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So I'm not a big Eldar buff. I played the Dawn of War games and aside from that haven't really read much about that sort of thing.

Anyone have any good Eldar v. Imperium stories?

Craftworld or Harlequin, preferably.

Path of the Eldar is worth a look, culminates in the Sons of Orar leading an invasion of Alaitoc but has several other instances of Eldar vs Imperium.

However at least in my opinion the battle for Alaitoc is a terrible representation of Eldar. It has the numbers all wrong, drastically underestimating the Eldar population of the craftworld to be in the thousands rather than the millions, woefully underselling a Phoenix Lord and generally making it look like the craftworld couldn't foresee anything of use under a flimsy pretense. I'd say only Path of the Ranger stands out in the trilogy as much good, due to it giving a good approximation of Eldar Corsairs and a good few scenes with Harlequins being epic.

The last book in the Nightlord paints Eldar rather well, as the Nightlords being hunted for a change. And it makes a Phoenix Lord look rather deadly indeed. However it is Chaos Marines instead of Loyalists. Honestly there aren't many good Imperium vs Eldar stories, due to GW bias that Space Marines should always win. The best stories I've found where in the codexes themselves, specifically the Dark kin variety. The Haemonculi have some great stories against Space Marines and Guardsmen as does Lady Malys when trying to steal an STC from a heavily guarded fortress world.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
However at least in my opinion the battle for Alaitoc is a terrible representation of Eldar. It has the numbers all wrong, drastically underestimating the Eldar population of the craftworld to be in the thousands rather than the millions, woefully underselling a Phoenix Lord and generally making it look like the craftworld couldn't foresee anything of use under a flimsy pretense. I'd say only Path of the Ranger stands out in the trilogy as much good, due to it giving a good approximation of Eldar Corsairs and a good few scenes with Harlequins being epic.

The last book in the Nightlord paints Eldar rather well, as the Nightlords being hunted for a change. And it makes a Phoenix Lord look rather deadly indeed. However it is Chaos Marines instead of Loyalists. Honestly there aren't many good Imperium vs Eldar stories, due to GW bias that Space Marines should always win. The best stories I've found where in the codexes themselves, specifically the Dark kin variety. The Haemonculi have some great stories against Space Marines and Guardsmen as does Lady Malys when trying to steal an STC from a heavily guarded fortress world.

Totally agree about the dark eldar having the most interesting interactions with humans. They kidnap some Space Woof initiates and turn them into body horror monsters, for instance. And then there's the way Malys uses the orks as a hammer blow against a heavily fortified imperial world. Actually, there's that full-spread page in the current dark eldar codex that gives you a blow-by-blow of a Poisoned Tongue ( so Lady Malys again) attack on an imperial world. How they time everything perfectly to leave the humans confused and off-balance.

I disagree with you a bit about the Path series. While I can't attest to the "proper" population of a craftworld, I thought the majority of the book did a pretty good job of giving the various factions power levels in-keeping with my own head canon. Aspect warriors will shred guardsmen but still have to worry about losses. Eldar in their element can devastate a greater ork force through careful planning and ambushes, but casualties will happen. Space marines are gnarly enough to worry even aspect warriors, but eldar certainly aren't defenseless against them. A certain Phoenix Lord gets smacked down without much effort , but I feel that's mostly because that particular book was winding down, and they wanted a certain character to put on said Phoenix Lord's helmet by the end of the book. So blame it on a rush job, basically.


@ the OP: In general, the eldar prefer to avoid direct confrontations with the imperium. They either strike with such swift and overwhelming force that it doesn't make for a very good story, or else they manipulate other factions into doing the large-scale fighting. One of the wars for Armageddon was the result of the eldar steering orks towards the imperium, for instance.

Many of the interactions between eldar and the imperium in the Black Library stories tend to be small-scale, and they're in alliance about as often as they're at each others' throats. Eldar and marines team up to stop curiously powerful ork incursions in Overfiend, for instance. In Gods of Mars, eldar team up with a Rogue Trader's buddies to deal with some wonky mechanicus shenanigans.

