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 jhe90 wrote:
Or in a a team turn of events thousands of square cn deamon cubes

What a wasteful idea. Turn them into sword, that is what you should to with them.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Or in a a team turn of events thousands of square cn deamon cubes

What a wasteful idea. Turn them into sword, that is what you should to with them.

Las guns. Then they may do damage lol.

Deadshot wrote:
Except when that Daemon rock exerts it force

I don't think you understand the concept of a 'sealed' daemon. They only have whatever force you choose to permit them. We saw in Eisenhorn that Cherubael could be bound more or less tightly depending the level of power you wanted to leak through. We also saw that the more power that was suppressed, the more the daemon's personality and cognitive skills were also.

If you were binding them into rune-inscribed warded rocks dedicated to suppress and contain warp energy, the daemons bound inside aren't going to planning anything, or opening warp rifts, or combining into giant rock monsters, or anything. They are bound, that's the entire point.

/Tzeentch's plan to alter the course of an asteroid to put it on a collision course with a major world and bring the rocks with it.

The Imperial Navy hjas enough firepower to eliminate any extraneous asteroid threat. The main risk would be some sort of space hulk dropping out on top of it.

Or the daemon rocks are now floating in an asteroid belt and open a warp rift using the belt as its outer edges, allowing millions of Daemons to flood through

They can't open warp rifts. They are bound. Sealed. That's the point. And as said before, you could easily ensure that any background warp activity remained containable by ensuring you never stored enough daemon rocks in any location for it to even be close the critical mass required to be dangerous.

jhe90 wrote:Or in a a team turn of events thousands of square cn deamon cubes form into a walking rock that fires deamon rocks at you from a weapon built of deamon rocks and cannot be killed as you have to destroy every of the the thousands of rocks it made of.

That's an unbound daemon, and therefore outside the scope of the scenario. You might as well be imagining bloodthirsters randomly translating out.

Quickjager wrote:Or the asteroid turns into a warp tear. Thus suckling in all surrounding ships

Why would it? For the third time, the amount of warp power needed to achieve such feats is easily calculated. It's happened enough times, and usually requires millions of deaths to achieve. You'd have to literally be storing billions of daemons for the residual warp energy level to be approaching that mass, and the Inquisition would just switch to a different far away asteroid long before they got close to it.

I repeat, it's not the best idea in the world for a number of potential complications and things that could go wrong, but these ideas of random tears in the fabric of reality and giant rock firing monsters just would not occur.

 Ketara wrote:

Deadshot wrote:
Except when that Daemon rock exerts it force

I don't think you understand the concept of a 'sealed' daemon. They only have whatever force you choose to permit them. We saw in Eisenhorn that Cherubael could be bound more or less tightly depending the level of power you wanted to leak through. We also saw that the more power that was suppressed, the more the daemon's personality and cognitive skills were also.

If you were binding them into rune-inscribed warded rocks dedicated to suppress and contain warp energy, the daemons bound inside aren't going to planning anything, or opening warp rifts, or combining into giant rock monsters, or anything. They are bound, that's the entire point.

/Tzeentch's plan to alter the course of an asteroid to put it on a collision course with a major world and bring the rocks with it.

The Imperial Navy hjas enough firepower to eliminate any extraneous asteroid threat. The main risk would be some sort of space hulk dropping out on top of it.

Or the daemon rocks are now floating in an asteroid belt and open a warp rift using the belt as its outer edges, allowing millions of Daemons to flood through

They can't open warp rifts. They are bound. Sealed. That's the point. And as said before, you could easily ensure that any background warp activity remained containable by ensuring you never stored enough daemon rocks in any location for it to even be close the critical mass required to be dangerous.

jhe90 wrote:Or in a a team turn of events thousands of square cn deamon cubes form into a walking rock that fires deamon rocks at you from a weapon built of deamon rocks and cannot be killed as you have to destroy every of the the thousands of rocks it made of.

That's an unbound daemon, and therefore outside the scope of the scenario. You might as well be imagining bloodthirsters randomly translating out.

Quickjager wrote:Or the asteroid turns into a warp tear. Thus suckling in all surrounding ships

Why would it? For the third time, the amount of warp power needed to achieve such feats is easily calculated. It's happened enough times, and usually requires millions of deaths to achieve. You'd have to literally be storing billions of daemons for the residual warp energy level to be approaching that mass, and the Inquisition would just switch to a different far away asteroid long before they got close to it.

I repeat, it's not the best idea in the world for a number of potential complications and things that could go wrong, but these ideas of random tears in the fabric of reality and giant rock firing monsters just would not occur.

You really don't seem to understand how Chaos works. Any attempt to impose order on Chaos WILL faill. Like I said, Tzeentch could put a plan in motion millennia before you are born so that all your warding fails at a precise moment. Khorne can break through your warding on strength, after lying in wait. Slaanesh can exert its willpower to seduce you into releasing it. Nurgle can cause the seals to wither and decay. That is how daemons work. No matter how much you think you can control it, it cannot be controlled. You talk about having not enough Daemons in one place to be a threat? One Daemon alone is a threat, so your options are place them all together or spread them out to spread their influence. Just existing in the material realm exerts focus. They don't actively have to open a rift, the rift can occur simply because there is a lot of them floating around in a circle. You talk about giving a Daemon a certain power level, which assumes you actually have such power yourself to do that, and not just tricked into thinking you can comtain the daemon and have it suddenly unleashed. You also mention Eisenhorn, a powerful protagonist who's power is equal to what is necessary to complete the narrative in one author's interpretation of a daemon, who's combination of powers and personality and abilities are as infinite as there are multiverses. The way things work in that novel do not define how things work in every other example.
Let me reiterate; any attempt to impose order upon Chaos will fail.

