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" bringing that sort of army in a tournament setting causes turns to be so monotonous and long that no-one wants to play you."

How is it more monotonous than scatterbike/WK/warp spider or Riptide wing/markerlight source/broadside or Wulfen/TWC/Superfriends?

You use what works, and leave everything else at home.

And the point is that the list in question is artillery/pskyer/infantry/air cav, not all infantry. Oh, and sentinels.

Martel732 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
The one thing that keeps getting pushed around her that should be considered is the viability of bringing a crap-ton of guardsmen is not only impractical in terms of money and time for most guard players but also if the dice are not in your favour those mass bodies get annihilated without doing anything at all.

@Martel you keep stating using more LOS terrain to help blob guard, but have you tried to hide 60+ models on a 6x4 board with a ton of terrain, HAH

I've seen IG infantry hiding behind Defence Lines in their own deployment zone. They still died in droves.

Again, was did the IG opponent have the opportunity to list tailor? Scatterlasers, for example, are actually less efficient vs guardsmen than marines. Many, many lists deck themselves out to kill marines, not geqs.

They were playing against my Sisters of Battle, and the fact that I'd be playing Sisters of Battle was known.

Ultimately though, it was her first game using Imperial Guard. And I guess there is the fact that I was the one who wrote the IG list, so it's entirely possible I subconsciously wrote it in a way that would ensure my victory.

/head desk

Martel732 wrote:
/head desk

Yes, in retrospect it was a terrible example that I never should have brought up.

Guardsmen with 4++ saves become incredibly frustrating to deal with. Trust me on this.

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen with 4++ saves become incredibly frustrating to deal with. Trust me on this.

I believe I will, since everyone who's talked about IG infantry in the past has said that cover is key to making them survive.

4++ is invuln in this case.

Martel732 wrote:
4++ is invuln in this case.

...Where are the IG getting a 4++ invulnerable save from on a consistent basis?

The four to six divination psykers we just discussed in the thread.

My experience, playing both IG and BA [until I wisened up and switched to Red Vanilla Marines] was that I could potentially win any game with BA, but I could not potentially win any game with IG, as the strongest builds in IG require you to mostly sit still and then have a few objective snagging units to leave your DZ.

My objective snagging units were invariably targeted for destruction, so were wiped out, leaving me to only be able to effectively score points in my DZ. If there were 0-1 objectives in my DZ, I could predict a loss in every one of those games.

I was more successful in playing BA, than I was playing IG, and I've been playing Guard since the Eye of Terror campaign. Loved me those plastic Cadians. I'm not saying that I won much with BA, but I did win on occasion, while I lost every game with IG [in 7th].

I'd rather take IG than Blood Angels and I say that as a person that plays Space Marines a lot.

@greatbigtree

Just use LOS block and some psykers. You clearly don't know what you are doing.

 greatbigtree wrote:
My experience, playing both IG and BA [until I wisened up and switched to Red Vanilla Marines] was that I could potentially win any game with BA, but I could not potentially win any game with IG, as the strongest builds in IG require you to mostly sit still and then have a few objective snagging units to leave your DZ.

My objective snagging units were invariably targeted for destruction, so were wiped out, leaving me to only be able to effectively score points in my DZ. If there were 0-1 objectives in my DZ, I could predict a loss in every one of those games.

I was more successful in playing BA, than I was playing IG, and I've been playing Guard since the Eye of Terror campaign. Loved me those plastic Cadians. I'm not saying that I won much with BA, but I did win on occasion, while I lost every game with IG [in 7th].

This, totally this. Wish I could type better, I've played guard since 3rd edition and only won a lot in the intern period of 4th-5th when I changed to full mechanized. My fiancee's BA done quite fine against most lists she's faced, she even walloped an Eldar Scat bike list whereas I faced the same opponent with cover hidden blobs and just lost completely with decent causalities but mainly due to mobility issues.

You clearly need to improve your listbuilding - Wyverns are the only HS you should use.

Martel732 wrote:
The four to six divination psykers we just discussed in the thread.

Given that they're not guaranteed to get that particular ability (I think), I seriously doubt they're going to be able to cover even half of their army with that spell.