Hmm... Oh! There's a short story in one of the various compilations out there (I forget which one) in which we get to see some guardsmen taking on the eldar in force. Most of what we see involves guardsmen keeping their heads down in a bunker while striking scorpions start picking them off.

EDIT: Harlequins don't really engage in massed warfare. Their codex points out that it was very uncommon of them to come together in large groups until recently. Usually, stories about them focus on a single troupe of them doing stuff. I believe Atlas Infernal has them chasing down an inquisitor. They appear briefly in one of my favorite stories from Fear the Alien, but there isn't much in the way of direct conflict there. They appear in Path of the Ranger, but their anti-imperium presence essentially amounts to facilitating a meeting between several characters.

Harlequins make a pretty epic appearance in Throneworld of the Beast Arises series, fighting Imperial forces.

Don't know too many which haven't already been listed. There's a lot of 'brief mention' stuff about it, like Blood Nebula, Biel-Tan taking on elements of 8 Chapters and 2 Fleets and winning but its never really that well-detailed.

I'm waiting to hear how this Death Masque plays out though. My expectations are not high.

Preist of Mars trillogy, not large scale battle but ti does have eldar vs guard, black templar's and AdMech, the Farseer's actions are head-desk worthy but overall a good read.

danp164 wrote:
Preist of Mars trillogy, not large scale battle but ti does have eldar vs guard, black templar's and AdMech, the Farseer's actions are head-desk worthy but overall a good read.

What's wrong with the Farseer? The usual issue of the plot killed their brain?

pm713 wrote:

danp164 wrote:
Preist of Mars trillogy, not large scale battle but ti does have eldar vs guard, black templar's and AdMech, the Farseer's actions are head-desk worthy but overall a good read.

What's wrong with the Farseer? The usual issue of the plot killed their brain?

With the vaunted power of phsycic foreknowledge and prophecy even then every action she took made the situation worse, which would have been Ok if she observed things had gone wrong and tried to backtrack along the path to fix them, but she carried on regardless and for what? children that didn't exist and her foreknowledge assured her would never exist. Christ even the eldar with her started asking what use she actually was, arguably her actions killed more than Telok did.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
However at least in my opinion the battle for Alaitoc is a terrible representation of Eldar. It has the numbers all wrong, drastically underestimating the Eldar population of the craftworld to be in the thousands rather than the millions, woefully underselling a Phoenix Lord and generally making it look like the craftworld couldn't foresee anything of use under a flimsy pretense. I'd say only Path of the Ranger stands out in the trilogy as much good, due to it giving a good approximation of Eldar Corsairs and a good few scenes with Harlequins being epic.

The last book in the Nightlord paints Eldar rather well, as the Nightlords being hunted for a change. And it makes a Phoenix Lord look rather deadly indeed. However it is Chaos Marines instead of Loyalists. Honestly there aren't many good Imperium vs Eldar stories, due to GW bias that Space Marines should always win. The best stories I've found where in the codexes themselves, specifically the Dark kin variety. The Haemonculi have some great stories against Space Marines and Guardsmen as does Lady Malys when trying to steal an STC from a heavily guarded fortress world.

Personally I found Path of the Warrior to be the better of the 3 books, but I agree with you that the invasion of Alaitoc was badly done overall, yet the description of a Phantom Titan and Cobra bombarding a Space Marine armoured coloumn with Distortian and Sonic Lance weapons to be awesome. Best part though was the attack on an Imperial compound to retrieve a chaos tainted artifact.

It's been a while since I've read through the thing, but Doom of Mymeara has a pretty decent story running through of amassed Eldar forces (from Craftworlds Mymeara and Alaitoc as well as some corairs) assaulting the backwater ice planet Betalis III. Defenders are an even more rag-tag assortment of IG forces pulled in to defend the planet, eventually reinforced by Space Wolves near the end.


Either way, the stuff with the IG kind of plays out like cat-and-mouse although it is often uncertain who is hunting who, and the beginning does seem to echo what one would think the beginning of an engagement with Eldar would look like.

I had fun with it, but it is a full Codex Supplement Imperial Armor book, so if all you are after is the fluff, it can be a bit expensive. I collect and play Eldar, so the book was a must-have for me. I was just very happy with the story included therein.

