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"the top tier codexes just laugh at tanks to the point you might as well not have them"

Unless, of course, they were free tanks and all obj sec.

"Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst,"

Some people seem to think Cyclopean Cabal gives them a leg up on the other bottom feeders now. I don't know myself; your thoughts?

I don't think it is enough. Cyclopean cabal is funny against armies with big LoW (such as supremacy suits) but in most cases there are just not going to be units big and strong enough to warrant it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I don't think it is enough. Cyclopean cabal is funny against armies with big LoW (such as supremacy suits) but in most cases there are just not going to be units big and strong enough to warrant it.

It certainly won't get them far vs BA, LOL.

Exactly. Oh! I shot you with your own tactical squad! HORROR!

The sorcerers themselves are also very easy to kill - they can't even get a 2+ unless they gimp themselves with overpriced TDA.

I can see it being funny to grab a couple of wyverns and blowing up the IG's own guardsman blob with them, but it is honestly pretty niche and overall it an inefficient power. Better than what CSM already have, to be sure, but a situational gimmick is not alone taking them anywhere in the power scale.

The main thing truly keeping it as a gimmick is that they all have to pay for VotLW.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Exactly. Oh! I shot you with your own tactical squad! HORROR!

The sorcerers themselves are also very easy to kill - they can't even get a 2+ unless they gimp themselves with overpriced TDA.

I can see it being funny to grab a couple of wyverns and blowing up the IG's own guardsman blob with them, but it is honestly pretty niche and overall it an inefficient power. Better than what CSM already have, to be sure, but a situational gimmick is not alone taking them anywhere in the power scale.

I think you're understating it's value a bit. Saw it used to great affect on taking over a Stormsurge multiple times at ATC.

Again, the big scary things are ideal targets, but those are rarely readily available, nor do you always have a suitable target for whatever you get control of.

If you meet an army of Wraithknights and Scatterbikes, neither enemy unit is particularly susceptible to fire from the other.

Martel732 wrote:
"the top tier codexes just laugh at tanks to the point you might as well not have them"

Unless, of course, they were free tanks and all obj sec.

Sure, but that's how bad tanks are. They are so bad that, unless they are free, you are most likely better off leaving them at home. Rhinos aren't horrible since their so cheap, but the troops they tend to carry aren't really worth it for most armies.
Again, this is only against competitive lists. Eldar, Marines, Tau, Necrons tend to be able to strip HP very effectively, and IG suffer against those armies compared to BA or other low tier dexes.

However, armies like DE and Orks can't really strip HPs off quick enough to make the IG tanks useless. This allows IG to punch harder against the lower tier armies, so it makes an interesting place for them. They are strong against low tier codexes, feeling like they belong in upper mid against those armies, but against high tier armies, they feel awful and like they should belong in low tier. I think this is what is creating these problems and discussions here.

That, and some people seem to have different ideas of what is good based on their meta. RIP Mutilator thread

Martel732 wrote:

"Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst,"

Some people seem to think Cyclopean Cabal gives them a leg up on the other bottom feeders now. I don't know myself; your thoughts?

I haven't tried it out yet, though looking at it, it actually seems like it's better against the stronger armies.

Against Guard, I can't think of a unit I'd want to cast this on. This is true in DE, Orks, BA, and tbh, most of the weaker dexes. The ideal targets seem to be GMC and MC, and the weaker dexes don't have any of these...or at least any that are strong.

Against Nids I can see it being useful. Nid MCs have shortish range and can cause some wounds.

Against Tau, it seems really good. This is most likely the best army in the game to use this power against. They lack a deathstar to keep you away as well, although they can delete the casters if they have to.

Against Marines, it feels hit or miss. I can see some lists having this hurt them greatly, and other lists not caring. I think against lists that care, you'll find your casters quickly deleted however. Pop in, Grav shots until death. It's hard to protect them and have them contribute, as CSM really need to move forward to be effective.

Against Eldar, it feels mostly like a miss. Bikes shooting another bike squad is good, but it feels hard to get in range to me.

Against Necrons I see it being useless or close to useless.

Against Wolves it feels useless.

Against Daemons...I can't tell. Mediocre?


