriced and underperforming ) in a shooting edition... the problem isn't the Guard codex is what I'm saying. The Guard book is poor, but not terribad like BA Orks and DE. It's been confirmed by countless bat reps, forum members... Pretty much everyone but two broken records in the GD section.

Ahahaha, very good, I dont know how to run my codex huh?
Okay, suggest to me a viable alternative to the standard list. Suggest to me a good list. Suggest to me something that can compete with Marines.

Whilst you may not want to admit it, the Guard are not a 'poor' codex, it is an unbelievably terrible one, to the point where we literally have no such thing as an Elites section, and as for decently priced units, well I would like to ask which ones these are - the overpriced infantry? The laughably priced transports? The Heavy Weapon Teams that take up huge amounts of points? The Tanks that are vastly overpriced? The Lord Commissars - AKA the extinct HQ choice?
The only broken records here are the BA players that seem to think they are more hard done too than any other army here, and insist on focing this down our throats Every. Single. Thread.

Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Okay guys, today something really weird happened. I faced 30K Iron Warriors in a Bunker Assault mission (the Last Stand one) and won. Overwhelmingly.

Not only is 30k considerably more balanced than 40k (it isn't like 40k Marines who have a weak codex with a few utterly broken combos and formations scattered on top, every unit in 30k is useful), they are also horrifically vulnerable to IG Ap3 artillery spam.

It is not at all weird, it is just you spending so much time telling everyone how terrible your army is that you even start to believe it yourself. If you work to make your lists good and stop facing cheaters, you will find that your situation is really not as bad as you say.

I wasnt even using Artillery spam - hell the only blasts I had where my Macro Cannon and my Thunderer. The real clincher was my Macro Cannon bunker - which killed one Vindicator and a Veteran marine - proving to be a true DISTRACTION CARNIFEX by tanking a vast amount of hits. even though it was left unable to shoot (snapshooting) twice, the Enginseer managed to keep on repairing it every time it was damaged.
In the meantime, the Infantry which where actually my opponents objective to kill sat there safe and sound as he directed all his firepower at the perceived threat.

Martel732 wrote:I keep telling him to quit using russes because the game has passed those units by.

Give me a good, viable alternative for my damage output. Wyverns are all very well and good, but they do jack all against transports and vehicles and they are murdered by DropPods and Deepstrikers.

Ashiraya wrote:I can see him facing an SM aircavalry list with an artillery list and complaining how OP SM are. >.<
MoO, are you still using your battles with that cheater of yours as the measure of how good your codex is?

I dont have any Artillery, given how laughable they are. How many points for an open topped AV 12/10/20 model whos only advantage is its range, an advantage that will never be used on the standard table top? No thanks.
And no Ashiraya I am not, this goes for most MEQ's. As for the cheater, well he has been neutered now that people only play him if he brings a priced out list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Land Raiders can do quite well if the unit inside is good at melee. Otherwise it's 250 points for a pair or trio of guns I could have anywhere else for much less.

Anyone that thinks Land Raiders can do well isn't someone to take seriously. They're overpriced garbage as delivery and a gun platform.

AV 14/14/14 is not to be sniffed at.

It is when the top armies ignore it or the lower codices have easy ways to get Melta over there. Seriously, two Chimeras with Melta Vets doesn't cost much over 300 points, you get almost all your points back, one squad dies, and the other one fires Melta Guns into that melee squad which definitely ensures two kills. The Taurox makes this cheaper in case you just know the vehicles are going to die regardless and has that nifty dangerous terrain bonus. Nobody will hate you proxying Taurox with Chimeras either because everyone hates the Taurox model.

The only army that can't readily deal with AV14 effectively is Orks. Some people say Tyranids but they have those haywire templates on their five Tyrants so they're fine.

Martel732 wrote:
"I dont know how to run my codex huh? "

You've shown this many times.

Give me an example.

"Give me a good, viable alternative for my damage output"

Russes have zero output when they are shaken or blown up by D-weapons. They are 100% liabilities in 7th. Quit using them. And quit letting people tailor against you. That's half your problem.

And what alternatives are there? Come on Martel, give me something here. After all, you are so quick to criticise my lists and units but you have yet to provide a viable alternative beyond "Wyverns" which are only really good against horde Infantry.