Also, although I have not read it yet, Black Library recently released Asurmen, which I assume follows the Phoenix Lord through... something or other. Has anyone read that yet?

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
It's been a while since I've read through the thing, but Doom of Mymeara has a pretty decent story running through of amassed Eldar forces (from Craftworlds Mymeara and Alaitoc as well as some corairs) assaulting the backwater ice planet Betalis III. Defenders are an even more rag-tag assortment of IG forces pulled in to defend the planet, eventually reinforced by Space Wolves near the end.

Spoiler:

Unlike most other 40k fluff, neither side actually loses this engagement. Both are bloodied and suffer losses, but both withdraw before some war-ending cataclysm can happen. This is generally facilitated by the Eldar's overall goal being to recover something instead of just take the planet.

A few other readers say the ending is somewhat anti-climactic since there is no crazy final battle, but from my perspective, it made a lot of sense and was still pretty satisfying what with an Inquisitor chasing what basically amounts to the Eldar recovery team.

Either way, the stuff with the IG kind of plays out like cat-and-mouse although it is often uncertain who is hunting who, and the beginning does seem to echo what one would think the beginning of an engagement with Eldar would look like.

I had fun with it, but it is a full Codex Supplement Imperial Armor book, so if all you are after is the fluff, it can be a bit expensive. I collect and play Eldar, so the book was a must-have for me. I was just very happy with the story included therein.

Also, although I have not read it yet, Black Library recently released Asurmen, which I assume follows the Phoenix Lord through... something or other. Has anyone read that yet?

I have. It gives us a view of pre-fall Eldar society and how Asurmen came to be, while also showing a battle in the present between Eldar and chaos-worshipping humans,culminating in a fight between Asurmen and a Daemon Prince(ss). It's not really what the OP is after, sadly.

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
It's been a while since I've read through the thing, but Doom of Mymeara has a pretty decent story running through of amassed Eldar forces (from Craftworlds Mymeara and Alaitoc as well as some corairs) assaulting the backwater ice planet Betalis III. Defenders are an even more rag-tag assortment of IG forces pulled in to defend the planet, eventually reinforced by Space Wolves near the end.

Spoiler:

Unlike most other 40k fluff, neither side actually loses this engagement. Both are bloodied and suffer losses, but both withdraw before some war-ending cataclysm can happen. This is generally facilitated by the Eldar's overall goal being to recover something instead of just take the planet.

A few other readers say the ending is somewhat anti-climactic since there is no crazy final battle, but from my perspective, it made a lot of sense and was still pretty satisfying what with an Inquisitor chasing what basically amounts to the Eldar recovery team.

Either way, the stuff with the IG kind of plays out like cat-and-mouse although it is often uncertain who is hunting who, and the beginning does seem to echo what one would think the beginning of an engagement with Eldar would look like.

I had fun with it, but it is a full Codex Supplement Imperial Armor book, so if all you are after is the fluff, it can be a bit expensive. I collect and play Eldar, so the book was a must-have for me. I was just very happy with the story included therein.

Also, although I have not read it yet, Black Library recently released Asurmen, which I assume follows the Phoenix Lord through... something or other. Has anyone read that yet?

Honestly, I hate the fluff in Doom of Mymeara, at least the parts that concern the major engagements. I just find it really hard to believe that the full Warhosts of 2 large Craftworlds and 3 Corsair fleets was effectively beaten (and thats certainly how the story reads) by a badly underprepared and equipped PDF, a Guard army that was at half strength and missing most of it's heavy armour 9and had to eventually commandere a bunch of old and outdated stuff from Beatelis IV), the Elysians who weren't even used, the Legio Gryffonics and Space Wolves who's contribution to the story felt like it was written by the worst kind of fanboy.

The worst part was where a couple of Reavers and a few Warhounds fought off a pair of Phantoms and their Revanent escorts by letting them run circles around them, pure bs.