All in all, its good but not great. If invisibility isn't nerfed in your group, it's a lot stronger but still struggles against many of the top dexes who have melee deathstars, which CSM lack. You'll drag the melee out but won't win, or will fail to pin down the enemy death star. It doesn't change why CSM are bad though...they don't hit hard enough on any front. Their guns are weak or overcosted, and their melee units are pretty bad compared to many other armies. Tough wise they are average to good, and this certainly raises that with biomancy and telepathy, but damage wise it doesn't do enough.
There needs to be a formation that grants all marines +1 attack, +1 Strength, and fleet for Khorne or something. That would help CSM since at least they'd be brutal in melee. As it stands, some armies have deathstars that can walk across a CSM army by itself.

Akiasura wrote:
RIP Mutilator thread

Ugh, that thread...

All I'll say about that is that if I could take assault terminators in squads 2 I would. And then have 6 squads of them deep strike.

Akiasura wrote:
I can't believe this was essentially arguing about 2nd worst. Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst, and then argues about IG or BA.

I honestly think Chaos Marine players just turned up in larger numbers to take this poll than Ork players.

CSM they have power armor, BS4, FMCs, and competent Psykers, that Orks would kill for.

 adamsouza wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I can't believe this was essentially arguing about 2nd worst. Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst, and then argues about IG or BA.

I honestly think Chaos Marine players just turned up in larger numbers to take this poll than Ork players.

CSM they have power armor, BS4, FMCs, and competent Psykers, that Orks would kill for.

And they lose the game if hit with a few ion accelerators. Power armor is as much a curse as a boon at this point.

To be fair, almost anything in the game dies to Ion Accelerators. Tau need toning down, heavily.

 adamsouza wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I can't believe this was essentially arguing about 2nd worst. Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst, and then argues about IG or BA.

I honestly think Chaos Marine players just turned up in larger numbers to take this poll than Ork players.

CSM they have power armor, BS4, FMCs, and competent Psykers, that Orks would kill for.

I'm not going to claim that Orks are in a better position. I will say that Power armor is as much a weakness as it is a strength with grav and str D on the table, but this only effects the stronger dexes not the weaker ones.
Our FMCs outside of special characters are pretty garbage. They might not be the worst in the game, but I'm sure its close. Not enough damage at range, very expensive, and not that tough compared to others. Keep in mind that the Flyrant is good because it pumps out decent ranged damage, the DP can't really claim the same.

CSM does have good psykers. Can't deny that.

In return, Orks get a much better LoW. Their standard troop is superior to anything I can field as a CSM player. Their bikers are better than what I can field. Their formations are better than anything I can field. They are tougher against most guns than I am as well, point for point.

Orks have some weaknesses. I think their biggest is the randomness of their guns, low shots per model, and lack of twin linked. Really, FnP and TL should be the core of the Ork Codex. It represents how tough they are and how much they love their dakka, while helping them as a dex. If shootas were Assault 3 TL, and Choppas +1 Str, I think they'd have a much stronger core.
Flash gitz should be AP 2-4 randomly only (1-2 =Ap 2, 3-4 =Ap 3, etc etc). Give them an extra bullet and twin linked.
Tbh, I'd give all the Ork guns +1 shot and TL. They'd become a horde of bullets army, but nothing is very accurate. Charging them becomes dangerous due to the sheer wave of firepower they put out, but they still need luck to win. Keep their points roughly the same, or drop their points and remove the TL.

Anyway that's off topic.

EDIT, did the math, with TL they become about as accurate as guardsmen. Let them re-roll ones and get +1 shot.

 master of ordinance wrote:
To be fair, almost anything in the game dies to Ion Accelerators. Tau need toning down, heavily.

Orks and your guardsmen give up far fewer points when hit, though.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not my ranking.

And it matters a lot that the mechanicus codices are not strictly superior to each. Ie, there's a reason to run one of them and ally in the others. There's no reason at all to ever touch BA, either as an ally or as a main force.

By that reasoning there's no reason to play anything that isn't Eldar... ah forget it, why do I even bother. I'm gonna go have fun with the game instead of... whatever the hell this is.