Does it play out differently in reality?

Yes, you place your infantry on the table, and then someone comes along with a pieplate.

The sods.

 Selym wrote:
You clearly need to improve your listbuilding - Wyverns are the only HS you should use.

Well I should clarify I have done better since I sold my Catachans are started using some of the formations from the Cadian Codex Supplement, but frankly I don't think its been my list building, just my unannturally bad luck with dice. Average game I play I roll a lot of 1's, heck my Pathfinder group gave me the nickname "Critical Failure" due to my propensity to roll ones on d20's. I think I'm going to go back to just reading thoughts here as this is off what the OP was asking I believe

I still think the worst army is by far Chaos Space Marines, so my gripes on my Guard and my fiancees BA is moot

 Selym wrote:
Yes, you place your infantry on the table, and then someone comes along with a pieplate.

The sods.

Pie plates are heavily out of favor in many groups because they don't do a thing vs MCs and GMCs. Or SHW's.

 SwampRats45MK wrote:

 Selym wrote:
You clearly need to improve your listbuilding - Wyverns are the only HS you should use.

Well I should clarify I have done better since I sold my Catachans are started using some of the formations from the Cadian Codex Supplement, but frankly I don't think its been my list building, just my unannturally bad luck with dice. Average game I play I roll a lot of 1's, heck my Pathfinder group gave me the nickname "Critical Failure" due to my propensity to roll ones on d20's. I think I'm going to go back to just reading thoughts here as this is off what the OP was asking I believe

I still think the worst army is by far Chaos Space Marines, so my gripes on my Guard and my fiancees BA is moot

I feel ya on the rolls, buddy. IG is oddly unforgiving of bad rolls. I have gone entire games without hitting anything with battlecannons on my russes :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Yes, you place your infantry on the table, and then someone comes along with a pieplate.

The sods.

Pie plates are heavily out of favor in many groups because they don't do a thing vs MCs and GMCs. Or SHW's.

Fun fact: IG's schtick most of the time is to spam pieplates and templates. Guess what they usually go up against.

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The four to six divination psykers we just discussed in the thread.

Given that they're not guaranteed to get that particular ability (I think), I seriously doubt they're going to be able to cover even half of their army with that spell.

Does it play out differently in reality?

Four LV1 Psykers rolling on the same table means a little over half your games you get it. Add more Psykers and Mastery Levels for taste.

Why is anyone shocked that giving large numbers of models 4++ saves, rerolls to hit, full BS overwatch and ignore cover a decent list? It's not world beating, it's mid-tier. Which means it usually wins vs trash and usually loses to Eldar. Why is this so controversial?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The four to six divination psykers we just discussed in the thread.

Given that they're not guaranteed to get that particular ability (I think), I seriously doubt they're going to be able to cover even half of their army with that spell.

Does it play out differently in reality?

Four LV1 Psykers rolling on the same table means a little over half your games you get it. Add more Psykers and Mastery Levels for taste.

I guess I'm not very familiar with psykers as my main army doesn't actually have any psykers whatsoever.

If one or two of your psykers end up with the desired spell, how does that let you apply it to lots of units simultaneously?

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
The one thing that keeps getting pushed around her that should be considered is the viability of bringing a crap-ton of guardsmen is not only impractical in terms of money and time for most guard players but also if the dice are not in your favour those mass bodies get annihilated without doing anything at all.

@Martel you keep stating using more LOS terrain to help blob guard, but have you tried to hide 60+ models on a 6x4 board with a ton of terrain, HAH

If the dice gods don't like you march their asses up field and tie down a bike squad or grav cents for the rest of the game. Or take objectives with them. Or March them over to some wyverns to use as wrap. Just because a unit of guardsmen doesn't perform the way you expect it to doesn't make the game hopeless. If the whole army can't hit... well the dice gods are fickle. We've all been back alley, no-lubed by them before. Welcome to 40k.