 Imateria wrote:

Honestly, I hate the fluff in Doom of Mymeara, at least the parts that concern the major engagements. I just find it really hard to believe that the full Warhosts of 2 large Craftworlds and 3 Corsair fleets was effectively beaten (and thats certainly how the story reads) by a badly underprepared and equipped PDF, a Guard army that was at half strength and missing most of it's heavy armour 9and had to eventually commandere a bunch of old and outdated stuff from Beatelis IV), the Elysians who weren't even used, the Legio Gryffonics and Space Wolves who's contribution to the story felt like it was written by the worst kind of fanboy.

The worst part was where a couple of Reavers and a few Warhounds fought off a pair of Phantoms and their Revanent escorts by letting them run circles around them, pure bs.

At this point, that is all I have come to expect of IoM stories, and Doom of Mymeara is sadly no exception. With the entire thing written from the prespective of IoM, just getting a few bits of relatively true to form Eldar is exceedingly surprising. And that is not including Space Marines, especially Space Wolves. Whenever Space Marines show up, I kind of just take it as fan boy writer cannot resist the temptation to show off just how badass he thinks marines are... although to be honest, I kind of have this overall feeling that the Space Marine BS might stem from the upper hierarchy of GW itself. Since they are generally inept and fething LOVE Space Marines, I could definitely see them getting an original and being all "Hey! The Space Marines (or IoM) are not showing off how badass they are enough! Fix It!"

Honestly, even the Path series read that way to me. IoM hilariously overpowered except in small isolated circumstances, and Space Marines just a "feth that" button. I was generally ok with the first book of the series, but the third one. Garbage.


And I hate Space Wolves. One big "I can do whatever the feth I want because I am awesome and the rest of everyone sucks." Everything of them I have ever come across is fan boy drivel.

 Imateria wrote:

Spoiler:

I'll admit that the part with the Inquisitor trying to stop Bar-Anarath from resurecting Irylith was brilliant though, as was the start of the book in describing the opennign stages of the Eldar preparing an invasion.

Yeah, those parts are most of what I remember of the fluff, and I agree they are freaking awesome. So that might be skewing my opinion of the overall a bit. Like I said, it's been a while.

Some parts of Mymeara and the Path books seemed alright to me. Even some of the Space Wolf stuff was okay.

So there's a FW book where the IG does not get totally punched in the gut? Nice, read some more IA books before you mention IOM bias

@Bobthehero: There's like, what, 7 campaigns detailed through the Imperial Armour books? Of which there are two draws, two defeats and two victories for the Imperium.

Shall I list the victories of the Imperium? It feels unnecessary but if you want the data I can provide it.

Honestly, acting as if there isn't a disproportionate focus on Imperium victories, or a preponderance of them, just baffles me. I play the Imperium but I'd never deny that my faction receives far more spotlight, attention and favour in the narrative than any other faction.

EDIT: Also your logic is just weird; "Hey there's this one set of books in which the Imperium doesn't overwhelmingly win all the time, this instantly means there is no bias, all problems solved" the IA books represent a tiny number of battles and major conflicts, minute, compared to the wider fluff. I'll happily admit they're more balanced, I enjoy a lot of them, but in no way does that somehow instantly reverse bias in the wider narrative.

I mean what you've said amounts to; "The Imperium doesn't win all the IA battles hence your argument is invalid," how does that make any sense?

The problem with the Mymeara IA book is the Eldar armies didn't really fight that intelligently. If you have a fast but relatively fragile force you don't go charging straight at the sturdier enemy and slam into the proverbial wall...repeatedly. For a race that is supposedly dying (at least on the galactic scale), they were sure acting like generic cannon fodder mooks charging in, to be shredded. And of course, the Marines looked good saving the Guard. It would have been nice to have the reverse for example. Now I know the book said the Eldar real objective was to resurrect the Phoenix Lord and they accomplished that, so the Eldar also claimed victory but the sheer number of Eldar casualties seems incredibly out of character for the Eldar. Wouldn't all that force have been better spent in one massive surprise strike at the real target facility which the Imperium didn't know was a real target? All the Eldar preliminary attacks elsewhere did was to draw an Imperial response, and the book did not do a good job showing them drawing off Imperials from the facility (which I suppose is the handwaving rationale given).