 Deadshot wrote:


You really don't seem to understand how Chaos works. Any attempt to impose order on Chaos WILL faill. Like I said, Tzeentch could put a plan in motion millennia before you are born so that all your warding fails at a precise moment. Khorne can break through your warding on strength, after lying in wait. Slaanesh can exert its willpower to seduce you into releasing it. Nurgle can cause the seals to wither and decay. That is how daemons work. No matter how much you think you can control it, it cannot be controlled. You talk about having not enough Daemons in one place to be a threat? One Daemon alone is a threat, so your options are place them all together or spread them out to spread their influence. Just existing in the material realm exerts focus. They don't actively have to open a rift, the rift can occur simply because there is a lot of them floating around in a circle. You talk about giving a Daemon a certain power level, which assumes you actually have such power yourself to do that, and not just tricked into thinking you can comtain the daemon and have it suddenly unleashed. You also mention Eisenhorn, a powerful protagonist who's power is equal to what is necessary to complete the narrative in one author's interpretation of a daemon, who's combination of powers and personality and abilities are as infinite as there are multiverses. The way things work in that novel do not define how things work in every other example.
Let me reiterate; any attempt to impose order upon Chaos will fail.

In other words, you believe Chaos is all powerful and breaks whatever rules it wants, purely because it's chaos?

Nope. Doesn't work like that. If it did, Geller Fields wouldn't be able to stop daemons from boarding ships because 'Nurgle could cause it to wither and decay', psykers would all inevitably fall to Tzeentch because he would have schemed events a million years hence to cause it, Grey Knights would all be humping daemonettes because their willpower would insufficient to resist their allure, etcetc.

Chaos follows certain essential principles within the Warhammer 40K Universe. Certain rules. There's a reason a thousand bloodthirsters don't randomly appear on Maccrage every six months, y'know?

To follow one case, warp rifts. In order to thin the boundary between the immaterium and reality sufficiently to open a rift, you require a certain level of warp energy. Having a daemonhost lurking about isn't it. We've seen from countless books and scenarios provided from GW that to drag a planet into the warp usually requires a massive expenditure of warp energy, usually in the form of deaths and sacrifice. That's from games, books, scenarios, practically every type of fluff distributed. You can open a small temporary gate into the warp if you can channel a tightly focused enough blast of warp energy, but a bunch of daemons sealed into rocks don't have the cognitive or warp power to to perform such actions.

When it comes to sealing daemons into things, there's usually two factors involved: the strength of the sealing, and the strength of the sealed. A weak daemon sealed into a weapon is often bound endlessly with severely limited (or no) cognitive skills. A Greater Daemon on the other hand, is not only often conscious, but capable of actively corroding the seals binding it should they not be reinforced. How long it takes and whether it is possible depends on the strength of the sealing (see the Great Unclean One locked up inside the Black Pyramid for millennia by the Eldar as a good example).

The majority of daemons are weak warp entities. Given binding by a sufficiently strong psyker, they can be suppressed, both in power and consciousness more or less indefinitely. Greater Daemons on the other hand usually require a much stronger binding method, be it Tesseract Vaults, stasis fields, or entire buildings, and you have to actively reinforce the binding periodically if it's anything less than a ridiculously strong binding by the Emperor himself or something. You would have to store such daemons separately most likely, I doubt you'd have more than one per asteroid.

But those are just details, the theory is sound. There are plenty of complications and potential threats to such a scheme, but I reiterate, random warp rifts are not it. If you go down that route, you might as well just suggest that Slaanesh will show up in person whilst brofisting Gork to smash it up for all the sense it makes.

Putting thousands, or even millions or billions, of daemonhosts in one place seems like a damn good way of getting a warp rift, or at least a megaconvergence of warp related ickiness.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Putting thousands, or even millions or billions, of daemonhosts in one place seems like a damn good way of getting a warp rift, or at least a megaconvergence of warp related ickiness.

Aye. I daresay that even with the strongest of binding techniques available to the Big I fellows, there's a point at which you would naturally begin to thin the walls of reality purely on the basis that so much warp power was being suppressed there.

The trick would be to accurately calculate what that level is, and make sure to never store more than half that (or even a quarter) on any one asteroid in any one region of space.

The downsides would be the risk of Tzeentch dropping a space hulk on it from out of the warp inside your interdiction, the vast navy resources required to interdict so many bloody asteroids, and the size/strength of the Inquisitorial team required would make them the biggest threat to the Imperium at large since Vandire were they corrupted.

It has been hinted for two codices now that the GK monastery has a powerful warp entity in the center of it. It is of such power that it permeates the lower chambers of Titan where only the Prognosticators and Purifiers are allowed to venture to.

The most anti-daemon place in the Imperium perhaps second only to the Black Library or the Emperor's presence itself.

And they have Daemon problems.

Also you can't calculate the energy needed... how would you do that? You just need to meet one of the numbers of the Four Gods and you're screwed.

Even if you weren't you literally have the largest repository of raw Daemon weapon materials in the Universe.

 Quickjager wrote:
It has been hinted for two codices now that the GK monastery has a powerful warp entity in the center of it. It is of such power that it permeates the lower chambers of Titan where only the Prognosticators and Purifiers are allowed to venture to.

The most anti-daemon place in the Imperium perhaps second only to the Black Library or the Emperor's presence itself.

And they have Daemon problems.

Also you can't calculate the energy needed... how would you do that? You just need to meet one of the numbers of the Four Gods and you're screwed.

Even if you weren't you literally have the largest repository of raw Daemon weapon materials in the Universe.

Aye. That would be a problem for the Imperium, that is to say, the actual strength of their sealing techniques. The Eldar have shown that they have the psychic power and techniques to seal greater daemons indefinitely, so the craft clearly exists. Meanwhile, the Necrons have demonstrated that it is possible to achieve the same effect with a purely technological solution. Mankind however, simply doesn't have either to the same degree, they usually rely on banishing daemons by physically rending them instead of containing them.

If Eisenhorn showed us one thing, it's that the sorts of psychic techniques required to seal daemons so are usually frowned upon as heresy. So you'd need a massive turnaround in Imperial thought in order to get the backing necessary to do the research into stronger bindings. I think they could easily bind the the vast incoherent mass of weaker daemons, but they'd have problems with the stronger ones.

Alright and then another Bloodtide or something happens when it all crumbles to dust in a thousand years. It's just a bad idea from so many viewpoints; the Necrons didn't do it because they COULDN'T it was too time and resource intensive they also had the issue of not being psykers.

The Eldar don't do it because they are so sensitive daemons are a predator to them. Everything points to Humanity all eventually being psykers they would run into the same problem.

