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So I'm thinking about switching my army over to the imperial fists because of Horus heresy, and i'm trying to build some 40k lists. Only problem is, I don't know how to get the most out of the Chapter Tactics for them. I like how cheap the devastator squads are, but at the same time they are super squishy compared to the centurions. The centurions are tough and have quite a few guns / hit better (I need re-rolls.) but they are pricey pretty much no matter.

to be honest I'm looking for anti-tank, so not too much discussion on grav-cannons please?

Are you running telepathy librarians?

Martel732 wrote:
Are you running telepathy librarians?

Probably not, As I like my captains too much

Centurions will be more mobile, and can bring a lot of dakka with their basic loadout, which will be good for bolstering your gunline. That said, all of their Bolt weapons are twin-linked anyway, so Bolter Drill won't have an effect. They will take a lot more punishment than standard Devastators, though, and can be used as a pretty effective screening unit for things trying to hurt your Tacticals.

Devastators will be able to put out more Lascannon shots for a lower price overall (I think), and so will be better recipients for the Seige Masters rule. The long range weaponry will make their relative fragility less of an issue, and the Devastator Sergeant makes a good crewman for an emplaced weapon (especially with his Signum).

So it's a bit of a boring answer, really. Basically, they both have a role and can both be effective in their own right.

The centurions will be targeted and removed without invisibility. I would be hesitant to field them. T5, 2+ armor with no invuln is actually very vulnerable, especially for their point cost.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
to be honest I'm looking for anti-tank, so not too much discussion on grav-cannons please?

The problem is that grav is better anti tank than twin linked lascannons, so there's not much point ever taking the Las option, though for fists it's not as bad.

3 Twin Linked lascannons vs AV10 AV11 AV12 AV13 AV14 AV15 3.41 2.81 2.22 1.63 1.04 0.44 3 IF TL Lascannons vs AV10 AV11 AV12 AV13 AV14 AV15 3.41 3.23 2.89 2.37 1.68 0.81 3 Grav cannons w/amps vs AV10 AV11 AV12 AV13 AV14 AV15 5.11 5.11 5.11 5.11 5.11 5.11

*Counting explodes results as an additional 2 HP

The grav cannon is better anti vehicle than a twin linked las with tank hunter, even against open topped AV10, hell, even against an AV12 superheavy where you're looking at 3.05 for grav vs 2.89 for the tank hunting lascannons. Even when you account for the fact that lasdevs are 10 points cheaper, you're still coming out ahead with grav devs per point.

As for the Devs vs Cents question: Cents will be the better choice if you're getting shot at by anything that's not Str 10 AP2 while devs are the choice if you expect them to be left alone.

The real advantage for Las cannons is the superior range. It doesn't count for a lot, but it helps depending on the rest of the composition.

Still, Lascannons are garbage on Centurions so who cares?

Devastators can be pretty tough to kill. If you have a Techmarine you can bolster a choice piece of terrain and stick the Devastators in there, so it's pretty easy to get a 4+ or 3+ cover save. Combine that with the extra bodies in the squad and you can usually survive a couple of shooting phases with the important stuff still alive.

I like either Missile Launchers or Lascannon with my Devastators, and flak missiles are actually okay with Imperial Fists as they can reliably threaten flyers and force them to jink.

Centurions are not as good, point for point, as long range shooting as Devastators. They cost too much and lose too much to return fire. However, if you can take a drop pod or something to deliver them to short range then their grav cannon are the best weapon in the Space Marine arsenal.

Devastators are the more generic choice but are purely support troops, while Centurions can win you games if you build the right army around them.

Flak missiles don't threaten flying MCs. That's their problem.

Martel732 wrote:
Are you running telepathy librarians?

You could always run sanctic librarians, give them storm shields, put them in the cent squad and gate them into shooting range.

As pointed out earlier, Grav Cannons with Grav Amps are flat out better than Lascannons for anti-tank roles even if you add Tank Hunters into the mix. Lascannons have the range and price advantage to their name. However, Lascannons are not worth it on Centurions; always give Devastator Centurions Grav Cannons, you're just wasting your money and points if you don't. Chucking Centurions in a Drop Pod is considered "mean" and they will guarantee results against almost anything, though they do cost a lot and are liable to dying very quickly. If you're wanting more of a gun-line kind of army then go with the Devastators and hide them at the back, they will free up a lot of points for other stuff in your force too. Otherwise, Centurions are a real gem and have the important advantage of giving Gargantuan Creatures nightmares.

If you really want to go the extra mile and make your Centurions mean, you could add the Missile Launchers on to them. Then you take advantage of your Tank Hunters ability AND have the Grav Cannons. You WILL rip apart basically anything in your path.

Martel732 wrote:
Flak missiles don't threaten flying MCs. That's their problem.

Hence why I specified flyers, not monstrous creatures.

The best weapon against FMCs are grav cannon in Tactical squads, getting re-rolls from a Tactical Doctrine.

Hmm, yea, I guess grav would be the best, but I don't know if i want to put them in a pod. Too TFG for my tastes. Alright, so for devastators how is this load out?

x10 marines, x4 lascannons : 220pts

That way I can combat squad with 2 lascannons in each squad to slit fire at different targets while using only 1 heavy support slot.

Putting them in a pod is a good way to kill one thing and then die. It's not TFG at all.

Martel732 wrote:
Putting them in a pod is a good way to kill one thing and then die. It's not TFG at all.

Put them with Tigirius led conclave and Draigo, prey to the emperor you get Invisibility, Veil of Time, Chasm or Perfect Timing, form that good old classical and effective Wraith Knight (and almost all ground GMC) hunter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Hmm, yea, I guess grav would be the best, but I don't know if i want to put them in a pod. Too TFG for my tastes. Alright, so for devastators how is this load out?

x10 marines, x4 lascannons : 220pts

That way I can combat squad with 2 lascannons in each squad to slit fire at different targets while using only 1 heavy support slot.

