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I think you're confusing it with Fortune (which is a Rune of Fate power).

That's my point. I've got a guy in my group who does it very successfully but MoO doesn't want to hear it. I'm open to any and all BA idea, but there's just not enough variety in that codex.

Does he do it successfully only against BA? Because if that's true, then there's not point listening to anything else you have to say.

 Selym wrote:
Does he do it successfully only against BA? Because if that's true, then there's not point listening to anything else you have to say.

No, no. He's at least 50/50 vs mid tier lists. DA in particular get brutalized, because he's had ignore cover on every infantry squad before between psykers and orders. And of course, the wyverns ignore cover. He beats Gladius pretty frequently, too. Pop transport -> bombard with wyverns. Over and over.

How does he deal with the rare tank spam?

 Selym wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
?
Misfortune is a divination power.

Is it?

I may be misremembering.

Alright, I change my statement; At least Primaris Psykers don't cost as much as a Librarian and are easy to spam.

Aren't Primaris Psykers an HQ choice that you can only take 2 of in a standard detachment thingy?

Exactly. And they cost 70 points. It's like a Librarian with a statline that's worse in every possible way, wargear that's worse in every possible way, a smaller selection of psychic tables, a lower Ld and in an army with nothing that will be any help in keeping it alive.

 Selym wrote:
How does he deal with the rare tank spam?

No one tank spams. Too many Eldar.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Does he do it successfully only against BA? Because if that's true, then there's not point listening to anything else you have to say.

No, no. He's at least 50/50 vs mid tier lists. DA in particular get brutalized, because he's had ignore cover on every infantry squad before between psykers and orders. And of course, the wyverns ignore cover. He beats Gladius pretty frequently, too. Pop transport -> bombard with wyverns. Over and over.

Aye, but how is he acheiving that?

Primaris Psykers are an utter joke. They cost nearly as much as a Librarian but have none of the utility or survivability and all those powers such as twinlinked and 4+ Invun have to be rolled for first and then cast. They also require running Bolb Guard who are only effective if you get the 4+ invun for them and cast it. Dont get it or fail to cast and you are left with 50 ineffective and soon to be very dead bodies.

 Selym wrote:
Exactly. And they cost 70 points. It's like a Librarian with a statline that's worse in every possible way, wargear that's worse in every possible way, a smaller selection of psychic tables, a lower Ld and in an army with nothing that will be any help in keeping it alive.

LoS is a magical thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Does he do it successfully only against BA? Because if that's true, then there's not point listening to anything else you have to say.

No, no. He's at least 50/50 vs mid tier lists. DA in particular get brutalized, because he's had ignore cover on every infantry squad before between psykers and orders. And of course, the wyverns ignore cover. He beats Gladius pretty frequently, too. Pop transport -> bombard with wyverns. Over and over.

Aye, but how is he acheiving that?

Primaris Psykers are an utter joke. They cost nearly as much as a Librarian but have none of the utility or survivability and all those powers such as twinlinked and 4+ Invun have to be rolled for first and then cast. They also require running Bolb Guard who are only effective if you get the 4+ invun for them and cast it. Dont get it or fail to cast and you are left with 50 ineffective and soon to be very dead bodies.

You bring enough psykers that you get a 90+% chance of getting two of them with 4++. It's just like with BA: I don't use lists with less than four librarians anymore.

 Selym wrote:
Exactly. And they cost 70 points. It's like a Librarian with a statline that's worse in every possible way, wargear that's worse in every possible way, a smaller selection of psychic tables, a lower Ld and in an army with nothing that will be any help in keeping it alive.

My point was more that taking 2 of something isn't exactly "spamming" them.

Misquote

Martel732 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Does he do it successfully only against BA? Because if that's true, then there's not point listening to anything else you have to say.

No, no. He's at least 50/50 vs mid tier lists. DA in particular get brutalized, because he's had ignore cover on every infantry squad before between psykers and orders. And of course, the wyverns ignore cover. He beats Gladius pretty frequently, too. Pop transport -> bombard with wyverns. Over and over.

Aye, but how is he acheiving that?

Primaris Psykers are an utter joke. They cost nearly as much as a Librarian but have none of the utility or survivability and all those powers such as twinlinked and 4+ Invun have to be rolled for first and then cast. They also require running Bolb Guard who are only effective if you get the 4+ invun for them and cast it. Dont get it or fail to cast and you are left with 50 ineffective and soon to be very dead bodies.

You bring enough psykers that you get a 90+% chance of getting two of them with 4++. It's just like with BA: I don't use lists with less than four librarians anymore.

But you can only bring two of them because they are a HQ choice. And if you do so then you have two models and still have to take the risk of there being a 33.3'% chance (assuming you upgraded both to L2) that you wont get the 4+invun.

How do you think I'm bringing 4 libbies in one list?

Dual CAD?

Ding ding ding ding ding.

For IG, it can be double CAD with 4X primaris or triple CAD with 6X primaris guys. Plenty of places to hide.

