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SemperMortis wrote:

Not true. Orks have a solid LoW can do armor spam to an extent. Certain armies have issues dealing with the amount of wounds on the table, although many of the top tier armies don't. Orks also have the green tide which is semi-viable, Chaos has nothing that doesn't involve allying in a stronger dex and spamming psykers.

1: What solid LoW? Ghaz? he sucks balls and is only worth his points when you invest 1100pts to give him a 2++. Or are you talking about a Stompa? Which I believe is something like 200-250pts over priced for what little it does. Its a super heavy and is absurdly expensive (770pts).

Specifically, the custom stompa. I should have made it clear.
It's way above anything the CSM get. Show me a CSM choice that's better than the Custom Stompa.

SemperMortis wrote:

2: Orks have terrible armor. The only vehicle we have that has armor that can be spammed is the BW which is 110pts naked.

Not true. Trukks are very cheap and can be counted as spam, much in the same way that Rhinos can be. Your dreads are better than ours as well.

SemperMortis wrote:

When you give it dakka its closer to 165pts and is only effective at Range 24 or less. It is an AV 14/12/10 Open topped vehicle that loses its benefit of good front armor because it completely lacks range.

You need to compare this to the CSM, which you fail to do, instead of making vacuum statements.
Compare the BW to the Landraider. Naked, I can fit two of them for the cost of one Raider. If you buy the bells and whistles and troops for both, it's pretty close to 2 BW to 1 Landraider. It's a much better delivery system being cheaper, and can fire more guns from the troops. It's significantly better than what CSM have and, best of all, can be spammed since it's cheapish if it's naked with a solid front AV. You can make a wall of armor that can be podded, but is difficult to flank.

It still falls flat against the top codexes of course, but it's still better than anything the CSM have access to. Unless you are suggesting land raiders are better than BW?

SemperMortis wrote:

We have trukkz? but they have almost zero dakka and tend to explode frequently, we have 4 different flyers, all of them are trash though So what vehicle spam are you talking about?

The spam is BW, Dreads, Flyers, and trukks. It's doable for orks to put a lot of HP on the table that is meaningful and must be dealt with, while CSM can't say the same. No one is afraid of rhinos, just like trukks, but no one is afraid of 2 PGs in the rhino either. It's too little damage for a nearly 200 point package. A trukk with boys has a PC wielding Nob in there that can charge, tying a squad up, and deliver a decent amount of high strength attacks. Many squads in this game are god awful at CC and more expensive than a small squad of orks.
Orks big problem with Trukk units is they fail against the competitive armies that have split fire, MSU, or have CC units that laugh at Orks. CSM also fail against those units for the same reasons. But, at least Trukks can threaten an IG line, or BA line. A CSM squad, at best, pops out and double taps plasma and eats a charge or rapid fire. It's much less effective.

Again, no HP spam list will work well against the top tier dexes. But you'll find a lot of the lower tier dexes that still use lascannon equivalents struggle to get through all that meat. Orks have the option to use that strategy, CSM don't. They don't have any unit outside of DP that says "DEAL WITH ME", and DP are very fragile for the points.

SemperMortis wrote:

Yeah CSM has a problem with anti-tank but so do Orks. our most effective anti-tank is Lootas, expensive, no armor, fragile and ohh yeah D3 shots so you don't even know if your going to have enough dakka to do anything.

Lootas are, again, much better than Havoks. They are much better than oblits against most opponents as well.
Orks have, arguably, about the same anti-tank as CSM do. You guys use claws mostly, on bikes or other fast things (I see lootas targetting MCs more often tbh, or popping transports), and we use meltas on various platforms. Both of these aren't very effective, since you can't expect to target back line tanks until turn 3. The melta's aren't that...great I would say, compared to the claws, but its close.

But lootas are better long range firepower than anything we get. Please, point to the unit CSM get that are better.

SemperMortis wrote:

3: Green tide is a gimmick list which is easily beatable using almost any list. If you attack it from two sides the tide spends the rest of the game consolidating into two separate combats and the only scary part about it is the nob with Pks in it. a NEKKID Green tide costs around 650pts, that has ZERO Pks in it. An Equipped Green tide costs around 1k-1.2k Not much wiggle room left over for other options that can do stuff.

And what do CSM have that's better? A CSM list will struggle against the Tide, it doesn't have enough offensive firepower to get through all that meat.


Quite frankly, throughout the entire discussion, you failed to address the main point. No one is arguing that orks are bad
You are arguing that they are worse than CSM. Which you have failed to do, in every point you bring up.

Please point out how the CSM have better AV spam, Anti-tank, Formations, something equivalent to the custom stompa, better melee, better shooting, absorbing shots, speed, etc etc. Because, from someone who owns both, it seems they are either equal or CSM are worse off in every category.

Specifically, the custom stompa. I should have made it clear.
It's way above anything the CSM get. Show me a CSM choice that's better than the Custom Stompa.

This is forgeworld, not Codex Orks. Its also not that good, it is more of a surprise option at best.

Not true. Trukks are very cheap and can be counted as spam, much in the same way that Rhinos can be. Your dreads are better than ours as well.

So because we can spam a cheap transport, just like SM and CSM players we are better then CSM? Trukkz are AV10 and die to bolter fire, and have a 1/6 chance to explode to non AP1-2 weapons. Against AP1 its a 50/50 chance to explode, and with Orks, when a vehicle explodes it usually kills half the unit inside.