MoO

....well I tried. Psykers are good. The fact that you play to statline instead of abilities means that you'll most likely keep on getting poor results. Let me sum up the situation in a little metaphor:

Me: "if you are going to take tanks, take a cheap unit of demolishers or dakka punishers"

You: "punishers and demolishers suck, executioners are where it's at" ( paraphrasing)

Now here's the rub.
Demolishers and punishers are to be used for anti (heavy) infantry which they excel at. When they hit it hurts like hell (unless necron decurion). They get even better with psykers (which you also refuse to use). When they dont work they serve as an excellent fire/assault magnet. Hell, I've seen dakka punishers used as AA, but that's another story.

Executioners kill themselves all the time and are stupidly expensive when kitted out.



Good luck man. I tried. At least 3 or 4 times. I'll do my best not to talk gak, but it's very difficult not to when you blame the games problems on one army, while you yourself refuse to gak or get off the pot.

Good day sir.

Martel732 wrote:
Why is anyone shocked that giving large numbers of models 4++ saves, rerolls to hit, full BS overwatch and ignore cover a decent list? It's not world beating, it's mid-tier. Which means it usually wins vs trash and usually loses to Eldar. Why is this so controversial?

Because you are forced to rely on four very expensive, very squishy and very finicky models that have a chance not to roll the power you need.

@Selym: The Pieplates are not the worst ones. The worst ones are the Typhons and the triple invisible Vindicators which drop 7" and 10" dinner plates respectively, and give no gaks about cover. Wyverns are good IF you are facing foot infantry. As soon as the enemy brings transports/vehicles they are useless, so you need at least one transport popping unit and HWS with Autocannons are not it. You will need at least one Exterminator squadron. Wyverns are also very squishy and thus need to be placed behind LOS blocking cover which is great until your club lacks it.
You also hit the nail on the head with the objective capturing bit. Moving a Guard army is a joke and getting close to most armies (Tau being exempt) is suicide. You lack the mobility to take objectives and those few units with the mobility will vanish very quickly once your opponent sees them.

As for those telling me not to let my opponent tailor their list, it is rather hard not too. My club operates mainly on a arrange and bring system and pick up games are relatively infrequent. Everyone knows that I play Guard. I may bring Marines or Inquisition as allies but I lack the stuff to make either main armies and even if I had the stuff, I play Guard. My opponents know this and know that I have limited funds and thus limited choices and so the can build accordingly.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why is anyone shocked that giving large numbers of models 4++ saves, rerolls to hit, full BS overwatch and ignore cover a decent list? It's not world beating, it's mid-tier. Which means it usually wins vs trash and usually loses to Eldar. Why is this so controversial?

Because you are forced to rely on four very expensive, very squishy and very finicky models that have a chance not to roll the power you need.

@Selym: The Pieplates are not the worst ones. The worst ones are the Typhons and the triple invisible Vindicators which drop 7" and 10" dinner plates respectively, and give no gaks about cover. Wyverns are good IF you are facing foot infantry. As soon as the enemy brings transports/vehicles they are useless, so you need at least one transport popping unit and HWS with Autocannons are not it. You will need at least one Exterminator squadron. Wyverns are also very squishy and thus need to be placed behind LOS blocking cover which is great until your club lacks it.
You also hit the nail on the head with the objective capturing bit. Moving a Guard army is a joke and getting close to most armies (Tau being exempt) is suicide. You lack the mobility to take objectives and those few units with the mobility will vanish very quickly once your opponent sees them.

As for those telling me not to let my opponent tailor their list, it is rather hard not too. My club operates mainly on a arrange and bring system and pick up games are relatively infrequent. Everyone knows that I play Guard. I may bring Marines or Inquisition as allies but I lack the stuff to make either main armies and even if I had the stuff, I play Guard. My opponents know this and know that I have limited funds and thus limited choices and so the can build accordingly.

Uhh, Exterminators are basically more-expensive autocannons on a Leman Russ chassis...

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
The one thing that keeps getting pushed around her that should be considered is the viability of bringing a crap-ton of guardsmen is not only impractical in terms of money and time for most guard players but also if the dice are not in your favour those mass bodies get annihilated without doing anything at all.