Are there even a finite amount of daemons? What if Orks came in search if these repositories to fight big fights. The Imperium would be overwhelmed at each location one at a time. This applies to Chas forces as well.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright and then another Bloodtide or something happens when it all crumbles to dust in a thousand years. It's just a bad idea from so many viewpoints; the Necrons didn't do it because they COULDN'T it was too time and resource intensive they also had the issue of not being psykers.

The Eldar don't do it because they are so sensitive daemons are a predator to them. Everything points to Humanity all eventually being psykers they would run into the same problem.

Are there even a finite amount of daemons? What if Orks came in search if these repositories to fight big fights. The Imperium would be overwhelmed at each location one at a time. This applies to Chas forces as well.

The fact that the Eldar are capable of doing it and performing sealings which last more or less indefinitely certainly indicates the possibility of being able to bind Greater Daemons in a way in which they cannot escape. If it's n an asteroid somewhere, it also removes any issues of containment if it does break free.

The only problem is the lack of strong sealing techniques possessed by humanity. A Tesseract Labyrinth has only worked once, so they'd need to either acquire a crap ton of Tesseract Vaults from somewhere, collaborate with the Eldar to perform the sealings, somehow dedicate time and research into developing better methods, or accept they'd need to redo the binding every few centuries.

None are very likely, sadly.

The Necron devices do fail, from time to time, as they break down or lose power through mechanical failure. They're also static defenses, used to protect Tombs and such, not something they just set up willy-nilly wherever they want.

Eldar have powerful psykers and the best rune-crafters the galaxy has seen, but to bind the more-powerful daemons, you need at least fragments of its True Name, if not the entirety of it, which is not really going to be possible to acquire on a short time scale for millions of daemons.

There then comes the problem where, if the Chaos God is actually getting bothered by its daemons getting trapped, it just withdraws all its power currently invested in them back, and makes new ones.

In other words, you believe Chaos is all powerful and breaks whatever rules it wants, purely because it's chaos?

That is exactly how Chaos functions, yes. That is how it gives people tentacles or brightly-patterened skin, uncontrollable flatulence and bulging biceps... all at the same time. It is how the "impossibilities" of Daemon Worlds and the effects of the Warp happen.

Any order that exists in the galaxy exists as an expression of Chaos, for it arose from Chaos, and to Chaos it will return, for that is the law of entropy. What Mankind and the Eldar, the Necrons, the Tyranids, the Tau and all the other non-Chaotic factions of the setting are doing is simply delaying the inevitable. Chaos will, eventually, win.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Necron devices do fail, from time to time, as they break down or lose power through mechanical failure. They're also static defenses, used to protect Tombs and such, not something they just set up willy-nilly wherever they want.

Source for Tesseract devices suffering mechanical failure?

Eldar have powerful psykers and the best rune-crafters the galaxy has seen, but to bind the more-powerful daemons, you need at least fragments of its True Name, if not the entirety of it, which is not really going to be possible to acquire on a short time scale for millions of daemons.

Hey, no-one said it would be a short term project.

There then comes the problem where, if the Chaos God is actually getting bothered by its daemons getting trapped, it just withdraws all its power currently invested in them back, and makes new ones.

Source please. I don't recall ever hearing of a sealed daemon ever having its power withdrawn by the relevant God, not to mention the fact that not all daemons work for the big 4.

In other words, you believe Chaos is all powerful and breaks whatever rules it wants, purely because it's chaos?

That is exactly how Chaos functions, yes. That is how it gives people tentacles or brightly-patterened skin, uncontrollable flatulence and bulging biceps... all at the same time. It is how the "impossibilities" of Daemon Worlds and the effects of the Warp happen.

Nope. Totally isn't. You're reading the word 'Chaos' and assuming that means it can do whatever it likes, when the very fact the galaxy hasn't been swallowed by Chaos proves otherwise. Slaanesh can't just decide the Emperor annoys him and destroy him, Tzeentch can't wave a hand and make the Cadian pylons vanish, Khorne can't suddenly decide he actually prefers cooking over bloodshed, and Nurgle can't turn Mork into an Eldar Guardian with a craving for cheese.

'Chaos' can be used as a description for the natural phenomenon/dimension known as the 'Warp', which possesses certain laws and characteristics, or for a warp based lifeform/entity, which also has certain traits and follows certain rules. Chaos follows different laws to those of the materium, which is where the name comes from, but that does not mean it does not have it's own restrictions and characteristics. It just means that they're different.

Any order that exists in the galaxy exists as an expression of Chaos, for it arose from Chaos, and to Chaos it will return, for that is the law of entropy. What Mankind and the Eldar, the Necrons, the Tyranids, the Tau and all the other non-Chaotic factions of the setting are doing is simply delaying the inevitable. Chaos will, eventually, win.

Unless the Shadow in the Warp silences it. Or a great work of the C'Tan equivalent cuts it off from the materium forever. Or Gork and Mork get insanely powerful and squash the big 4 (being Chaos warp entities in their own right).

Source please. I don't recall ever hearing of a sealed daemon ever having its power withdrawn by the relevant God, not to mention the fact that not all daemons work for the big 4.

There aren't enough daemons sealed away for any of the Ruinous Powers to notice. Currently, they don't care. But, as they say, "The god giveth, the god taketh away". A daemon that is sworn to a patron Power is created by that Power, a manifestation of its own nature. Unaligned daemons are just simply coalescences of the raw energy of the Warp, which is infinite.

Unless the Shadow in the Warp silences it. Or a great work of the C'Tan equivalent cuts it off from the materium forever. Or Gork and Mork get insanely powerful and squash the big 4 (being Chaos warp entities in their own right).

The Shadow in the Warp is just an interference field created by the wholly-alien minds of the Tyranids. It disrupts the Warp as it is understood by the sentient species of the galaxy and basically replaces it with the Tyranid version, which is why the daemons born from the residents of this galaxy get thrown back into the Warp. The neighborhood just changed around them and they don't recognize it anymore.

If Tyranids have any sort of emotions other than hunger, or any sort of capacity for dreaming then, eventually, the Warp will shift to reflect them (assuming they devour everything else in the galaxy).