Sure the Eldar don't have to win all the time, but they should lose in a manner that does not require them to be idiots. The battle for Iyanden was one example of GW doing it right. The Eldar win battle after battle both in space and later on Iyanden, but they are ground down in a war of attrition.

Really that should be how Eldar of any stripe are portrayed. They should be hitting very hard and giving as good or better than they get, but if they lose it should be through attrition. Eldar Scorpions can cut their way effortlessly through Guardsmen faster than the human eye can follow, Fire Dragons intuitively pinpoint the weak points of the heaviest enemy war machines and they explode into molten fragments, and Eldar Warlocks and Farseers should weave mystically through hails of fire. Their Windriders run rings around the slower lumbering Imperial Guard formations. Regiments blunder around in confusion as Eldar Raners pick off officers...Yet in the end the Guard can simply cross off entire regiments the way they expend ammunition and can keep fielding walls of infantry and squadrons of tanks long after the Eldar run out of ammunition or their sword arms tire. The Eldar can win individual battles but still lose the bigger war as the noose tightens and attrition mounts. That way all factions can look good without one side having to be made to be deliberately idiotic and foolish in order to lose. The Eldar are elite in 40K, and better than baseline humanity (the characteristics profile shows it), but humanity has numbers and that has a quality of its own.

@Iracundus: It sounds lovely and agreeable what you say I just doubt it will ever materialize. The Eldar in particular, despite being based heavily off a fighting style of usually only picking fights you can win, have an absolutely horrendous win-loss ratio; out of 25 battles in the fluff against the Imperium Craftworld Eldar win only 7 and lose 18. That's less than half and doesn't include 30k battles featuring Eldar which they always lose.

It becomes frustrating to me, in a story, when some factions are essentially pointless because their defining feature is losing to make others look good. Like the entire Craftworld Eldar faction are an Avatar of Khaine-equivalent.

Eldrad's a good example, I can't take him seriously at all. Beyond Ghazghkull he can't seem to achieve anything of much import or detail. He's vaunted as the greatest Seer in Eldar History but other than his manipulation of Ghazghkull Ulthwe virtually never succeeds at anything. Since Death Masque will surely conclude with Eldrad losing to Artemis it just makes this even harder for me to swallow since, essentially, the greatest Seer in Eldar History is going to be beat by a single Death Watch Captain, not even a Watchmaster!

If it does happen I think I will just stop investing in Warhammer's fluff. I'll still play with friends and family, it is fun and I like the appearance of many miniatures, but if the Eldar's greatest Seer cannot even defeat a officer of the Deathwatch I feel a bit like there's no point even caring for any faction but the Imperium. Which I begin to fear is the goal of the current fluff. -Rant over.

I am withholding any judgment until we see for sure what the outcome of this Death Masque release is. It may be balanced/inconclusive if this is the first step in a storyline/timeline advance. I do hope they don't do something like Eldar defeat and then later try to say "But that was the Eldar plan all along. It was a ritual suicide to awaken Ynnead".

I would say the real issue with constant portrayal of final Imperial victory in campaigns is generating a RL player expectation that this would be the case if it ever came to a real life game or a worldwide campaign. I saw some of that mentality of "If we didn't win, it must have been cheating" during the old Eye of Terror worldwide campaign in 2002. A few years earlier I encountered the same in a rigged pro-Imperial tabletop scenario at a GW store where the Space Marines (using a customized list) just sat still and expected the Tyranids (using a store given default army) to just charge frontally at the Imperial prepared defenses to be slaughtered. When instead the Tyranids rolled the weak flank, collapsed the Imperial line, then wiped out the Marines entirely, the GW staff and Imperial player reset the scenario and added even more Imperial advantages claiming that "if it had been for real, Marines wouldn't have lost".

To be fair, regarding Eldrad, he's the Eldar's greatest *seer*. Not combat officer, unlike the vaunted Artemis, who is regarded as a very competent combat officer.