Wyverns are good against more than hordes. You don't even understand your own units. Hence, why I say you can't run your own codex.

You've already dismissed IG lists that I've seen punk out lists that give you trouble. Wyvern/div psyker/air cav works.

And quit letting your opponents list tailor.

Wyverns kill MEQ and even TEQ as well through something very important; cheap volume of fire.

Who cares if you don't ignore their armour if you can put out so many more wounds that it does not matter?

This concept is what makes scatterbikes and missilesides useful.

It also ignores cover, which makes DA very, very VERY sad. And a bunch of Tyranid stuff, too, actually.

And yet it does nothing against transports. Note that. Transports, not Infantry.

You gotta use the FW artillery carriages, for the price of a LR, you get 2 Earthshakers that might or might not be tougher to kill, with ranged weapons, anyway.

 master of ordinance wrote:
And yet it does nothing against transports. Note that. Transports, not Infantry.

How many transports in the game are hard for IG to kill? Not many. They're vehicles. Autocannons/lascannons work fine. As do multilasers and assault cannons from sentinels.

Yeah, what transports are ran anymore outside Rhinos/Razorbacks? Sure the odd Ghost Ark or Wave Serpent pops up from time to time, but that is it.

MoO

Many people have suggested units that work (that DO work) and you just shot down the suggestions as ineffective when everyone else's experience suggests otherwise. Unless you're playing 3rd edition, a marine army that only your store has heard of, a cheater or IH smashfucker star with grav spam all day every day these units WILL work:

Wyvern units
Plasma/mech vets
Psykers
Outflanking sentinel formation
Conscript blobs with commissar
Platoons (HWTs optional, but advisable)
FW artillery
Command squads
Vendettas
Valkryie with melta/plasma vets


Here's the key though (in my experience with IG); don't count on single units (other than maybe suicide vets) to accomplish the designated task. A platoon of 60 dudes doesn't seem threatening. 2 platoons on 60 dudes that are stubborn LD 9, have Rending or 4 up invuln and/or Prescience and orders that know how to prioritize shooting IS a thread. IG is a team player army much higher like dark eldar. If you rely on stats you're going to lose all the time. If you play to the army's strengths (numbers and dakka )apply the buffs appropriately, you will at the very least do better.

Know when and what to shoot in what order. Know what orders and psychic powers to issue and to who. Know how/where to deploy and to keep your spacing. Know what the opponent is likely to do this turn and what will happen next turn as a result. Know what units are worth tarputting or when going to ground/running etc is worth sacrificing your shooting.

BTW on the pricing is agree that HWTs are over priced, but there's not much that can be done without causing a ridiculous ripple effect.

On the last note, if you insist on taking tanks, the only variants even worth considering are demolishers (without sponsons ) and punishers. Usually in A unit of 2 while units of 2 or more wyverns with camo netting take up your other slots.

I have no doubt I've told you this before, as have at least half a dozen other posters who have experience with Guard and you almost always respond with a "nope. Doesn't work, because spehss mureens " like 5 minutes later, even though we all know it does.the best way to kill everything in the marine book is to spam it with wounds. Treat ap as a,luxury and use it accordingly.

Best of luck man, I really mean that, but if you're not changing things up, developing new strategies/combos and most importantly using your IG as a team-like army instead of individual units that's kind of your problem. Not the books.

A guaranteed way to kill nearly any marine unit that is not invis is to cast misfortune on it and use a flamer special weapon team .

Good thing primaris psykers have access to the Runes of Fate table

Also, MoO, you can give no reciprocal advice for BA players, because BA have even fewer effective units than IG. And you, like 80% of the people on here, have little experience with non-skyhammer, non-grav, non-death star marines. BA are still playing 5th by design.

?
Misfortune is a divination power.

Divination is stupid good for IG.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are still playing 5th by design.

So are IG and CSM.

@ Martel: I know. Sorry that comment was directed at Selym.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA are still playing 5th by design.

So are IG and CSM.

That's true, but IG is a shooting list in a shooting edition. BA and CSM can't shoot or assault.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
?
Misfortune is a divination power.

Is it?

I may be misremembering.

Alright, I change my statement; At least Primaris Psykers don't cost as much as a Librarian and are easy to spam.