The C'Tan are all sharded and/or dead. They aren't going to be making anything to shut the Warp off any time soon. Or, ever, really. If what the Deceiver said before the War in Heaven is true, the C'Tan got their asses handed to them by the Old Ones, which were a mortal race that lived in a calm Warp. Now? Now, the Warp is inhabited by actual gods and an infinite number of creatures, all of which are made of the stuff that is to the C'Tan what water was to the aliens out of Signs.

Even if we assume that the C'Tan do make such a thing, the rest of the galaxy is going to be either dead or enslaved to them and their newly-re-enslaved Necron toys in short order. Without the ability to enter the Warp, none of the other factions stand a chance.

Gork and Mork smashing the other 4 doesn't mean squat. Chaos Gods fight one another all the time. If those two took over the Warp, then it means the galaxy now belongs to the Orks, and the Imperium is in ashes, the Eldar have fled to the farthest reaches (or into the Webway), and the Orks are the only ones left to fight the Tyranids... which suits the Greenskins just fine.

What about empty Eldar spirit stones?

 Psienesis wrote:

There aren't enough daemons sealed away for any of the Ruinous Powers to notice...

So what you are saying is that there is no example demonstrating if it is possible for a God to re-absorb its power from a sealed daemon, or if the daemon is cut off permanently. You just decided it works like that?

The Shadow in the Warp is just an interference field created by the wholly-alien minds of the Tyranids.

Says....you. IIRC, the exact nature of the Shadow in the Warp remains obscure. For all the Imperium knows, there's a dozen 'Shadow Generator genus' type Tyranids which do it deliberately, it's the effect of a third dimension beyond the materium or Warp or it's a quiescent gestalt warp entity in its own right.

The C'Tan are all sharded and/or dead. They aren't going to be making anything to shut the Warp off any time soon. Or, ever, really. If what the Deceiver said before the War in Heaven is true, the C'Tan got their asses handed to them by the Old Ones, which were a mortal race that lived in a calm Warp. Now? Now, the Warp is inhabited by actual gods and an infinite number of creatures, all of which are made of the stuff that is to the C'Tan what water was to the aliens out of Signs.

Ever is a very long time in the 40K verse.

Gork and Mork smashing the other 4 doesn't mean squat. Chaos Gods fight one another all the time. If those two took over the Warp, then it means the galaxy now belongs to the Orks, and the Imperium is in ashes, the Eldar have fled to the farthest reaches (or into the Webway), and the Orks are the only ones left to fight the Tyranids... which suits the Greenskins just fine.

So what you're saying is that Chaos always wins....unless another faction wins in which case, they're technically Chaos. Unless they're Necrons or Tyranids, which might not count.

Lots of maybes and half-definitions there, my friend. Enough to say that the faction 'Chaos' (the Big 4) does not always win, at best you're saying that 'The Warp' wins because it still exists, and there are warp entities in it affecting the galaxy.

Ever read the elishorn books?

If the ritual goes wrong or there unbound and full power they are a absolute nightmare to fight.

Even a "caged" one is massively powerful.
Its kinda like playing with fire. In a room full of flamable explosives.

So you're proposing that we take a Chaos god, an entity possessed of infinite cunning and malevolence, an entity that would like nothing more than to gain access to the material universe, and that we go ahead and bind the entirety of its essence within the fabric of said material universe?

Great idea! Can't see anything that could possibly go wrong with that. Proceed sir!

o what you are saying is that there is no example demonstrating if it is possible for a God to re-absorb its power from a sealed daemon, or if the daemon is cut off permanently. You just decided it works like that?

Yes, because it makes the most logical sense given how we are told that daemons are created in the first place. Nurgle crushes hundreds, possibly thousands, of Nurglings under his bulk every time he shifts around. Are we to assume that he somehow loses that energy? That would make no sense at all.

Says....you. IIRC, the exact nature of the Shadow in the Warp remains obscure.

Yes. Welcome to 40k. That is exactly how it works. There is no "canon" in this setting.

The fact that the Eldar are capable of doing it and performing sealings which last more or less indefinitely certainly indicates the possibility of being able to bind Greater Daemons in a way in which they cannot escape.

Ultimately, that's the problem. "More Or Less".
The one thing the warp resists is certainty. You can never say "this can never ever go wrong."

Even the Grey Knights are not 'totally incorruptible ever' - they just have never ever fallen to chaos.......yet. It's a ceaseless struggle that (fortunately for humanity) they keep winning, every day.

Even if you have a way of binding with absolute strength (probably), as noted you can't automate that process. Gloom Prisms are like Gellar fields - they do 'keep out' well enough but can't trap someone inside. You need sorcerors. Who need to know daemonic lore. And - at least in some proportion - will go insane and be corrupted by daemons whispering in their ears, because the one thing that's an absolute certainty is that when you start dealing with the immaterium with massed individuals, someone's sanity is going to crack.

Source for Tesseract devices suffering mechanical failure?

Not specifically tesseract devices, but Gloom Prisms and other warp shields - there are Necron worlds mentioned in - I think it's the daemon bit of Curse of the wulfen? - which talks about a tomb world being eaten from inside out by nurgle daemons.

If it's n an asteroid somewhere, it also removes any issues of containment if it does break free.

or accept they'd need to redo the binding every few centuries.

Yeah..... The Imperium's tried that on several occasions down through the centuries. The Quiet Order encountered by the Bloodquest, the Silent Order encountered by Aphrael Stern. As a rule it's not ended well.

The problem is that the moment you accept a need to maintain the bindings, you have to remember where you put the daemon, and have to go back there. Without anything going wrong en route, without cultists finding out where their god is imprisoned, and without anything hitching a ride back hidden in your subconscious.

And either you have a massive daemon-prison which gives you no possibility whatsoever (tm) of a catastrophic failure event, or else you have many separate prisons - which then means daemon-possessed rocks floating in many different corners of space, massively increasing the potential of someone who doesn't know what they are stumbling over one (possibly poked in the right direction by the prisoner's patron) whilst your attention is elsewhere.

So you're proposing that we take a Chaos god, an entity possessed of infinite cunning and malevolence, an entity that would like nothing more than to gain access to the material universe, and that we go ahead and bind the entirety of its essence within the fabric of said material universe?

Great idea! Can't see anything that could possibly go wrong with that. Proceed sir!