Our dreads are better?

Deff Dread is 80 points and a Hellbrute is 100. Hellbrute has a Multi Melta compared to the Deff Dreads 2 big shootas. Hellbrute has BS4 to the Deff Dreadz BS2, Hellbrute is S6 to Deff Dreadz S5 (not as important except when weapons are destroyed), Hellbrute has better initiative and 1 more attack in CC then the Deff Dread. So you get all that for 20pts. I would say they are about the same, garbage.

Unless your comparing Hellbrutes to Killa Kanz, 50pt walkers with leadership issues.

The spam is BW, Dreads, Flyers, and trukks. It's doable for orks to put a lot of HP on the table that is meaningful and must be dealt with, while CSM can't say the same. No one is afraid of rhinos, just like trukks, but no one is afraid of 2 PGs in the rhino either. It's too little damage for a nearly 200 point package. A trukk with boys has a PC wielding Nob in there that can charge, tying a squad up, and deliver a decent amount of high strength attacks. Many squads in this game are god awful at CC and more expensive than a small squad of orks.

BWs are expensive OT Transports that lack guns for 110pts. Yes they are roughly 1/2 the cost of a landraider, but the raider is more survivable and comes standard with 2 TL lascannons and a TL heavy bolter, not great but still not bad. When a BW transport is upgraded it usually costs around 165pts (20pts for rokkitz/Big Shootas, 30pts for killkannon and 5 for Ram) Even with all that dakka it is still not nearly as good as the Land Raider, so again I would say its close enough to a draw not to matter.

Dreads? ALL Ork walkers are trash, Killa Kanz, Deff Dreadz, Mork/Gork and Stompa, utter trash.

Flyers? Expensive AV10/10/10 flyers which all lack Dakka. The best of the lot is generally considered to be the Dakkajet which puts out piss poor dakka compared to a lot of other options. Especially when you factor in that this takes up a FA slot that is needed for good units like Biker boyz.

Trukkz are just 35pt death traps half the time.

A Trukk with boyz has a PK nob in it, true, but a Rhino with CSM in it has a Sergeant with a PF as well, he might not have as many attacks but its the same principle, furthermore hes wearing 3+ armor against my T-Shirt. So again, I would say its about the same.

Lootas are, again, much better than Havoks. They are much better than oblits against most opponents as well.
Orks have, arguably, about the same anti-tank as CSM do. You guys use claws mostly, on bikes or other fast things (I see lootas targetting MCs more often tbh, or popping transports), and we use meltas on various platforms. Both of these aren't very effective, since you can't expect to target back line tanks until turn 3. The melta's aren't that...great I would say, compared to the claws, but its close.

But lootas are better long range firepower than anything we get. Please, point to the unit CSM get that are better.

A loota is a 14pt model with a S7 AP4 48range D3 heavy weapon. A Havoc is a 28pt model with a Range 48 S8 AP3 missile launcher. That Havoc has 3+ armor and most importantly LD9. Those lootas have a 6+ save and LD7.

In other words when someone looks in the general direction of my lootas they die, test for LD and then run off the table. Your Havocs might be a lot more expensive but at least they have the chance of sustaining casualties and sticking in the fight.

Oblits? basically centurions without the good stuff. I won't argue this one nearly as much except to say that getting to choose a random weapon every turn would be beneficial frequently. On the other hand they are WAY to expensive.

Lootas biggest problem is that with D3 shots they tend to suck and with LD7 they run away a lot. On average your rolling 2 shots, with 10 lootas thats 20 shots and 6-7 hits. At S7 thats not bad, but compared to a lot of other units that isn't that great.

And what do CSM have that's better? A CSM list will struggle against the Tide, it doesn't have enough offensive firepower to get through all that meat.

I literally told you how to beat a green tide with almost any list. tactical marines can do it with 2 squads. Attack from different sides of the tide and the ork player spends the next 2-3 turns consolidating into CC. Yeah, you won't kill the tide but you just tied up the majority of my forces for 2-3 turns without costing yourself to much.

Quite frankly, throughout the entire discussion, you failed to address the main point. No one is arguing that orks are bad
You are arguing that they are worse than CSM. Which you have failed to do, in every point you bring up.

I am sorry you feel that way, I have pointed out how I think Orks are worse off then CSM but if not please look up, they are about the same but I think that CSM has better options overall.

Please point out how the CSM have better AV spam, Anti-tank, Formations, something equivalent to the custom stompa, better melee, better shooting, absorbing shots, speed, etc etc. Because, from someone who owns both, it seems they are either equal or CSM are worse off in every category.

Rhino's are about the same as trukkz, Preds make BWs looks silly in terms of dakka, in terms of Anti-Tank, you have melta weapons something I really don't have, my most reliable way of killing AV13-14 is with Power Klaws.

Formations? none of the Ork Formations are worth a damn, The supplement has some gimmicks but they are all gimpy at best. Our Decurion costs around 1,100pts minimum to make a usable deathstar.

In regards to equivalent to a Custom Stompa? Well when you equip it with guns and shields it costs about as much as a regular Stompa ( a bit less) and your in the same territory as a Warhound titan so.....there you go, take a Chaos Warhound titan. not to hard

Better Melee? Well pretty much any unit you have that has an invul save or At initiative AP2 something we lack almost completely except FW.