@Martel you keep stating using more LOS terrain to help blob guard, but have you tried to hide 60+ models on a 6x4 board with a ton of terrain, HAH

If the dice gods don't like you march their asses up field and tie down a bike squad or grav cents for the rest of the game. Or take objectives with them. Or March them over to some wyverns to use as wrap. Just because a unit of guardsmen doesn't perform the way you expect it to doesn't make the game hopeless. If the whole army can't hit... well the dice gods are fickle. We've all been back alley, no-lubed by them before. Welcome to 40k.

March up too.... How the hell are we supposed to get close? If you try to move closer with Guard your army literally evaporates.

MoO

....well I tried. Psykers are good. The fact that you play to statline instead of abilities means that you'll most likely keep on getting poor results. Let me sum.up the situation in a little metaphor:

Me: "if you are going to take tanks, take a cheap unit of demolishers or dakka punishers"

You: "punishers and demolishers such, executioners are where it's at" ( paraphrasing)

Now here's the rub.
Demolishers and punishers are to be used for anti (heavy) infantry which they excel at. When they hit it hurts like hell (unless necron decurion). They get even better with psykers (which you also refuse to use). When they dont work they serve as an excellent fire/assault magnet. Hell, I've seen dakka punishers used as AA, but that's another story.

Executioners kill themselves all the time and are stupidly expensive when kitted out.



Good luck man. I tried. At least 3 or 4 times. I'll do my best not to talk gak, but it's very difficult not to when you blame the games problems one one army, while you yourself refuse to gak or get off the pot.

Good day sir.

Ack, I meant Exterminators! They make great anti transport/light/medium armour/infantry platforms.
The Punisher is only good with Pask, so it is best to leave it at home and the Demolisher is really expensive. I find that the Thunderer is a far better choice as it is both faster and cheaper whilst the only downside is the loss of the Heavy Bolter, which you never use anyway.
Now, here is y rub with you. 1, you call Punishers good. Paskless Punishers are terrible and should never be considered, then tell me my tank choices are terrible. The second (2,) is that I do use Psykers but I dont use guard psykers. If I bring a psyker then it is either an Inquisitor or a Librarian in an allied detachment as these are both superior to the IG stock psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why is anyone shocked that giving large numbers of models 4++ saves, rerolls to hit, full BS overwatch and ignore cover a decent list? It's not world beating, it's mid-tier. Which means it usually wins vs trash and usually loses to Eldar. Why is this so controversial?

Because you are forced to rely on four very expensive, very squishy and very finicky models that have a chance not to roll the power you need.

@Selym: The Pieplates are not the worst ones. The worst ones are the Typhons and the triple invisible Vindicators which drop 7" and 10" dinner plates respectively, and give no gaks about cover. Wyverns are good IF you are facing foot infantry. As soon as the enemy brings transports/vehicles they are useless, so you need at least one transport popping unit and HWS with Autocannons are not it. You will need at least one Exterminator squadron. Wyverns are also very squishy and thus need to be placed behind LOS blocking cover which is great until your club lacks it.
You also hit the nail on the head with the objective capturing bit. Moving a Guard army is a joke and getting close to most armies (Tau being exempt) is suicide. You lack the mobility to take objectives and those few units with the mobility will vanish very quickly once your opponent sees them.

As for those telling me not to let my opponent tailor their list, it is rather hard not too. My club operates mainly on a arrange and bring system and pick up games are relatively infrequent. Everyone knows that I play Guard. I may bring Marines or Inquisition as allies but I lack the stuff to make either main armies and even if I had the stuff, I play Guard. My opponents know this and know that I have limited funds and thus limited choices and so the can build accordingly.

Uhh, Exterminators are basically more-expensive autocannons on a Leman Russ chassis...

That are twin linked and can actually take hits and have double the rate of fire. On the surface they look mediocre, but when used have proven (to me at least) deadly.

Dantes_Baals wrote:


If the dice gods don't like you march their asses up field and tie down a bike squad or grav cents for the rest of the game. Or take objectives with them. Or March them over to some wyverns to use as wrap. Just because a unit of guardsmen doesn't perform the way you expect it to doesn't make the game hopeless. If the whole army can't hit... well the dice gods are fickle. We've all been back alley, no-lubed by them before. Welcome to 40k..