Don't worry. Nothing can possibly go wrong.
This? Oh, this is Inquisitor Weyland-Yutani. He'll be overseeing the programme's health and safety aspects.

locarno24 wrote:
Don't worry. Nothing can possibly go wrong.
This? Oh, this is Inquisitor Weyland-Yutani. He'll be overseeing the programme's health and safety aspects.

Take an exalt sir!

 Ketara wrote:
When it comes to sealing daemons into things, there's usually two factors involved: the strength of the sealing, and the strength of the sealed. A weak daemon sealed into a weapon is often bound endlessly with severely limited (or no) cognitive skills.

Dangerous assumption you make there. "endlessly".

Another assumption is that you can actually empty warp of daemons which nobody has actually proven...Could be that number of asteroids required to seal all would be more than there's atoms in the universum and not even then more than dip in the warp!

Psienesis wrote:
Yes, because it makes the most logical sense given how we are told that daemons are created in the first place. Nurgle crushes hundreds, possibly thousands, of Nurglings under his bulk every time he shifts around. Are we to assume that he somehow loses that energy? That would make no sense at all.

Absorbing the power of a daemon destroyed whilst present in the warp and unfettered, and absorbing the power of a daemon present within the materium and bound there are two very different kettles of fish. I don't see how you can extrapolate from one case to the other. Logically, it would be impossible for a Chaos God to just reach out and absorb the power back on the basis that the power being sealed in is the entire point of the binding. Otherwise, we're forced to assume that a Chaos God can just reach out, anytime, anywher,e and just break daemonic bidnings in the materium. Which runs directly counter to everything established regarding the warp. If they could do things like that, they'd never have needed Horus.

Ultimately, that's the problem. "More Or Less".
The one thing the warp resists is certainty. You can never say "this can never ever go wrong."

Certainly, but it would appear to be the case that it is possible to create a binding from which it is impossible to escape withour direct outside intervention. With the Black Pyramid, it was stated that the only reason there was a flaw at all was because the Eldar were attacked mid-rite, and even then, the flaw only became apparent every few thousand years.

Even if you have a way of binding with absolute strength (probably), as noted you can't automate that process. Gloom Prisms are like Gellar fields - they do 'keep out' well enough but can't trap someone inside. You need sorcerors. Who need to know daemonic lore. And - at least in some proportion - will go insane and be corrupted by daemons whispering in their ears, because the one thing that's an absolute certainty is that when you start dealing with the immaterium with massed individuals, someone's sanity is going to crack.

I'm not disagreeing with this. All I'm pointing out is that certain aspects of risk can be minimised. If untouchables operate the craft responsible for dropping off daemons, there's little risk of corruption. If a navy interdiction is in place, there's little chance of random people stumbling over it. If you put them on asteroids, there's no risk of civilians being affected, and if a breakout does occur, it can be isolated and resealed with minimal damage. If you seed daemons across multiple asteroids, you can ensure that no warp rift opens up.

There is always a risk something can go wrong, as I've repeatedly stated (which people seem to keep missing...). And odds are, it will. The name of the game though, is containment. If the goal here is a warp empty of malign essences, it's no biggie if a handful of them break out once in a while and need resealing, it's still infinitely preferable to a Universe where they're all free. To use an analogy, it doesn't matter if a handful of prisoners in a jail escape their cells every few years, so long as you can recapture them, and ensure the vast majority of dangerous inmates are still confined.

Source for Tesseract devices suffering mechanical failure?

Not specifically tesseract devices, but Gloom Prisms and other warp shields - there are Necron worlds mentioned in - I think it's the daemon bit of Curse of the wulfen? - which talks about a tomb world being eaten from inside out by nurgle daemons.

Interesting example. I wonder if Gloom Prisms are more akin to the Cadian Pylons/untouchables, or the Tesseract devices? There seems to be a split in how psychic-null effects operate, some are capable of just existing and projecting the effect, and others require mechanical operation. The prisms and tesseracts are both more on the mechanical side, yet the prism effect appears to be more akin to the untouchable one than the Tesseracts. Logic would dictate that Necrons wouldn't seal the C'Tan in something has the possibility of breaking down, but it also indicates that all devices can break.

I think it's probably impossible to tell at this stage.

Dangerous assumption you make there. "endlessly".

The Void Dragon on Mars would appear to indicate it's possible to seal something indefinitely, and there's a few examples within the fluff.

Another assumption is that you can actually empty warp of daemons which nobody has actually proven...Could be that number of asteroids required to seal all would be more than there's atoms in the universum and not even then more than dip in the warp!

This, is an extremely good and interesting point. So tack that onto the list of 'potential flaws' beyond whether or not the Imperium possesses sufficiently strong sealing techniques.

 Ketara wrote:

Logically ... Chaos

Logic doesn't work with Chaos.


Also, cuz I'm working right now, you say having a couple Daemons break out now and again is preferable? Wrong. Daemons need a major warp event to break into reality and maintain a form. If you give them a form (possess a person/rock) and give them the major warp event (having hundreds of daemon stones sounds a good way to do such a thing) then you give them the two things they need. I'd prefer to leave them all stuck in the Warp until enough corruption occurs to let them loose (in which case you purge the Imperium of heretics and send the GK in to fix the issue) than bring them all to the universe, where when they break free, they're probably extremely powerful and extremely pissed off, mostly likely at the person you bound them, ie, you.

Think of this.

The GK, the premier Daemonhunters of 40k, have a Daemon Prince's spirit bound within its own skull on their mantlepiece. To maintain that warding, they have a fethton of serfs chanting binding rituals. By fethton, I mean with 666 or 1000, can't remember which. By constant, I mean they have a bunch on reserve ready to take over when the old bunch collapse dead. If that's what it takes to bind just one powerful Daemon, how much would it take to bind a dozen? Let's face it, binding a hundred lesser Daemons is good going but a single Prince or Greater Daemon is infinitely more powerful than any lesser Daemon. And if they could take Daemon Lords and Daemon Primarchs off the board just like that, I doubt the GK would send a whole company (100 GK Terminators!) to fight Angron, and almost lose the whole lost, if they could just bind away Daemons like that. They haven't even been that successful with Tesseract Labyrinths, 5th Ed Codex says only a handful of lessers have been successfully captured.

 Deadshot wrote:

Logic doesn't work with Chaos.