Better at Dakka? Depends on what your comparing, overall I would say CSM have a lot better dakka then Orks.

Absorbing Dakka? Orks don't absorb dakka, they die in droves, so they absorb it in the sense that they lose a ton of models.

Like I said they are WICKED Close, but I would say Orks are worse by a little bit.

Sorry, but Trukks dying to Bolters is a very gross exaggeration. It takes 27 BS4 shots minimum to HP out a Trukk. Anything above the Bolter is inflicting almost the same damage to a Rhino anyway.

SemperMortis wrote:

Specifically, the custom stompa. I should have made it clear.
It's way above anything the CSM get. Show me a CSM choice that's better than the Custom Stompa.

This is forgeworld, not Codex Orks. Its also not that good, it is more of a surprise option at best.

Please point out the Chaos option that is superior. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you can't.
The custom stompa isn't great against top tier opponents who pop HP like it's nothing, but it's certainly better than anything Chaos has.

SemperMortis wrote:

Not true. Trukks are very cheap and can be counted as spam, much in the same way that Rhinos can be. Your dreads are better than ours as well.

So because we can spam a cheap transport, just like SM and CSM players we are better then CSM? Trukkz are AV10 and die to bolter fire, and have a 1/6 chance to explode to non AP1-2 weapons. Against AP1 its a 50/50 chance to explode, and with Orks, when a vehicle explodes it usually kills half the unit inside.

Yes spamming cheap transports make you better at AV spam. I know, crazy concept that spamming something makes you better at spamming it. And trukk are superior to rhinos due to their delivery system and payload.
Trukkz take over a squad rapid firing to destroy it. If they are within rapid fire range, you can unload the boyz and clean up anyway. Trukkz also carry a superior payload to the terrible Rhino w/2PG. Notice that SM players don't take rhinos unless they are free, they'd rather pod or not take the unit at all.

You still didn't mention how the Rhino is superior.

SemperMortis wrote:

Our dreads are better?

Deff Dread is 80 points and a Hellbrute is 100. Hellbrute has a Multi Melta compared to the Deff Dreads 2 big shootas. Hellbrute has BS4 to the Deff Dreadz BS2, Hellbrute is S6 to Deff Dreadz S5 (not as important except when weapons are destroyed), Hellbrute has better initiative and 1 more attack in CC then the Deff Dread. So you get all that for 20pts. I would say they are about the same, garbage.

You neglected the best part of your dreads and the worst of ours to make your point.
Ork dreads get access to the KFF, which make them tough to destroy (Basically adds 1 extra HP to every dread).
Chaos dreads get the crazed special rule which makes them very unreliable.
So if they equal before, this pushes it towards the orks I would say.

SemperMortis wrote:

Unless your comparing Hellbrutes to Killa Kanz, 50pt walkers with leadership issues.

If you wanted to spam, I'd lead towards more killa kanz since it's easy to get a lot of them with some trukk and BW back up. 50pt walkers are dirt cheap, that's about the cost of a wulfen with equipment. Throw the KFF in there and it takes some firepower to bring them down. Killa kanz also get superior range options. Honestly, the Kanz are better than the dreads, I'm surprised you're hinting otherwise.
Obviously grav or D weapons destroy them, but we are talking about weaker dexes.
So yeah, they would be the same in your original analysis, but you forget your biggest strength and our biggest weakness. Have to give this to the orks.

SemperMortis wrote:

The spam is BW, Dreads, Flyers, and trukks. It's doable for orks to put a lot of HP on the table that is meaningful and must be dealt with, while CSM can't say the same. No one is afraid of rhinos, just like trukks, but no one is afraid of 2 PGs in the rhino either. It's too little damage for a nearly 200 point package. A trukk with boys has a PC wielding Nob in there that can charge, tying a squad up, and deliver a decent amount of high strength attacks. Many squads in this game are god awful at CC and more expensive than a small squad of orks.

BWs are expensive OT Transports that lack guns for 110pts. Yes they are roughly 1/2 the cost of a landraider, but the raider is more survivable and comes standard with 2 TL lascannons and a TL heavy bolter, not great but still not bad.

Hold on there. Are you claiming 2 TL lascannons for ~250 points is not bad?
That's a massive exaggeration. A landraider has been terrible for a decade now, and we both know it. Not only that, but CSM get the worst landraider option. At least BW see some play.

SemperMortis wrote:

When a BW transport is upgraded it usually costs around 165pts (20pts for rokkitz/Big Shootas, 30pts for killkannon and 5 for Ram) Even with all that dakka it is still not nearly as good as the Land Raider, so again I would say its close enough to a draw not to matter.

It pumps out more firepower than the landraider if you include the troops firing, all while costing nearly half the price. Orks have cheaper payloads as well compared to CSM for the most part. And they get access to the KFF, so it's actually tougher from the front.
If you think the BW is the same as the worst transport in the game, I'm not sure what to tell you. The LR is hot garbage for chaos. It can be safely ignored until it delivers its payload, and chaos doesn't have many scary payloads outside of zerkers with a leader.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dreads? ALL Ork walkers are trash, Killa Kanz, Deff Dreadz, Mork/Gork and Stompa, utter trash.

Still better than the brute. Remember, this is about comparisons, not blanket statements where you ignore certain synergies that exist in your army because it helps your argument.