Leave useless Russes at home, you get points for a lot of good stuff.

Martel732 wrote:
Ding ding ding ding ding.

For IG, it can be double CAD with 4X primaris or triple CAD with 6X primaris guys. Plenty of places to hide.

Leave useless Russes at home, you get points for a lot of good stuff.

Unless the FAQ has changed the rules, Primaris Psykers don't use up HQ slots...

Each IG detachment can simply take 0-3 of them.

Same deal with Priests & Engineseers (0-3 per detachment)
Commissars are slightly different, in that while they also do not 'use up' any HQ slots, they are instead limited to 0-1 per Company/Platoon Command Squads in the army.

Martel732 wrote:How do you think I'm bringing 4 libbies in one list?

Libby conclave?

Martel732 wrote:Ding ding ding ding ding.

For IG, it can be double CAD with 4X primaris or triple CAD with 6X primaris guys. Plenty of places to hide.

Leave useless Russes at home, you get points for a lot of good stuff.

It could be but then it is 280 points (or 420) on 4 (or 6) very squishy models. I have tried them before but they just seem..... Lacklustre when compared to other psykers or even other units in the codex. Dont get me wrong, they are okayish, but I prefer to ally with Inquisition and Marines for my psykers these days. Inquisitors in particular make really good psychic units as they can also be really tough and can hit hard.

Russes are still the biggest heavy hitters we have in the codex and Exterminators make really good transport poppers (I dont know who it was who was calling the Punisher and the Demolisher "good" but they really are not). If the enemy Infantry are not in transports then Wyverns are okay, however very few people run foot Infantry that much these days and Wyverns are not hard to pop, especially as my club lacks LOS blocking terrain. Wyverns are also stupidly vulnerable to DS and outflanking units.
The thing that really loses me matches though is the sheer lack of manoeuvrability and staying power. Pushing objectives beyond your deployment zone is really hard and holding them is laughable.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ding ding ding ding ding.

For IG, it can be double CAD with 4X primaris or triple CAD with 6X primaris guys. Plenty of places to hide.

Leave useless Russes at home, you get points for a lot of good stuff.

Unless the FAQ has changed the rules, Primaris Psykers don't use up HQ slots...

Each IG detachment can simply take 0-3 of them.

Same deal with Priests & Engineseers (0-3 per detachment)
Commissars are slightly different, in that while they also do not 'use up' any HQ slots, they are instead limited to 0-1 per Company/Platoon Command Squads in the army.

Ah.

I think my Codex is out of date then, as the last time I made an IG list, Primaris Psykers were a proper HQ choice.

 Pouncey wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ding ding ding ding ding.

For IG, it can be double CAD with 4X primaris or triple CAD with 6X primaris guys. Plenty of places to hide.

Leave useless Russes at home, you get points for a lot of good stuff.

Unless the FAQ has changed the rules, Primaris Psykers don't use up HQ slots...

Each IG detachment can simply take 0-3 of them.

Same deal with Priests & Engineseers (0-3 per detachment)
Commissars are slightly different, in that while they also do not 'use up' any HQ slots, they are instead limited to 0-1 per Company/Platoon Command Squads in the army.

Ah.

I think my Codex is out of date then, as the last time I made an IG list, Primaris Psykers were a proper HQ choice.

Is your codex called Imperial guard? If it is then it is the old one. I couldnt tell you by the Primaris Psyker entry though - I took one look at the profile when it was released, laughed bitterly and promptly forgot it existed.

 master of ordinance wrote:
It could be but then it is 280 points (or 420) on 4 (or 6) very squishy models. I have tried them before but they just seem..... Lacklustre when compared to other psykers or even other units in the codex. Dont get me wrong, they are okayish, but I prefer to ally with Inquisition and Marines for my psykers these days. Inquisitors in particular make really good psychic units as they can also be really tough and can hit hard.

Russes are still the biggest heavy hitters we have in the codex and Exterminators make really good transport poppers (I dont know who it was who was calling the Punisher and the Demolisher "good" but they really are not). If the enemy Infantry are not in transports then Wyverns are okay, however very few people run foot Infantry that much these days and Wyverns are not hard to pop, especially as my club lacks LOS blocking terrain. Wyverns are also stupidly vulnerable to DS and outflanking units.
The thing that really loses me matches though is the sheer lack of manoeuvrability and staying power. Pushing objectives beyond your deployment zone is really hard and holding them is laughable.

It's not like you're spending those extra points on nothing, you do actually get the Troops you're spending those points on.

So instead of taking, say, 4 or 6 Veteran Squads in one CAD, you take 2 Veteran Squads in each of your two or three CADs.

Or if you take Platoons, then you can just make each of them small instead of maxing them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ding ding ding ding ding.

For IG, it can be double CAD with 4X primaris or triple CAD with 6X primaris guys. Plenty of places to hide.

Leave useless Russes at home, you get points for a lot of good stuff.