That is classical Devastator load out, can be OK in casual game, and good in having line of fire covering most part of the board though, but generally speaking, if you do this way, don't expect the two combated squad can destroy two enemy vehicle or MC in one go, you will need extreme luck to achieve that, the more realistic hope in doing this is to temporarily neutralize two different tanks / transport vehicles by achieving crew stunned / shaken result, or better in Weapon destroyed if that is a tank, or Immobilize in the case of vehicle that served as more of a transport (i.e. Land Raider Crusader / Redeemer).

This far in and i'm really surprised the Angels of Death Fist formation hasn't come up.

2 specific details that are valuable in it:

1. Twin linked bolter weapons, regardless. This makes Devastator Heavy Bolters borderline appealing.
2. While remaining battleforged, you can take 11 devastator squads, or 10 centurion squads. The tradeoff is you have to take the demi company - 3 tacs, and 1 ASM gaining tactical doctrine

To the original topic,in modern 40k you can't rely on power armour or even centurion armour alone, in part because you'll be facing the exact same, or at least lists constructed mainly to address that specific threat space. If your cents or devs are going to survive you *have* to augment them. Received wisdom is conclave + invisibility, but the Aegis Defence Line or other fortification mischief can work. Void Shield Generator for example.

As a (non-competitive) IF player my own experience is that somewhere past the 20 mark in 5 dev squads IF plasma cannons morph into something wonderful, compared to a 'mere' 12 grav cannons in 3 squads at the same price, or 8 split between 2 grav cents squads.

The talking point on the Dev/Grav situation is that 1 gravcannon is the same cost as 1 lascannon *and* one marine to lug it around, adjust for inflation as you go down the heavy weapons catalogue. As such the statistics shift a bit more into their favor at the lower scale of the armour chart at equal points, but you have to decide if this is a worthwhile investment for your area since grav works well in most anti-personnel roles too.

Now despite the obvious thematic synergy between centurions & Fists, IF are possibly the Worst (after BT) Chapter for Centurions, as their traits provide absolutely no benefit for the Grav loadout. The only bright spot is in AoD allowing 6 centurion units in a single CAD, or 2 in an allied formation.

My recommendation is if you're going Dev, *don't* use grav, put them on the Centurions where they belong, and bite the bullet to augment them somehow.

I failed to mention this before but yes, of course my devs would be sitting in cover for another save besides armor, including the devastator centurions. You people make it sound like i'm having them stand in the open =P I know ignores cover exists, but I don't think it would be worth it to add a librarian or something to anything besides grav cents.

also for whatever reason that I cannot come up with at the time, I don't really like decurion style detachments. it's just... feels wrong to play them. I'm fine with regular detachments but otherwise it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I failed to mention this before but yes, of course my devs would be sitting in cover for another save besides armor, including the devastator centurions. You people make it sound like i'm having them stand in the open =P I know ignores cover exists, but I don't think it would be worth it to add a librarian or something to anything besides grav cents.

Until someone smacks the Skyhammer full of GravDevs too close...

 Tiger9gamer wrote:

also for whatever reason that I cannot come up with at the time, I don't really like decurion style detachments. it's just... feels wrong to play them. I'm fine with regular detachments but otherwise it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But that is an entirely legitimate position re: CAD. My previous mention of the IF Cents getting Elite & Heavy support means you could, by breathing in very firmly, max both devs and cents in the same CAD. Would be interesting to see if that works actually

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
I failed to mention this before but yes, of course my devs would be sitting in cover for another save besides armor, including the devastator centurions. You people make it sound like i'm having them stand in the open =P I know ignores cover exists, but I don't think it would be worth it to add a librarian or something to anything besides grav cents.

also for whatever reason that I cannot come up with at the time, I don't really like decurion style detachments. it's just... feels wrong to play them. I'm fine with regular detachments but otherwise it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Watch out for Tau having S8, AP2 large Blast weapon from 60inch away with marker light giving Ignore cover though, or Eldar whose 15 high mobility bikes can have 60 S6 AP- shots at 36inch. Both of these can can wipe out your Devastors without any difficulty. And Invisibility is the almost the only way to save them.

I've been using a boring standard dev squad with missiles (with flakk, of course.) I usually have an inquisitor using divination with them.

Now, missile launcher is a terrible weapon, and I would never take it on non-IF marines, but tank hunters makes it okay and actually pretty decent against air targets.

I think this is a decent cheap TAC choice for small games. In bigger games it is probably better to give devs lascannons and handle the air defence in other ways.

I haven't used centurions, they're too ugly to exist, so they're not an option for me.

With the introduction of Cataphracti captains I think Imperial fist Devs might be worth taking, however it is hard because for the points it is almost the same price as taking a Dev Cents squad.

However Dev Cents get almost nothing from the IF tactics so....

Tank hunter would not be a big consideration since vehicles are so weak.

Martel732 wrote:
Tank hunter would not be a big consideration since vehicles are so weak.

It means you need fewer weapons to reliably destroy a vehicle. It is important.

Martel732 wrote:
Tank hunter would not be a big consideration since vehicles are so weak.

It is great when you face IK or other superheavy though, you need every shot count.

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tank hunter would not be a big consideration since vehicles are so weak.

It means you need fewer weapons to reliably destroy a vehicle. It is important.

Meh. That assumes that there is a vehicle that's a priority. There really isn't. Even IKs are pretty easy to kill with side shots. No tank hunter necessary.

Grav is certainly better on the centurions... but in a weaker meta you'd get most out of your chapter tactics with lascannons and missile boobs