SemperMortis wrote:

Flyers? Expensive AV10/10/10 flyers which all lack Dakka. The best of the lot is generally considered to be the Dakkajet which puts out piss poor dakka compared to a lot of other options. Especially when you factor in that this takes up a FA slot that is needed for good units like Biker boyz.

What are you talking about? The bombers have amazing dakka. The dakka jet can put out 9-12 Str 6 shots. The bomber has a Str 7 Ap 2 armorbane large blast that can target invisible troops. If anything the biggest problem with the flyers is they take up a FA slot and don't help out orks against armor. They are weaker than the heldrake, true, but better against flyers. The bomber is nasty.

SemperMortis wrote:

Trukkz are just 35pt death traps half the time.

A Trukk with boyz has a PK nob in it, true, but a Rhino with CSM in it has a Sergeant with a PF as well, he might not have as many attacks but its the same principle, furthermore hes wearing 3+ armor against my T-Shirt. So again, I would say its about the same.

Sure, if you want to ignore things like say....Point costs? The chaos marine squad is going to cost a lot more than the orks if it's taking 2 PG, Rhino, and leader with fist compared to a bunch of sluggas bringing one PK.
So roughly the same but Orks get a discount. Seems that orks are better.

SemperMortis wrote:

Lootas are, again, much better than Havoks. They are much better than oblits against most opponents as well.
Orks have, arguably, about the same anti-tank as CSM do. You guys use claws mostly, on bikes or other fast things (I see lootas targetting MCs more often tbh, or popping transports), and we use meltas on various platforms. Both of these aren't very effective, since you can't expect to target back line tanks until turn 3. The melta's aren't that...great I would say, compared to the claws, but its close.

But lootas are better long range firepower than anything we get. Please, point to the unit CSM get that are better.

A loota is a 14pt model with a S7 AP4 48range D3 heavy weapon. A Havoc is a 28pt model with a Range 48 S8 AP3 missile launcher. That Havoc has 3+ armor and most importantly LD9. Those lootas have a 6+ save and LD7.

So, for the same cost of a havoc, a loota gets 2d3 S 7 shots? So for one Str 8 Ap 3 shot, you get on average 4 Str 7 shots?
Plus, lootas tend to pick a spot in cover and hide in the back. Weapons with that kind of range, outside of scat lasers, tend to ignore armor anyway, and we are both relying on cover saves.
Lootas are better than Havoks. If they were costed the same, I'd give it slightly to Havoks but it would be close. They aren't of course.

SemperMortis wrote:

In other words when someone looks in the general direction of my lootas they die, test for LD and then run off the table. Your Havocs might be a lot more expensive but at least they have the chance of sustaining casualties and sticking in the fight.

A lot more expensive? It's double the points for less shots. It takes 4 Havoks to pop most Av 11 transports, sometimes 5. It takes 3-4 lootas to do the same, and you've spent a fraction of the points!

SemperMortis wrote:

Oblits? basically centurions without the good stuff. I won't argue this one nearly as much except to say that getting to choose a random weapon every turn would be beneficial frequently. On the other hand they are WAY to expensive.

Oblits are terrible. Way too expensive.

SemperMortis wrote:

Lootas biggest problem is that with D3 shots they tend to suck and with LD7 they run away a lot. On average your rolling 2 shots, with 10 lootas thats 20 shots and 6-7 hits. At S7 thats not bad, but compared to a lot of other units that isn't that great.

We aren't comparing to a lot of units, we are comparing to CSM.
So for 140 points, you get 20 shots at and 6-7 hits. Good odds to pop a transport.
For 140 points of havoks, I get 5 shots and 3 hits. Most likely won't pop a transport.
Yeah, obviously havoks are better what was I thinking?

SemperMortis wrote:

And what do CSM have that's better? A CSM list will struggle against the Tide, it doesn't have enough offensive firepower to get through all that meat.

I literally told you how to beat a green tide with almost any list. tactical marines can do it with 2 squads. Attack from different sides of the tide and the ork player spends the next 2-3 turns consolidating into CC. Yeah, you won't kill the tide but you just tied up the majority of my forces for 2-3 turns without costing yourself to much.

Quite frankly, throughout the entire discussion, you failed to address the main point. No one is arguing that orks are bad
You are arguing that they are worse than CSM. Which you have failed to do, in every point you bring up.

I am sorry you feel that way, I have pointed out how I think Orks are worse off then CSM but if not please look up, they are about the same but I think that CSM has better options overall.

You rant that Orks are terrible, but its extremely rare for you to say "This is worse than the CSM option in the same role" in your previous post. You aren't comparing units side by side, just mentioning what Orks get like I'm unaware.

SemperMortis wrote:

Please point out how the CSM have better AV spam, Anti-tank, Formations, something equivalent to the custom stompa, better melee, better shooting, absorbing shots, speed, etc etc. Because, from someone who owns both, it seems they are either equal or CSM are worse off in every category.

Rhino's are about the same as trukkz,

No. Trukkz are weaker to bolters, although it still takes a 3 squads at max range to down one, but being able to deliver something to CC is something any CSM commander would kill for. It's our biggest complaint as a dex. Trukkz are much better.
Please point out how a rhino + squad is equal to a trukk mob. In toughness, sure, but 40k is all about killing.