I'd see the main strength of Eldrad, and the Eldar race generally, as being able to avoid conflict and make other factions fight instead and neutralise eachother. If we were going by that logic, the Eldar should rarely show up in battles, there should be far more focus on Ork/IG or renegades/IG fights, with Daemons, CSM and SM taking a step back from the spotlight.

@Iracundus: Fair enough, I'm being hasty, and like you I should wait to see what is actually written. Apologies.

I just have very little faith in GW producing fluff which gives any faction other than the Imperium impressive victories against the Imperium and that...honestly bores me.

It just begins to dilute my interest in the fluff side, which has nice touches, but the relentless "Marine wins" over and over begins to wear on me when I expect the leaders of other factions, like Ghazhgkull, Eldrad and such to also be impressive in their own rights. But really...those two in particular are depressingly bad at winning compared to the likes of Dante, Helbrecht, Calgar or Azrael.

But I'll wait till my brother gets Death Masque and read it, or till I see spoilers somewhere. I should remember not to be hasty.

@Sgt Smudge: That'd be fine except Eldrad's been described as a genius war leader before too. A lot. Which makes sense since this is a war game and the idea is that the important characters are the major War Leaders.

Also Artemis is a Combat Officer. That's it. He's not even close to the best inside his own organization, who aren't even close to the best within their own faction.

Eldrad is literally the Calgar of the Craftworld Eldar Faction, their big luminary of the narrative. Imagine if Logan Grimnar lost to a competent Ork Warleader like Badrukk...I don't think Games Workshop would ever allow that to happen.

As for the Eldar's strengths; to bad that basically never happens except for Ghazghkull (Eldrad's one big success). Ulthwe intervenes lots of times (and gets its ass kicked every time, by Space Marines in each case except one where it is the Cadians).

Eldrad's pretty much a complete failure and losing to a Captain of the Death Watch kind of will cement that (if it happens). If the Eldar's wisest leader and greatest Seer cannot overcome a competent Captain of the Deathwatch then that is pretty majorly depressing for how low-tier Eldar intelligence must be.

GW thematically has traditionally been focused on brawn rather than magic/intellect. One only has to read all its stories of the devious magic user getting come-uppance at the hand of the muscle-bound warrior that smashes his way through all attempts at wily deception. The number of stories where the reverse happens is comparatively much less. The "hulk smash" macho themes of Khorne and Space Marines easily appeal to male fantasies of omnipotence and empowerment.

 Anemone wrote:
@Sgt Smudge: That'd be fine except Eldrad's been described as a genius war leader before too. A lot. Which makes sense since this is a war game and the idea is that the important characters are the major War Leaders.

Doesn't mean he'll be a good fighter though. Much like Creed, who is also a tactical genius, he might not be a beatstick like Artemis is made out to be.

Also Artemis is a Combat Officer. That's it. He's not even close to the best inside his own organization, who aren't even close to the best within their own faction.

Well, the Deathwatch are described with a good consistency about they are some of the best Space Marines from the Chapters. Therefore, considering Artemis is a named Character, it's worth considering he will be a cut above a normal Deathwatch Captain, who will be better than a normal SM Captain, who are meant to be some of the best Space Marines in the Imperium.

Eldrad is literally the Calgar of the Craftworld Eldar Faction, their big luminary of the narrative. Imagine if Logan Grimnar lost to a competent Ork Warleader like Badrukk...I don't think Games Workshop would ever allow that to happen.

Except Eldrad is NOT a combat expert like Calgar or Grimnar. It just so happens that Calgar and Grimnar are also tactical leaders too (cue SM Mary Sue leaders). Eldrad is the main Eldar named character, but it doesn't make him a combat monster. Rather, he is the main Eldar character because he best embodies what the Eldar are: psychic, plotting, evasive.

As for the Eldar's strengths; to bad that basically never happens except for Ghazghkull (Eldrad's one big success). Ulthwe intervenes lots of times (and gets its ass kicked every time, by Space Marines in each case except one where it is the Cadians).

Which I'll agree with. It should happen far more, with Eldar manipulating other races and rarely engaging in fights, which would make cases like Hive Fleet Kraken and the Invasion of Craftworld Idhaerae to be the monumental events they're meant to be.