Thanks for welcoming to 40k, as if I haven't been playing since 3rd edition as I had mentioned earlier. Regardless theory of moving massive units up the field works but not always in practice due to terrain set up, speed of opposing force etc. Regardless my scions have become my main army and I have had much more success.

This back and forth of IG being more blargh than BA and BA being more blargh than IG is kind of cyclical. As I stated before, it is my safe guess that if we had to pick one army that is terrible its Chaos. But most of the armies mentioned here definitely need help and those armies that are the worst culprits of the pain train and complaints need some balancing for fairness.

 master of ordinance wrote:
That are twin linked and can actually take hits and have double the rate of fire. On the surface they look mediocre, but when used have proven (to me at least) deadly.

...while also costing around twice as many points as an Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Squad that puts out more shots per turn.

An Exterminator is absolutely more durable, but is it really worth all those extra points while sacrificing raw firepower?

 Pouncey wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The four to six divination psykers we just discussed in the thread.

Given that they're not guaranteed to get that particular ability (I think), I seriously doubt they're going to be able to cover even half of their army with that spell.

Does it play out differently in reality?

Four LV1 Psykers rolling on the same table means a little over half your games you get it. Add more Psykers and Mastery Levels for taste.

I guess I'm not very familiar with psykers as my main army doesn't actually have any psykers whatsoever.

If one or two of your psykers end up with the desired spell, how does that let you apply it to lots of units simultaneously?

You apply the buffs to huge units. That's the trick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SwampRats45MK wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:


If the dice gods don't like you march their asses up field and tie down a bike squad or grav cents for the rest of the game. Or take objectives with them. Or March them over to some wyverns to use as wrap. Just because a unit of guardsmen doesn't perform the way you expect it to doesn't make the game hopeless. If the whole army can't hit... well the dice gods are fickle. We've all been back alley, no-lubed by them before. Welcome to 40k..

Thanks for welcoming to 40k, as if I haven't been playing since 3rd edition as I had mentioned earlier. Regardless theory of moving massive units up the field works but not always in practice due to terrain set up, speed of opposing force etc. Regardless my scions have become my main army and I have had much more success.

This back and forth of IG being more blargh than BA and BA being more blargh than IG is kind of cyclical. As I stated before, it is my safe guess that if we had to pick one army that is terrible its Chaos. But most of the armies mentioned here definitely need help and those armies that are the worst culprits of the pain train and complaints need some balancing for fairness.

CSM and BA have many of the exact same problems. Plague marines are better than anything that BA have in a lot of situations. However, the lack of grav is an issue for CSM. I think maybe the cyclopean cabal puts CSM ever so slightly above BA at this point.

"Because you are forced to rely on four very expensive, very squishy and very finicky models that have a chance not to roll the power you need."

Last time I checked, LoS is pretty damn good. I get it, you don't like the idea. But it's a hell of a lot better than rely on Russ hulls. And Primaris psykers aren't expensive. Russes are. Where are your army lists for these BA armies that you claim are whooping you? Earlier you thought BA could take librarian conclave. That doesn't give me confidence that you know anything about BA.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 SwampRats45MK wrote:
The one thing that keeps getting pushed around her that should be considered is the viability of bringing a crap-ton of guardsmen is not only impractical in terms of money and time for most guard players but also if the dice are not in your favour those mass bodies get annihilated without doing anything at all.

@Martel you keep stating using more LOS terrain to help blob guard, but have you tried to hide 60+ models on a 6x4 board with a ton of terrain, HAH

If the dice gods don't like you march their asses up field and tie down a bike squad or grav cents for the rest of the game. Or take objectives with them. Or March them over to some wyverns to use as wrap. Just because a unit of guardsmen doesn't perform the way you expect it to doesn't make the game hopeless. If the whole army can't hit... well the dice gods are fickle. We've all been back alley, no-lubed by them before. Welcome to 40k.

March up too.... How the hell are we supposed to get close? If you try to move closer with Guard your army literally evaporates.