SemperMortis wrote:

Preds make BWs looks silly in terms of dakka

Fair. Preds are one of our better options, but the BW isn't about dakka. We can compare 3-4 Killa Kanz to the Pred, since it's the closest in role. The Pred is arguably equal in toughness between a KFF and all the extra HP, and the pred is better against armored targets (though it'll take 2 rounds to pop a 35 point rhino so...). The Killa kanz meanwhile are dropping 6-8 blast templates a turn and destroying infantry. Its hard to say who's better.

SemperMortis wrote:

in terms of Anti-Tank, you have melta weapons something I really don't have, my most reliable way of killing AV13-14 is with Power Klaws.

Melta weapons get one shot and have to be delivered, and we lack delivery methods. They are much better in eldar (Serpents and Dragons) and SM (Drop pods). With us, they don't do anything until turn 3 or 4, and that's more than half the game. It's why you never see meltas in a CSM force outside of termiecide.
PKs have a similar problem, but at least strike rear armor and a single squad has a good chance to pop a transport. Not so for 3 meltas...one is going to miss.

SemperMortis wrote:

Formations? none of the Ork Formations are worth a damn, The supplement has some gimmicks but they are all gimpy at best. Our Decurion costs around 1,100pts minimum to make a usable deathstar.

Same with Chaos, and I have seen the tide used to good effect.

SemperMortis wrote:

In regards to equivalent to a Custom Stompa? Well when you equip it with guns and shields it costs about as much as a regular Stompa ( a bit less) and your in the same territory as a Warhound titan so.....there you go, take a Chaos Warhound titan. not to hard

It costs quite a bit less than a regular stompa. You could build a custom stompa to be a regular stompa (though why?) and it'll come out less. It's not in the same territory as a Warhound titan either.


I'm going to ask that you include synergies (the KFF is amazing), point costs (Saying Rhino squad=Trukk mob but neglecting points), and be a little more detailed than "This is crap". It IS crap, both of the dexes are crap. It's a matter of which is worse.

SemperMortis wrote:

Better Melee? Well pretty much any unit you have that has an invul save or At initiative AP2 something we lack almost completely except FW.

Really? So 1k sons are better melee than anything you get? They do have an invul after all.
Okay.
Sure.
Makes sense.

SemperMortis wrote:

Better at Dakka? Depends on what your comparing, overall I would say CSM have a lot better dakka then Orks.

Huh, that's weird. When we compared our shootiest units (Lootas vs Havoks, Killa Kanz versus Preds/Brutes, Flyers) it certainly seemed that Orks were pumped out a much much higher volume of fire in every single category. Like...literally every category.
How strange.

SemperMortis wrote:

Absorbing Dakka? Orks don't absorb dakka, they die in droves, so they absorb it in the sense that they lose a ton of models.

Yes, they are a horde army. That's why we bring in points to the conversation.
So for roughly double the points, orks are relying on a 5+ cover (either from the KFF or an actual cover save) while marines are relying on a 3+ save or a similar cover save.
This means against weapons that don't ignore 3+ armor, Orks and Marines lose points at the same rate (twice as many saves for twice as many points).
Against weapons that ignore cover, but not armor, Orks lose points at a much faster rate.
Against weapons that ignore both, Orks lose points at a much slower rate.
Against weapons that ignore armor, Orks lose points at a much slower rate.

I would say the vast majority of weapons, outside of marker lights, fall in the 1st and 4th category, where orks are either tied or advantaged. Obviously if an ork squad is outside of cover, they are easy pickings, but there isn't a reason for orks to be outside of the KFF or cover if they are on foot. Much like guard, they benefit quite a bit from cover in all situations, so there is never a good reason to step outside of it, unless you'll reach CC. And Orks can be very dangerous in CC if a deathstar isn't involved.

A MEQ just isn't that tough in this meta. A bolter will do 4/18 wounds to an ork in cover. So it takes 2 marines in rapid fire range to down 1 ork. 28 points to kill 1 6-7 point model. Outside of cover its a lot worse, 2/6, so every 3 shots downs an ork (though that's still 42 points at range and 21 points up close...). To compare, a MEQ is 2/18, so it takes twice as many shots compared to cover, or 3x as many if the orks don't have cover (the only time marines are tougher).
But what about PGs, Str D, and Grav?
20/54 inside cover, 10/18 outside cover. A PG if the marines are outside cover, will kill 1 Marine or 1 ork per rapid fire. Inside cover, it's more like 2 PGs will down 1.8 orks or Marines. What would you rather lose?

SemperMortis wrote:

Like I said they are WICKED Close, but I would say Orks are worse by a little bit.

You've yet to find a category orks are actually worse in. It's either a tie, or Orks are better.

Aki its hard to debate you on these points, not because your right, but because you make up scenarios in each situation that makes the orks seem stronger and the Chaos units seem weaker.

Fair. Preds are one of our better options, but the BW isn't about dakka. We can compare 3-4 Killa Kanz to the Pred, since it's the closest in role. The Pred is arguably equal in toughness between a KFF and all the extra HP, and the pred is better against armored targets (though it'll take 2 rounds to pop a 35 point rhino so...). The Killa kanz meanwhile are dropping 6-8 blast templates a turn and destroying infantry. Its hard to say who's better.

So 3-4 Killa Kanz at 150-200pts (165-220 with Grotzookas) with an 85pt HQ choice (naked) are arguably as tough as a 140pt (lascannon sponsons and TL lascannon Gun) Predator.