Maybe people playing with points expensive models want to do more with them than just pull them off the table 78% of the game. Because short of fast AV/ MSU spam that's exactly the way BA play. Got tabled for the first time ever when some asshat brought Ad Mech war convocation to a casual game. I imagine playing BA in a competitive meta feels a lot like that and it's lame as gak.

Experiment 626, you have no clue how situational frag nought are. A few weeks ago I say one absolutely delete a chaos sorcerers retinue of chosen. Last night I played my nids vs BS with 2 fragnoughts. The first one landed properly, killed a warrior and 7 gaunts and was immediately tarpitted for the rest of the game. The other rolled a 11" scatter for the pods and was dropped in one round of shooting by an Exocrine and another unit of warriors with deathspitters. Didn't do anything but look scary.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
To be fair, almost anything in the game dies to Ion Accelerators. Tau need toning down, heavily.

Orks and your guardsmen give up far fewer points when hit, though.

True, however they give up more points against strength 5 Ap 5 weapons, and strength 7 Ap 4 weapons, so it kind of balances out. You could claim, with these units in cover, that it may not be the case but this is Tau we are talking about.

 chalkobob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
To be fair, almost anything in the game dies to Ion Accelerators. Tau need toning down, heavily.

Orks and your guardsmen give up far fewer points when hit, though.

True, however they give up more points against strength 5 Ap 5 weapons, and strength 7 Ap 4 weapons, so it kind of balances out. You could claim, with these units in cover, that it may not be the case but this is Tau we are talking about.

Or even S4 AP5 weapons.

 adamsouza wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I can't believe this was essentially arguing about 2nd worst. Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst, and then argues about IG or BA.

I honestly think Chaos Marine players just turned up in larger numbers to take this poll than Ork players.

CSM they have power armor, BS4, FMCs, and competent Psykers, that Orks would kill for.

Ditto. It seems like CSM players don't realize just how bad other books have it. They have an old book, which I'm sure they're tired of playing, but it can still be made to work. They have no idea what foul things an Ork player would do to get access to an ML 3 weird boy with HALF the discipline CSM sorcs do. They have no idea the foul things a BA player would do to have a playable shooting OR CC list. Or even.a formation with moving 3 up cover saves for our dreads(as bad as they are). As it is now, if they aren't maelstrom missions, BA are best left in a display case.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I can't believe this was essentially arguing about 2nd worst. Everyone seems to give CSM the nod as worst, and then argues about IG or BA.

I honestly think Chaos Marine players just turned up in larger numbers to take this poll than Ork players.

CSM they have power armor, BS4, FMCs, and competent Psykers, that Orks would kill for.

Ditto. It seems like CSM players don't realize just how bad other books have it.

I actually own Orks and CSM, so I'm aware of how bad Orks have it. In another thread, I was suggesting that Orks are a terrible dark horse choice since they can't contribute in a competitive game to any meaningful level. However, that doesn't mean that Orks have it worse than CSM. BA certainly don't, I think they are better than Orks or CSM.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

They have an old book, which I'm sure they're tired of playing, but it can still be made to work.

I would love to see a list that works that isn't "Run daemons with some CSM to technically win this argument" because that is what happens everytime someone suggests CSM can work.
Remember, we have had a huge thread where people thought mutilators were good. Mutilators! That's how bad the CSM dex is.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

They have no idea what foul things an Ork player would do to get access to an ML 3 weird boy with HALF the discipline CSM sorcs do.

This is the one strength we have over the other bad dexes. Our psykers are pretty good. Not SM or Eldar good, but certainly the top of the weaker armies. It is, however, our only strength.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

They have no idea the foul things a BA player would do to have a playable shooting OR CC list.

As a CSM player, I would do foul things for a viable shooting or CC list. We currently don't have any such list.
Keep in mind, in an era where people are running grav, D weapons, Tau pie plats, and Scatbikes, CSM are still running plasma guns. We don't even have pods, and struggle with removing armor, of all things.
Our CC options are also terrible. Possessed are garbage tier, our landraider is the worst option available, we lack a way to deliver Khorne troops. What CC list for chaos is playable? We certainly aren't building a deathstar with our options.