Unless the FAQ has changed the rules, Primaris Psykers don't use up HQ slots...

Each IG detachment can simply take 0-3 of them.

Same deal with Priests & Engineseers (0-3 per detachment)
Commissars are slightly different, in that while they also do not 'use up' any HQ slots, they are instead limited to 0-1 per Company/Platoon Command Squads in the army.

Ah.

I think my Codex is out of date then, as the last time I made an IG list, Primaris Psykers were a proper HQ choice.

Is your codex called Imperial guard? If it is then it is the old one. I couldnt tell you by the Primaris Psyker entry though - I took one look at the profile when it was released, laughed bitterly and promptly forgot it existed.

I don't know, it's been in a box for over a year along with almost all of my models.

Front cover. If it says Astra Militarium then its the current one.

I prefer to run my armies as 'Veteran Platoons' - IE CCS with 4 to 6 Veteran sections plus supporting units. However if I am going to expand I will need ore troops and well, without a job I cannot afford £20+ for ten bods.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Front cover. If it says Astra Militarium then its the current one.

I prefer to run my armies as 'Veteran Platoons' - IE CCS with 4 to 6 Veteran sections plus supporting units. However if I am going to expand I will need ore troops and well, without a job I cannot afford £20+ for ten bods.

Finding out what it says on the front cover would require being able to see the front cover.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Exactly. And they cost 70 points. It's like a Librarian with a statline that's worse in every possible way, wargear that's worse in every possible way, a smaller selection of psychic tables, a lower Ld and in an army with nothing that will be any help in keeping it alive.

My point was more that taking 2 of something isn't exactly "spamming" them.

So was mine. I was being sarcastic, in relation to my misinformed earlier post about their choices of powers.

BA can't take libby conclave. Try again.

The one thing that keeps getting pushed around her that should be considered is the viability of bringing a crap-ton of guardsmen is not only impractical in terms of money and time for most guard players but also if the dice are not in your favour those mass bodies get annihilated without doing anything at all.

@Martel you keep stating using more LOS terrain to help blob guard, but have you tried to hide 60+ models on a 6x4 board with a ton of terrain, HAH

I never said that once. What are you talking about?

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
The one thing that keeps getting pushed around her that should be considered is the viability of bringing a crap-ton of guardsmen is not only impractical in terms of money and time for most guard players but also if the dice are not in your favour those mass bodies get annihilated without doing anything at all.

@Martel you keep stating using more LOS terrain to help blob guard, but have you tried to hide 60+ models on a 6x4 board with a ton of terrain, HAH

I've seen IG infantry hiding behind Defence Lines in their own deployment zone. They still died in droves.

 Pouncey wrote:

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
The one thing that keeps getting pushed around her that should be considered is the viability of bringing a crap-ton of guardsmen is not only impractical in terms of money and time for most guard players but also if the dice are not in your favour those mass bodies get annihilated without doing anything at all.

@Martel you keep stating using more LOS terrain to help blob guard, but have you tried to hide 60+ models on a 6x4 board with a ton of terrain, HAH

I've seen IG infantry hiding behind Defence Lines in their own deployment zone. They still died in droves.

Again, was did the IG opponent have the opportunity to list tailor? Scatterlasers, for example, are actually less efficient vs guardsmen than marines. Many, many lists deck themselves out to kill marines, not geqs.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Exactly. And they cost 70 points. It's like a Librarian with a statline that's worse in every possible way, wargear that's worse in every possible way, a smaller selection of psychic tables, a lower Ld and in an army with nothing that will be any help in keeping it alive.

LoS is a magical thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Does he do it successfully only against BA? Because if that's true, then there's not point listening to anything else you have to say.

No, no. He's at least 50/50 vs mid tier lists. DA in particular get brutalized, because he's had ignore cover on every infantry squad before between psykers and orders. And of course, the wyverns ignore cover. He beats Gladius pretty frequently, too. Pop transport -> bombard with wyverns. Over and over.

Aye, but how is he acheiving that?

Primaris Psykers are an utter joke. They cost nearly as much as a Librarian but have none of the utility or survivability and all those powers such as twinlinked and 4+ Invun have to be rolled for first and then cast. They also require running Bolb Guard who are only effective if you get the 4+ invun for them and cast it. Dont get it or fail to cast and you are left with 50 ineffective and soon to be very dead bodies.

You bring enough psykers that you get a 90+% chance of getting two of them with 4++. It's just like with BA: I don't use lists with less than four librarians anymore.

See above, sorry I interpreted that as "Bring more LOS terrain". Still the point is bringing a metric tonne or heck an imperial ton of regular guardsmen is not defacto better than any marine variant in any game I've played and bringing that sort of army in a tournament setting causes turns to be so monotonous and long that no-one wants to play you. That's why I'd have to agree on some levels that overall Astra Militarum is a bad army.

But overall the one I voted for was Chaos Space Marines, they are supposed to be the main villain no, hardly seems like it on the tabletop sometimes