MoO

....well I tried. Psykers are good. The fact that you play to statline instead of abilities means that you'll most likely keep on getting poor results. Let me sum.up the situation in a little metaphor:

Me: "if you are going to take tanks, take a cheap unit of demolishers or dakka punishers"

You: "punishers and demolishers such, executioners are where it's at" ( paraphrasing)

Now here's the rub.
Demolishers and punishers are to be used for anti (heavy) infantry which they excel at. When they hit it hurts like hell (unless necron decurion). They get even better with psykers (which you also refuse to use). When they dont work they serve as an excellent fire/assault magnet. Hell, I've seen dakka punishers used as AA, but that's another story.

Executioners kill themselves all the time and are stupidly expensive when kitted out.



Good luck man. I tried. At least 3 or 4 times. I'll do my best not to talk gak, but it's very difficult not to when you blame the games problems one one army, while you yourself refuse to gak or get off the pot.

Good day sir.

Ack, I meant Exterminators! They make great anti transport/light/medium armour/infantry platforms.
The Punisher is only good with Pask, so it is best to leave it at home and the Demolisher is really expensive. I find that the Thunderer is a far better choice as it is both faster and cheaper whilst the only downside is the loss of the Heavy Bolter, which you never use anyway.
Now, here is y rub with you. 1, you call Punishers good. Paskless Punishers are terrible and should never be considered, then tell me my tank choices are terrible. The second (2,) is that I do use Psykers but I dont use guard psykers. If I bring a psyker then it is either an Inquisitor or a Librarian in an allied detachment as these are both superior to the IG stock psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pouncey wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why is anyone shocked that giving large numbers of models 4++ saves, rerolls to hit, full BS overwatch and ignore cover a decent list? It's not world beating, it's mid-tier. Which means it usually wins vs trash and usually loses to Eldar. Why is this so controversial?

Because you are forced to rely on four very expensive, very squishy and very finicky models that have a chance not to roll the power you need.

@Selym: The Pieplates are not the worst ones. The worst ones are the Typhons and the triple invisible Vindicators which drop 7" and 10" dinner plates respectively, and give no gaks about cover. Wyverns are good IF you are facing foot infantry. As soon as the enemy brings transports/vehicles they are useless, so you need at least one transport popping unit and HWS with Autocannons are not it. You will need at least one Exterminator squadron. Wyverns are also very squishy and thus need to be placed behind LOS blocking cover which is great until your club lacks it.
You also hit the nail on the head with the objective capturing bit. Moving a Guard army is a joke and getting close to most armies (Tau being exempt) is suicide. You lack the mobility to take objectives and those few units with the mobility will vanish very quickly once your opponent sees them.

As for those telling me not to let my opponent tailor their list, it is rather hard not too. My club operates mainly on a arrange and bring system and pick up games are relatively infrequent. Everyone knows that I play Guard. I may bring Marines or Inquisition as allies but I lack the stuff to make either main armies and even if I had the stuff, I play Guard. My opponents know this and know that I have limited funds and thus limited choices and so the can build accordingly.

Uhh, Exterminators are basically more-expensive autocannons on a Leman Russ chassis...

That are twin linked and can actually take hits and have double the rate of fire. On the surface they look mediocre, but when used have proven (to me at least) deadly.

Fair enough. At least exterminators are cheap. If you just take the turret and a hull LC. I guess we're going to agree to disagree on the others, but that exterminator has such a low damage output (at BS 3) IMO the points would almost certainly be better spent elsewhere. That's my point. Take tanks that perform. Even at BS 3, 35 Str 5 shots are going to yield results. Especially with Prescience which every Primaris psyker will have. The demolishers are hit or miss ( again Prescience helps ). If they hit, a 10/2 ordinance large blast is going to do work against everyone but necrons. Of they are a miss, then they are eating fire that's not going into your transports taking objectives.



Yes moving a platoon up field you will take casualties. That's why you use cover saves. That's why you bring 3 or 4 Primaris psykers instead of a Libby because at least one will almost definitely get the 4++ power. That's why you put a commissar in the platoon. The scary SM stuff needs to be relatively close to put the hurt on you. A stubborn platoon, even after taking a dozen or so casualties is still a decent tarpit for a few turns. Especially with buffs. Getting into double tap range and then letting off a salvo of FRFSRF, is usually a good idea. Again, especially with buffs like Rending shots or Prescience. Es6if they can sit on an objective as well.