The only good options in the CSM list are the following;
Sorcerors (Not really shooty or CC, buffy and usually makes units tougher with some direct damage available).
Cultists (Cheap objective holder).
Plague Marines (Tough, not offensively powerful at all, extremely slow).
Nurgle Bikers (Tough, not offensively powerful at all).
Heldrake (It's something? Much weaker than before, and it was the only thing propping up the dex for a while).

And...that's it. All the other options are terrible for various reasons. We certainly can't run a playable shooty or CC list, unless by playable you mean "can put models on the table", in which case everyone qualifies.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Or even.a formation with moving 3 up cover saves for our dreads(as bad as they are). As it is now, if they aren't maelstrom missions, BA are best left in a display case.

Dreads for CSM are a laughing stock, I'd never run them. Any of the competitive armies can remove a few models with HP, and CSM lacks the ability to spam meaningful HP for a decent cost to toughness/firepower ratio. Few armies can, to be fair (IG can't, its why they are so terrible right now).

I can't tell you the last time I ran CSM against a remotely competitive army and didn't get tabled. Even against Orks and other lower tier armies, it feels like an uphill battle. IG can run tanks against us effectively since we can't pop armor at range without spamming horrible options like lascannons. Without divination, those are awful for the points.

Akia, looks like you copypasted the Nurgle biker comment by mistake. They are bad but at least not slow!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Akia, looks like you copypasted the Nurgle biker comment by mistake. They are bad but at least not slow!

Whoops, meant to remove the slow. They are similar to the plague marines in that they are not bad at tanking hits (It's hard to imagine a better unit for the points against Scat bikes that doesn't involve a formation) but are still extremely weak in their offense. It takes them too long to kill a MC or GMC.

CSM feels like gak because people naturally compare it the Adeptus Astartes.

The common complaints of CSM almost always reflect how much better that the Astartes have it.

No ATSKNF
No Drop Pods
No Grav
No Free Vehicles
No whatever new thing Adeptus Astartes got in their recent codex, but CSM don't have, even though they used to be Adeptus Astartes.

You can pretty much copy and paste every CSM complaint, and replace CSM with Ork as well

ANYTHING orks do even competently is mostly done by taking large numbers of something to accomplsh it.

Orks take a mob of 10 guys in a vehicle so that 1 of them can survive long enough to use a powerfist, and that's considered a typical strategy.

The CSM book also has some other issues aside from just not getting the Loyalist toys. Fundamentally the army is still built to function like a 5E or even a 4E army in many respects. Its AT weapons still are largely based around trying to get penetrating hits rather than stripping HP's. Its big new gribblies were made vehicles rather than MC's. Its infantry still generally are built around close combat and a reliance on consolidating into new combats or being able to pile out of a Rhino directly into CC. The army's Psychic capabilities are relatively mild outside of bolt-on's like Belakor or allies. There's also issues with theme and function, such as the weird split GW introduced between Cult and Dedicated units (e.g. the difference between a unit of basic CSM's with a Mark of Nurgle vs Plague Marines) and questions of why Cult units don't exist outside of Tac-equivalents.

They feel like Gak largely because they are Gak, even not comparing them to Loyalist marines. They're an army left behind two or even three editions in the past in terms of functionality.

Look at the CSM Possessed models and rules.

Now look at Gal Vorbak models and rules.

Look back at Possessed.

Weep.

Realise Gal Vorbak are still worse than Wulfen.

Weep more.

There is a reason I play 30k nowadays.

I've not played 40K for some time now and I've deliberately not read the thread because I'm going to hazard a bet that my Chaos Space Marines are still at the bottom.

Now I'm going to go back and see what others have said who are more current and see if I;m right


Update: Still got it

 adamsouza wrote:
CSM feels like gak because people naturally compare it the Adeptus Astartes.

The common complaints of CSM almost always reflect how much better that the Astartes have it.

I didn't mention SM once during my going over why the CSM army is bad. The CSM army is bad because they can't kill anything and, for the most part, are extremely slow. They also suffer against AV spam since they lack ways to destroy tanks in number.

 adamsouza wrote:

No ATSKNF
No Drop Pods
No Grav
No Free Vehicles
No whatever new thing Adeptus Astartes got in their recent codex, but CSM don't have, even though they used to be Adeptus Astartes.