But of course those Killa Kanz are dropping those 6-8 blast templates a turn, destroying infantry, leaving out the fact that those 6-8 blasts are S6 AP5, Range 18 and are small blast templates not large. So those 3-4 killa kanz, escorted by a Big Mek with a KFF have to WALK up the field 6inches in movement and maybe 6 in shooting phase and get to within 18inches of their target. All the while that predator your saying is just as good/tough as those killa Kanz is shooting 2 regular and 1 TL S9 AP2 shots at whatever its targeting.

Or conversely you could just equip your Preds with the bare minimum, add a havoc launcher and vehicle spam. For 37pts more then a Killa Kan you can shoot 2 S7 shots at 48 inches and a S5 small blast at 48 inches. In other words your putting out dakka 2-3 turns before my Kanz are even in range.

So again, I would love to debate you but every time I have tried you keep putting out specific situations or scenarios that favor orks over Chaos.

That Predator loadout does almost no damage. WHY would you ever equip one like that?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That Predator loadout does almost no damage. WHY would you ever equip one like that?

Easy three squadrons of 3?

Chaos currently don't have Predator Squadrons as far as I know.

Or did they sneak in a new errata while I was in vacay?

O right. I've been using C:SM too much.

CSM sucks ass.

SemperMortis wrote:
Aki its hard to debate you on these points, not because your right, but because you make up scenarios in each situation that makes the orks seem stronger and the Chaos units seem weaker.

I'm not making up scenarios, I'm literally comparing units for their intended purpose. I'm even including, in the toughness discussion, every type of firepower their likely to come across. I hardly see how that's made up.
It's certainly a step above "This is trash, this is trash, this is trash"
For the lootas and raider, there isn't even a scenario. I just compared the firepower and looked at how much damage they cause. Unless you think popping transports is a made up scenario?
Unless you're implying that cover saves are weird. I'm not sure what to say to that, my stationary troops always deploy in cover. Even in my havoks. Too many long range guns ignore armor.

SemperMortis wrote:

Fair. Preds are one of our better options, but the BW isn't about dakka. We can compare 3-4 Killa Kanz to the Pred, since it's the closest in role. The Pred is arguably equal in toughness between a KFF and all the extra HP, and the pred is better against armored targets (though it'll take 2 rounds to pop a 35 point rhino so...). The Killa kanz meanwhile are dropping 6-8 blast templates a turn and destroying infantry. Its hard to say who's better.

So 3-4 Killa Kanz at 150-200pts (165-220 with Grotzookas) with an 85pt HQ choice (naked) are arguably as tough as a 140pt (lascannon sponsons and TL lascannon Gun) Predator.

You could make an argument for not including the HQ, though the KFF effects the entire army in a bubble, and it seems to be an auto include for most orks since not having saves is their biggest weakness.
But yes, 3 Killa Kanz are arguably as tough as the predator. They have double the HP and a save, but a weaker front armor and start to lose firepower faster. If shot from the rear, from say a drop pod, the predator dies much quicker.
Obviously its army dependent. Against Eldar, the predator is tougher since scat bikes can't target the front. Against SM, the Kanz are tougher, since a drop pod would rather take out one 150 target then 1 50 point target, but they are likely to cause 3-4 HP either way (not inclduing the save) to rear armor.

SemperMortis wrote:

But of course those Killa Kanz are dropping those 6-8 blast templates a turn, destroying infantry, leaving out the fact that those 6-8 blasts are S6 AP5, Range 18 and are small blast templates not large.

Sure, they are small blasts. Neither army, as far as I'm aware, has access to a large blast weapon that has decent range (maybe the defiler, but its incredibly overcosted).
Given the Orks awful BS, I'm happy with blast templates. Getting 1-2 hits per template is more hits than I usually get with an ork weapon. It's still 6-12 Str 6 hits.
Do you think The kanz cause less damage then the predator with the TL Lascannon and 2 side LCs that you brought up? Against tanks, sure.

However, a predator will rarely knock a rhino out in one turn. One shot will miss, one '1' will be rolled, a cover save...it's not likely to cause 3 HP with only 3 shots. Taking two turns to destroy a 35 point model is awful when you're that expensive.
Against any infantry, it'll kill 2 guys. Maybe less dependent on cover, but it roughly rounds to two. Against MCs it varies on their saves (Invul, Fnp, Cover), so 1-2.
So, against most targets, the Predator causes 1-2 wounds, dependent on cover. I'm sorry if you feel this is "impossible" rather than based on averages.

The Killa kanz cause between 6-12 hits with their blast templates. Against vehicles, the Predator wins. Not that the predator is any good at it, but its a victory for the predator.
Against Troops, MEQ suffer 5/18 wounds per hit. So, 30/18 on the low end, 60/18 on the high end.
Against Eldar or 4+ save troops, 5/12 wounds per hit, so 30/12 or 60/12.
Against MEQ, or 5+ save troops (so cover basically), 10/18 wounds per hit, so 60/18 t o120/18 on the high end.
So against troops, it's equal to the predator on the low end, and much better on the high end.

But yes, impossible scenario.

SemperMortis wrote:

So those 3-4 killa kanz, escorted by a Big Mek with a KFF have to WALK up the field 6inches in movement and maybe 6 in shooting phase and get to within 18inches of their target. All the while that predator your saying is just as good/tough as those killa Kanz is shooting 2 regular and 1 TL S9 AP2 shots at whatever its targeting.