It doesn't work with the abstract concept of 'Chaos'. It works perfectly well with the faction labelled 'Chaos' (trademark). The two should not be conflated.

Also, cuz I'm working right now, you say having a couple Daemons break out now and again is preferable? Wrong. Daemons need a major warp event to break into reality and maintain a form. If you give them a form (possess a person/rock) and give them the major warp event (having hundreds of daemon stones sounds a good way to do such a thing) then you give them the two things they need. I'd prefer to leave them all stuck in the Warp until enough corruption occurs to let them loose (in which case you purge the Imperium of heretics and send the GK in to fix the issue) than bring them all to the universe, where when they break free, they're probably extremely powerful and extremely pissed off, mostly likely at the person you bound them, ie, you.

I'd rather have a Great Unclean One stuck in a rock in the middle of nowhere bound to a laughable form than roaming the warp freely. Indeed, that's the very premise of this discussion. Our Unclean One can have a few dozen untouchables dropped on him and he'll either have to return the warp (for later resummoning and binding) or be rendered quiescent until a new binding can take place.

The GK, the premier Daemonhunters of 40k, have a Daemon Prince's spirit bound within its own skull on their mantlepiece. To maintain that warding, they have a fethton of serfs chanting binding rituals. By fethton, I mean with 666 or 1000, can't remember which. By constant, I mean they have a bunch on reserve ready to take over when the old bunch collapse dead. If that's what it takes to bind just one powerful Daemon, how much would it take to bind a dozen? Let's face it, binding a hundred lesser Daemons is good going but a single Prince or Greater Daemon is infinitely more powerful than any lesser Daemon. And if they could take Daemon Lords and Daemon Primarchs off the board just like that, I doubt the GK would send a whole company (100 GK Terminators!) to fight Angron, and almost lose the whole lost, if they could just bind away Daemons like that. They haven't even been that successful with Tesseract Labyrinths, 5th Ed Codex says only a handful of lessers have been successfully captured.

I've already acknowledged multiple times that whether the binding techniques of the Imperium are up to the job is questionable. I'm not entirely certain why you're reiterating it.

 Ketara wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Logic doesn't work with Chaos.

It doesn't work with the abstract concept of 'Chaos'. It works perfectly well with the faction labelled 'Chaos' (trademark). The two should not be conflated.

Also, cuz I'm working right now, you say having a couple Daemons break out now and again is preferable? Wrong. Daemons need a major warp event to break into reality and maintain a form. If you give them a form (possess a person/rock) and give them the major warp event (having hundreds of daemon stones sounds a good way to do such a thing) then you give them the two things they need. I'd prefer to leave them all stuck in the Warp until enough corruption occurs to let them loose (in which case you purge the Imperium of heretics and send the GK in to fix the issue) than bring them all to the universe, where when they break free, they're probably extremely powerful and extremely pissed off, mostly likely at the person you bound them, ie, you.

I'd rather have a Great Unclean One stuck in a rock in the middle of nowhere bound to a laughable form than roaming the warp freely. Indeed, that's the very premise of this discussion. Our Unclean One can have a few dozen untouchables dropped on him and he'll either have to return the warp (for later resummoning and binding) or be rendered quiescent until a new binding can take place.

The GK, the premier Daemonhunters of 40k, have a Daemon Prince's spirit bound within its own skull on their mantlepiece. To maintain that warding, they have a fethton of serfs chanting binding rituals. By fethton, I mean with 666 or 1000, can't remember which. By constant, I mean they have a bunch on reserve ready to take over when the old bunch collapse dead. If that's what it takes to bind just one powerful Daemon, how much would it take to bind a dozen? Let's face it, binding a hundred lesser Daemons is good going but a single Prince or Greater Daemon is infinitely more powerful than any lesser Daemon. And if they could take Daemon Lords and Daemon Primarchs off the board just like that, I doubt the GK would send a whole company (100 GK Terminators!) to fight Angron, and almost lose the whole lost, if they could just bind away Daemons like that. They haven't even been that successful with Tesseract Labyrinths, 5th Ed Codex says only a handful of lessers have been successfully captured.

I've already acknowledged multiple times that whether the binding techniques of the Imperium are up to the job is questionable. I'm not entirely certain why you're reiterating it.

Because you also mentioned the Eldar and Necron methods. I have cited the Necron methods, have not been successful for the GK, who know pretty much when and where a powerful Daemon will appear and are tooled up to fight him. Eldar are master runesmiths and psykers, but the GK have acquired their knowledge directly from The Emperor and Malcador, and spent about 10,000 learning, studying and fighting Daemons. I would expect they know as much about bindings as it is possible to know. If they best they can do is have a fethton of disciples chant themselves to death, then this topic is completely moot because its unobtainable.

Also, as I said, a Great Unclean One needs a form to enter the material realm. In the Warp he's pretty much harmless, he'll spend his days cooking up new plagues and raising his baby Nurglings and occassionally going to war against a rival Greater Daemon in the warp. He might munch a couple psykers souls but until he stumbles across an open pathway into the Imperium complete with powerful host psyker. Once you stick him in a rock or body, he's got everything he could ever need and he'll seize every opportunity to wreak havoc and unleash The Black Death v34.6b



To be completely frank, any attempt to bind Daemons on this scale would end up like a Dante's Inferno/Jurassic Park mashup, with you/the Inquisitor as Dr Hammond and the likes of me as Malcolm saying I told you so as I sprint away in terror from the unleashed monstrosities.

Another assumption is that you can actually empty warp of daemons which nobody has actually proven...Could be that number of asteroids required to seal all would be more than there's atoms in the universum and not even then more than dip in the warp!

Are there a finite number of daemons?

We don't - can't - know. We know there are a finite number of Khornate Greater Daemons at any one time, because the Khorne Daemonkin book tells us there are.

There are eight ranks, and eight at each rank below the one above (with the first rank serving Khorne directly). Which means there are just over nineteen million greater daemons of Khorne.

However - Khorne also seems able to pull more out of his bronze-armoured arse whenever the mood takes him; his response to Skarbrand's betrayal (aside from a truly epic case of throwing a broken toy across the room) was to create Anggrath, who was even bigger, scarier and more lethal. Plus there's reference to daemons moving up in rank, so that's more a case of the number of slots in the hierarchy than the number of daemons which could exist.