Some of these are strange, from a fluff perspective (Why no Legion Tactics, Drop pods, or Grav weapons? If anything, Chaos should have more grav weapons, or daemon weapons).
But these aren't the weaknesses I listed for the most part. I've never seen a CSM player argue for free tanks, for example.

 adamsouza wrote:

You can pretty much copy and paste every CSM complaint, and replace CSM with Ork as well

Not true. Orks have a solid LoW can do armor spam to an extent. Certain armies have issues dealing with the amount of wounds on the table, although many of the top tier armies don't. Orks also have the green tide which is semi-viable, Chaos has nothing that doesn't involve allying in a stronger dex and spamming psykers.

 adamsouza wrote:

ANYTHING orks do even competently is mostly done by taking large numbers of something to accomplsh it.

Yes.
This is a theme of horde armies. Skaven in fantasy took a large amount of troops to accomplish anything, yet were quite strong during their entire career.
It doesn't make the list weak by itself.

 adamsouza wrote:

Orks take a mob of 10 guys in a vehicle so that 1 of them can survive long enough to use a powerfist, and that's considered a typical strategy.

CSM take 10 guys in a vehicle to pop off two plasma shots and die. At least the orks are cheaper and can get stuck in against a lot of units. Our basic troop doesn't even get taken, you plop cultists down and try to hide the shame.

 chalkobob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
To be fair, almost anything in the game dies to Ion Accelerators. Tau need toning down, heavily.

Orks and your guardsmen give up far fewer points when hit, though.

True, however they give up more points against strength 5 Ap 5 weapons, and strength 7 Ap 4 weapons, so it kind of balances out. You could claim, with these units in cover, that it may not be the case but this is Tau we are talking about.

With more unit in cover, at least you strain their marker lights more. As for S4 AP 5 weapons, bolters are trash and are minimized in most non-gladius lists.

"Try orks against CSM if you want. You'll find that Orks beat CSM in melee and equal them at ranged. If Orks decide to spam transports/BW/LoW, there isn't much the CSM player can do to stop it. Meanwhile, the CSM has little in response except spam psykers and hope for the best . We don't deal enough wounds to counter Orks, we don't have effective AV weapons on good platforms to counter transports, and we don't have the melee ability to punch through the hordes on a point to point level. "

This is why Orks are better than BA as well. At least, head to head. Against the field, I still think the Orks ability to soak wounds is more valuable than whatever it is people think BA can actually do.

How can Orks be the sconed worst army. Clearly they've never seen a fully mechanize green tide assault you in turn 2. (PS. This is the fan boy inside of me talking.)

Not true. Orks have a solid LoW can do armor spam to an extent. Certain armies have issues dealing with the amount of wounds on the table, although many of the top tier armies don't. Orks also have the green tide which is semi-viable, Chaos has nothing that doesn't involve allying in a stronger dex and spamming psykers.

1: What solid LoW? Ghaz? he sucks balls and is only worth his points when you invest 1100pts to give him a 2++. Or are you talking about a Stompa? Which I believe is something like 200-250pts over priced for what little it does. Its a super heavy and is absurdly expensive (770pts).

2: Orks have terrible armor. The only vehicle we have that has armor that can be spammed is the BW which is 110pts naked. When you give it dakka its closer to 165pts and is only effective at Range 24 or less. It is an AV 14/12/10 Open topped vehicle that loses its benefit of good front armor because it completely lacks range. We have trukkz? but they have almost zero dakka and tend to explode frequently, we have 4 different flyers, all of them are trash though So what vehicle spam are you talking about? Yeah CSM has a problem with anti-tank but so do Orks. our most effective anti-tank is Lootas, expensive, no armor, fragile and ohh yeah D3 shots so you don't even know if your going to have enough dakka to do anything.

3: Green tide is a gimmick list which is easily beatable using almost any list. If you attack it from two sides the tide spends the rest of the game consolidating into two separate combats and the only scary part about it is the nob with Pks in it. a NEKKID Green tide costs around 650pts, that has ZERO Pks in it. An Equipped Green tide costs around 1k-1.2k Not much wiggle room left over for other options that can do stuff.