I don't really consider this a weakness for orks, their whole army wants to walk up the field and the KFF is an auto include.
3 lascannon shots, so ~50 points per cannon, isn't very good. I wouldn't pay for 40 points per cannon. Havoks are considered very over priced and their ratios are much better than the pred.

SemperMortis wrote:

Or conversely you could just equip your Preds with the bare minimum, add a havoc launcher and vehicle spam. For 37pts more then a Killa Kan you can shoot 2 S7 shots at 48 inches and a S5 small blast at 48 inches. In other words your putting out dakka 2-3 turns before my Kanz are even in range.

Hmm, thats a decent amount of dakka. It does eat up all your heavies, and I'd rather take havoks who are still better for the points. I'd have to say that, with that set up, they are most likely equal in terms of firepower.

But let's not forget why I was originally suggesting the Kanz. AV spam. The orks can put Killa Kanz, Trukks, and BW under a KFF all loaded with melee troops and push it foward. It's a wall of HP in your face that demands your attention, unless you're a top tier dex with a strong melee unit, or it'll eat you alive. Now, strong armies don't care because bikes/necrons/SM/Tau have enough firepower or melee units to laugh this off, but the weaker dexes can't pump out that much HP damage.

The predator that you mentioned, for example, is likely causing 1 HP per turn. 1. In an army that has over 15 easy. Even if I took 3 units of those predators, I couldn't crack all that armor. De are in a similar tough spot, as are nids. IG are better off, but still struggle. Sisters will struggle with that many targets as well, since they really want to see 3 HP targets in the av 12 area. If I took 3 LC preds, I'm causing 1-2 AV per turn. I'm still not cracking all that armor, especially the BW, and I'm not flanking or hitting the rear. The orks will reach my front line in decent numbers, and I've invested 25% of my army in lascannon preds against orks!

Chaos can't AV spam. Our Rhinos don't carry scary payloads because they can't charge, we don't get razor backs, and our predator doesn't want to be in your face. The best we have is 3 vindicators and a lot of rhinos. But once you eliminate the 3 vindicators, we are pretty much dead in the water, with most armies being able to outshoot us. If we had trukks, we'd be a lot better off.

Orks can.

SemperMortis wrote:

So again, I would love to debate you but every time I have tried you keep putting out specific situations or scenarios that favor orks over Chaos.

I suppose math has an Ork bias
I really don't know what you're talking about, I literally compare the every type of firepower or target you are likely to see. I don't mix up that much, no wulfen for example, because I'd be here all day. But comparing to transports, tanks, MEQ and GEQ is standard for these discussions.

Wow, didnt realise my two favourites codices, were the two weakest. Orks and Chaos

I figured tyranids or dark eldar would be jammed in there somewhere

Girls, girls, you're both ugly!

 Elemental wrote:
Girls, girls, you're both ugly!

Damn right I am!

 Elemental wrote:
Girls, girls, you're both ugly!

B-but senpai...

You could make an argument for not including the HQ, though the KFF effects the entire army in a bubble, and it seems to be an auto include for most orks since not having saves is their biggest weakness.
But yes, 3 Killa Kanz are arguably as tough as the predator. They have double the HP and a save, but a weaker front armor and start to lose firepower faster. If shot from the rear, from say a drop pod, the predator dies much quicker.
Obviously its army dependent. Against Eldar, the predator is tougher since scat bikes can't target the front. Against SM, the Kanz are tougher, since a drop pod would rather take out one 150 target then 1 50 point target, but they are likely to cause 3-4 HP either way (not inclduing the save) to rear armor.


I don't really consider this a weakness for orks, their whole army wants to walk up the field and the KFF is an auto include.
3 lascannon shots, so ~50 points per cannon, isn't very good. I wouldn't pay for 40 points per cannon. Havoks are considered very over priced and their ratios are much better than the pred.

Do you understand how a KFF functions? This is an honest question because from the way your talking about it I don't think you do. a KFF is a 5++ bubble, it is 6 inches in any direction from the model carrying it, if you put the model in a vehicle to give it some semblance of protection you limit the KFF to just THAT vehicle. So for a KFF to provide a bubble for the entire army you would need at least 3 of them, for them to keep up with the vehicle spam your talking about you would need to put the Big Mek on a bike, and to keep the Big Mek alive you would need to provide him with an escort, probably a biker squad since they can keep up with him. So for 3 Big Mekz to have KFFs on bikes with a minimum squad of Ork Warbikers as an escort (no nob no pk) would cost 164pts PER Mek or for all 3 of them 492pts.

But let's not forget why I was originally suggesting the Kanz. AV spam. The orks can put Killa Kanz, Trukks, and BW under a KFF all loaded with melee troops and push it foward. It's a wall of HP in your face that demands your attention, unless you're a top tier dex with a strong melee unit, or it'll eat you alive. Now, strong armies don't care because bikes/necrons/SM/Tau have enough firepower or melee units to laugh this off, but the weaker dexes can't pump out that much HP damage.

So 1 Unit of Kanz (6 strong) with Grotzookas since you like them is 330pts
3 Units of Trukkz filled with Boyz with a Nob/PK = 426pts
3 Big Mekz on bikes with KFFs with a small squad to escort = 492pts
2 BWs filled with boyz with a nob/pk and armed with 4 big shootaz/Rokkitz and a Cannon = 624

So thats 12 HPs from the Kanz, 9 HPs from the Trukkz and 8 HPs from the Battle Wagonz. All for the measly price of 1872pts. Even if you reduce the boyz by a couple to reduce that to 1850pts your left with a VERY useless force.