Our Unclean One can have a few dozen untouchables dropped on him and he'll either have to return the warp (for later resummoning and binding) or be rendered quiescent until a new binding can take place.

Again, very much a resources question. It depends on the number of untouchables and their strength relative to that of the greater daemon. Untouchables aren't a magic wand - they have a relative strength value, as does the potential psyker/daemon. There have been several cases where untouchables' 'negative potential' has been simply overwhelmed by a sufficiently powerful warp presence; Slyte in Ravenor burned out Ravenor's untouchable, Frauka, whilst Aphrael Stern was able to blow apart the skull of nothing less than a Culexus Assassin. Granted, the experience cost her, but it was possible; when you start talking about greater daemons it's something you need to bear in mind.

I'd rather have a Great Unclean One stuck in a rock in the middle of nowhere bound to a laughable form than roaming the warp freely.

If untouchables operate the craft responsible for dropping off daemons, there's little risk of corruption. If a navy interdiction is in place, there's little chance of random people stumbling over it. If you put them on asteroids, there's no risk of civilians being affected, and if a breakout does occur, it can be isolated and resealed with minimal damage. If you seed daemons across multiple asteroids, you can ensure that no warp rift opens up.

And I'd rather have the daemon stuck in the warp rather than loose in the materium. I don't think you can keep them locked up forever, but - for the sake of clarity - will ignore that argument. I'm not concerned about the imprisonment, I'm concerned about the summoning in the first place.

If something goes wrong, it will generally go wrong at a point where something is happening - which means during the summoning itself.

At which point you've got a warp breach, a greater daemon loose in reality, corruptible, non-untouchable mortal minds saturated with sanity-bending knowledge, and a way out of wherever you currently are (for the sorcerers after the binding was done) all in close proximity.

Granted, if it goes to script, you then bind them and lock them away. But it won't always go to script because nothing like that ever does. Not each time, every time. And to be meaningful you're doing it again and again until a point of failure. And whilst the momentary gap between 'summoned' and 'bound' is barely a thought, the more powerful the daemon the more of an issue it can be.

Especially when daemons decide to take matters into their own hands to screw with the 'great plan' - there are several documented cases in Black Library books and FFG RPGs of daemons 'switching places' such that the wrong daemon answers a summoning - with catastrophic results for the witless fool who confidently starts reciting the 'true name' of the being in front of them...




A greater daemon locked up in a box is better than one loose in the warp. That I will grant you - hence the Grey Knights' similar approach.

But by the same token, one stuck in the warp is better than one loose in reality who wouldn't have had access to this plane of existence in the first place if someone hadn't just invited him here and provided both a host form and a light snack on arrival.

 Ketara wrote:
The Void Dragon on Mars would appear to indicate it's possible to seal something indefinitely, and there's a few examples within the fluff.

How can it be proven that it WILL last indefinitely seeing time is still going forward? Okay it has lasted this long. Who's saying it won't break IN FUTURE? Titanic was held unsinkable. I'm sure sealers of void dragon considers their seals unbreakable as well.

Also Void Dragon ain't daemon...It's still part of THIS universum and thus obeys laws in this side. Warp has it's own laws.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

I've already acknowledged multiple times that whether the binding techniques of the Imperium are up to the job is questionable. I'm not entirely certain why you're reiterating it.

Because you also mentioned the Eldar and Necron methods. I have cited the Necron methods, have not been successful for the GK, who know pretty much when and where a powerful Daemon will appear and are tooled up to fight him. Eldar are master runesmiths and psykers, but the GK have acquired their knowledge directly from The Emperor and Malcador, and spent about 10,000 learning, studying and fighting Daemons. I would expect they know as much about bindings as it is possible to know. If they best they can do is have a fethton of disciples chant themselves to death, then this topic is completely moot because its unobtainable.

There's a minor, yet significant qualification you've missed there. The Grey Knights acquired their knowledge from Malcador & co. (I suspect the Emperor is too schizophrenic to undertake much instruction), but that does not mean that a) they were given all the knowledge the teachers possessed, and b) that the knowledge their teachers possessed was complete. The Emperor and his disciples have shown a demonstrable reluctance before about teaching anyone anything to do with the Warp, look at the fall of Magnus or the knowledge possessed by Horus prior to his near-death. The fact he was trying to break open the webway also implies that in many regards, his knowledge and skill was inferior to that of the Eldar.

The logical result to be concluded is that the Emperor is like a warp journeyman instructing an apprentice whilst the real master craftsmen stand by. The fact that greater sealing techniques exist (and the Eldar have demonstrated that time and time again) means that it is possible for humans to learn those techniques. It would take much study and experimentation, but if the Eldar can do it, so can humanity eventually (provided it dedicates sufficient resources and time).

Also, as I said, a Great Unclean One needs a form to enter the material realm. In the Warp he's pretty much harmless, he'll spend his days cooking up new plagues and raising his baby Nurglings and occassionally going to war against a rival Greater Daemon in the warp. He might munch a couple psykers souls but until he stumbles across an open pathway into the Imperium complete with powerful host psyker. Once you stick him in a rock or body, he's got everything he could ever need and he'll seize every opportunity to wreak havoc and unleash The Black Death v34.6b

From his lonely asteroid in the middle of nowhere surrounded by nothing. I'm sure the carbon atoms will be very impressed.

locarno24 wrote: Again, very much a resources question. It depends on the number of untouchables and their strength relative to that of the greater daemon. Untouchables aren't a magic wand - they have a relative strength value, as does the potential psyker/daemon. There have been several cases where untouchables' 'negative potential' has been simply overwhelmed by a sufficiently powerful warp presence; Slyte in Ravenor burned out Ravenor's untouchable, Frauka, whilst Aphrael Stern was able to blow apart the skull of nothing less than a Culexus Assassin. Granted, the experience cost her, but it was possible; when you start talking about greater daemons it's something you need to bear in mind.

Oh, certainly. I believe Bequin in Eisenhorn got burnt out by the sentience of a Chaos titan or somesuch. But IIRC, the power of untouchables multiplies the more you place within a certain area (the bubbles combine to make a slightly bigger one). If you could throw enough of them together, you should be able to shut down even a greater daemon. You only need enough of them, after all, to deal with the occasional breakout/greater daemon skulking on his asteroid.