For starters those Kanz are slowing down the entire army because they move so slow, the Bikers are useless because they don't have a PK in them, and your using them solely for that KFF for your vehicles and ohh yeah your vehicles? 5 open topped transports, against those expensive Las Preds we were talking about? 2 hits = 2 pens against trukkz, with a 1/3rd chance to save it with that 5++ KFF save, so probably not going to happen, those pens are +2 on the chart because of Open topped and AP2 meaning that you have a 50/50 chance to immobilize or destroy a trukk EACH turn.

realistically the only good threat in that list is the Battlewagonz because if you can manage to survive one round of shooting and rush the SOB forward you can usually get a turn 2 assault.

Chaos can't AV spam. Our Rhinos don't carry scary payloads because they can't charge, we don't get razor backs, and our predator doesn't want to be in your face. The best we have is 3 vindicators and a lot of rhinos. But once you eliminate the 3 vindicators, we are pretty much dead in the water, with most armies being able to outshoot us. If we had trukks, we'd be a lot better off.

Orks can.

Well for 1870ish points I can make the following list that has 10 Havoc launcher armed Rhinos for a total of 10 S5 small blasts at Range 48, and 19 Missile Launchers.
Sorcerer
3x Havocs with rhino and missile launchers
3x Chosen with rhino and 1 missile launcher
4x CSMs with Rhino and 1 missile launcher.

So for the same points as the ork player your taking a grand total of 30 HPs to the ork players 29, ALL of your good weapons are Range 48 so your probably going to be in range from the start of the game, where as the Ork player is going to be out of range of his grotzookas for almost the entire game. Yeah those Rhino's aren't going to stand up to any heavy weapons but at 47pts they are cheaper then my Kanz and have better weapons. Ohh and did I mention that against those 80 boyz that the ork player is fielding with their scary 6+ armor you have 40 CSMs 15 Chosen and 15 Havocs, or in other words 70 Power armor models.

So explain to me again how you as a CSM player can't spam anything? I am not saying this list is good against those top tier codex's but I am pointing out that you can spam 3+ models with HP spam almost as well as I can spam 6+ models and HP spam.

I like the number of people that have voted Tau and Eldar.

Shirley, you jest?

CSM is the majority vote by far. Seems to be a strong consensus.
Its a shame that GW leaves CSM in the open.

Don't worry, we'll get a 7E codex about a month before 8E drops. The new book will have doubled the random tables for double the fluffliness, and we will have another dinobot, based off the dinobot kits we already have!

Update the model line you say? Why? You can just spam plasmaguns and win easily already. If you want other stuff, just buy a box of Space Marines already, jeez.

Oh, and a much needed DP nerf will be added.

 Selym wrote:
I like the number of people that have voted Tau and Eldar.

Shirley, you jest?

Why only mention the first and fourth most powerful armies? I can't believe people are convinced Space Marines could possibly be the weakest! Nor Dark Angels, Space Wolves etc.

But 3+ saves are so underpowered! Feel our blight!

Imagine how armies with 4+, 5+ or 6+ save feel then!

Omg, you don't understand! We have to pay for our saves, and they are just useless, so all our models are overpriced as hell!

 Selym wrote:
Omg, you don't understand! We have to pay for our saves, and they are just useless, so all our models are overpriced as hell!

The taxes we have to take to make our units viable s ridiculous.

How dare armies like IG get both cheap units AND really powerful ap3 spam?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vash108 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Omg, you don't understand! We have to pay for our saves, and they are just useless, so all our models are overpriced as hell!

The taxes we have to take to make our units viable s ridiculous.

IKR?

 Selym wrote:
Omg, you don't understand! We have to pay for our saves, and they are just useless, so all our models are overpriced as hell!

You know, it's kind of funny. You are still trying to make fun of Martel even though the only one you really end up making fun of is yourself.

I'm attacking C:SM players. Actually hadn't been thinking of martel.

Oh think of the martel!

OMG we get so few releases, why do tyranids get a unit type that we don't even have?

In all seriousness, the value of a 3+ save has been greatly diminished. Only units with defenses far superior to 3+ get to live in 7th ed.

 Selym wrote:
I'm attacking C:SM players

Please don't. Rule #1 is a thing even if you do not like a playerbase.

I must admit still being rather puzzled by Codex power tiers. I mean, I play Space Marines and Necrons and I repeatedly lose to Chaos Space Marines. It seems to me that player skill and luck play a big factor.

It's anecdotal but I have a hard time reconciling what I read online with actual games I witness. It's not even me, I've seen this same Chaos player beat a Necron Decurion just last week at my gaming store.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I'm attacking C:SM players

Please don't. Rule #1 is a thing even if you do not like a playerbase.

Think of the ULTRAMARINES!

How can we play fluffily if they keep getting borked by lasguns?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gree wrote:
I must admit still being rather puzzled by Codex power tiers. I mean, I play Space Marines and Necrons and I repeatedly lose to Chaos Space Marines. It seems to me that player skill and luck play a big factor.

It's anecdotal but I have a hard time reconciling what I read online with actual games I witness. It's not even me, I've seen this same Chaos player beat a Necron Decurion just last week at my gaming store.

What did the necrons use, and what did Chaos use?