Frankly, I'm surprised the Inquisition hasn't tried to engineer the creation of untouchables themselves.

A greater daemon locked up in a box is better than one loose in the warp. That I will grant you - hence the Grey Knights' similar approach.

But by the same token, one stuck in the warp is better than one loose in reality who wouldn't have had access to this plane of existence in the first place if someone hadn't just invited him here and provided both a host form and a light snack on arrival.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say. But it's just about feasible/plausible enough that I could see an Inquisitor trying it.

tneva82 wrote:How can it be proven that it WILL last indefinitely seeing time is still going forward? Okay it has lasted this long. Who's saying it won't break IN FUTURE? Titanic was held unsinkable. I'm sure sealers of void dragon considers their seals unbreakable as well.

Also Void Dragon ain't daemon...It's still part of THIS universum and thus obeys laws in this side. Warp has it's own laws.

Fair point on the 'forever' aspect, but I'd be inclined to think that barring outside intervention/mechanical failure, there's no evidence to show a sealing degrades with time. As these things exist outside of normal physics, it's not necessarily impossible for a sealing to last forever, much like the daemons themselves.

With regards to the Dragon, both C'Tan and Greater Daemons can both be bound by Tesseract devices, which indicates some common ground between the two when it comes to sealing.

 Ketara wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

I've already acknowledged multiple times that whether the binding techniques of the Imperium are up to the job is questionable. I'm not entirely certain why you're reiterating it.

Because you also mentioned the Eldar and Necron methods. I have cited the Necron methods, have not been successful for the GK, who know pretty much when and where a powerful Daemon will appear and are tooled up to fight him. Eldar are master runesmiths and psykers, but the GK have acquired their knowledge directly from The Emperor and Malcador, and spent about 10,000 learning, studying and fighting Daemons. I would expect they know as much about bindings as it is possible to know. If they best they can do is have a fethton of disciples chant themselves to death, then this topic is completely moot because its unobtainable.

There's a minor, yet significant qualification you've missed there. The Grey Knights acquired their knowledge from Malcador & co. (I suspect the Emperor is too schizophrenic to undertake much instruction), but that does not mean that a) they were given all the knowledge the teachers possessed, and b) that the knowledge their teachers possessed was complete. The Emperor and his disciples have shown a demonstrable reluctance before about teaching anyone anything to do with the Warp, look at the fall of Magnus or the knowledge possessed by Horus prior to his near-death. The fact he was trying to break open the webway also implies that in many regards, his knowledge and skill was inferior to that of the Eldar.

The logical result to be concluded is that the Emperor is like a warp journeyman instructing an apprentice whilst the real master craftsmen stand by. The fact that greater sealing techniques exist (and the Eldar have demonstrated that time and time again) means that it is possible for humans to learn those techniques. It would take much study and experimentation, but if the Eldar can do it, so can humanity eventually (provided it dedicates sufficient resources and time).

Also, as I said, a Great Unclean One needs a form to enter the material realm. In the Warp he's pretty much harmless, he'll spend his days cooking up new plagues and raising his baby Nurglings and occassionally going to war against a rival Greater Daemon in the warp. He might munch a couple psykers souls but until he stumbles across an open pathway into the Imperium complete with powerful host psyker. Once you stick him in a rock or body, he's got everything he could ever need and he'll seize every opportunity to wreak havoc and unleash The Black Death v34.6b

From his lonely asteroid in the middle of nowhere surrounded by nothing. I'm sure the carbon atoms will be very impressed.

locarno24 wrote: Again, very much a resources question. It depends on the number of untouchables and their strength relative to that of the greater daemon. Untouchables aren't a magic wand - they have a relative strength value, as does the potential psyker/daemon. There have been several cases where untouchables' 'negative potential' has been simply overwhelmed by a sufficiently powerful warp presence; Slyte in Ravenor burned out Ravenor's untouchable, Frauka, whilst Aphrael Stern was able to blow apart the skull of nothing less than a Culexus Assassin. Granted, the experience cost her, but it was possible; when you start talking about greater daemons it's something you need to bear in mind.

Oh, certainly. I believe Bequin in Eisenhorn got burnt out by the sentience of a Chaos titan or somesuch. But IIRC, the power of untouchables multiplies the more you place within a certain area (the bubbles combine to make a slightly bigger one). If you could throw enough of them together, you should be able to shut down even a greater daemon. You only need enough of them, after all, to deal with the occasional breakout/greater daemon skulking on his asteroid.

Frankly, I'm surprised the Inquisition hasn't tried to engineer the creation of untouchables themselves.

A greater daemon locked up in a box is better than one loose in the warp. That I will grant you - hence the Grey Knights' similar approach.

But by the same token, one stuck in the warp is better than one loose in reality who wouldn't have had access to this plane of existence in the first place if someone hadn't just invited him here and provided both a host form and a light snack on arrival.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say. But it's just about feasible/plausible enough that I could see an Inquisitor trying it.

tneva82 wrote:How can it be proven that it WILL last indefinitely seeing time is still going forward? Okay it has lasted this long. Who's saying it won't break IN FUTURE? Titanic was held unsinkable. I'm sure sealers of void dragon considers their seals unbreakable as well.

Also Void Dragon ain't daemon...It's still part of THIS universum and thus obeys laws in this side. Warp has it's own laws.

Fair point on the 'forever' aspect, but I'd be inclined to think that barring outside intervention/mechanical failure, there's no evidence to show a sealing degrades with time. As these things exist outside of normal physics, it's not necessarily impossible for a sealing to last forever, much like the daemons themselves.

With regards to the Dragon, both C'Tan and Greater Daemons can both be bound by Tesseract devices, which indicates some common ground between the two when it comes to sealing.

Not to sound (passive-)aggressive with this but I don't think we'll agree on this point so I'm content to simply read for a while. You make decent arguments, just not ones I can find reasonable or agree with. Again, I referenced Jurassic Park. Regardless of any precautions you take to secure those dinosaurs in their pens, eventually a hurricane comes along and then you have a T-Rex on the loose eating the visitors. Except its actually a Daemon sacrificing your eternal soul to be devoured by a god but the basic premise is the same.