Eldrad's pretty much a complete failure and losing to a Captain of the Death Watch kind of will cement that (if it happens). If the Eldar's wisest leader and greatest Seer cannot overcome a competent Captain of the Deathwatch then that is pretty majorly depressing for how low-tier Eldar intelligence must be.

Or how the Eldar are not a race designed to be in combats with the Imperium's elite alienhunters. Eldar are meant to avoid combat, as a dying race, and instead rely on their manipulation and stealth to avoid combats to save lives. Again, if Eldrad was *that* wise, he'd avoid risk and psychically communicate from the Craftworld.

He's a seer, not a fighter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:
GW thematically has traditionally been focused on brawn rather than magic/intellect. One only has to read all its stories of the devious magic user getting come-uppance at the hand of the muscle-bound warrior that smashes his way through all attempts at wily deception. The number of stories where the reverse happens is comparatively much less.

This.

@Iracundus: Oh, I get that, I get that completely. I was never sure if it was just my being female that made me dislike it but then I meant several other people who disliked it which made me feel better about that.

But I don't really know what to say to that. It's true but I wish it wasn't? As I've said a lot I just want ALL factions, since we're all having fun and playing with them, to get more shine.

I just don't think its ever going to even come close to happening and Death Masque makes me fear that Craftworld Eldar, the species who can least afford it, will continue to be the narrative's primary punching bag for some inexplicable reason.

I guess I feel a bit sad on my older brother's behalf, cause he plays Eldar, and so I just wish my conversations with him about fluff could be a bit more fun and not just...about a near endless string of humiliating defeats.

@Sgt Smudge: I think you've misunderstood me, I didn't mean 'beat' as in Eldrad has to physically defeat Artemis, not at all, I mean 'beat' as in win the battle, achieve his objective, outwit his opponent. The stuff Eldrad is meant to be amazingly good at, the best of his entire species.

Also, again, just to reinforce; as much of a beatstick as Artemis is I doubt he could be compared to any Chapter Master or even Cato or Ragnar. The level of the two characters is just enormously different.

Also, just to reiterate, Eldrad is described as a War Leader, a brilliant one, that's canon. He is a Commander, whether or not he's a fighter is irrelevant, he's definitely a Commander. He's meant to be a good one too.

 Anemone wrote:
@Sgt Smudge: I think you've misunderstood me, I didn't mean 'beat' as in Eldrad has to physically defeat Artemis, not at all, I mean 'beat' as in win the battle, achieve his objective, outwit his opponent. The stuff Eldrad is meant to be amazingly good at, the best of his entire species.

In which case, I will agree we're looking at different facets.

Eldrad is a tactician, a strategist. And yes, I think he could plan something better than Artemis. But if Eldrad's tools (the Harlequins) are simply worse than Artemis', it swings more on the side of the Deathwatch. Eldrad IS the best tactician of the Eldar, no doubting that. But Artemis might just easily batter aside the Eldar plan and just defeat them with superior strength. Hell, even the Orks can do this to canny Imperial commanders. Ork Warbosses are to humans what human leaders typically are to Eldar. Yet with simple strength and the smarter foe underestimating them, Orks can tactically outwit an enemy. Again, I'll wait on the conclusion of Death Masque and see if it's well written at all.

Also, again, just to reinforce; as much of a beatstick as Artemis is I doubt he could be compared to any Chapter Master or even Cato or Ragnar. The level of the two characters is just enormously different.

I think he could easily be compared to Cato or Blackmane. He's a Captain (same rank) and will have just as many victories and glory to his name. Comparing him to a Chapter Master would be wrong, but another Captain is perfect acceptable.

Also, just to reiterate, Eldrad is described as a War Leader, a brilliant one, that's canon. He is a Commander, whether or not he's a fighter is irrelevant, he's definitely a Commander. He's meant to be a good one too.

Yes, a brilliant commander. No-one's denying that. But why a such a good tactical commander taking part in a ground strike?

@Sgt Smudge: Pretty disappointing if thousand year old enemies of Chaos are that much worse than the Death Watch. But that part at least I expect. I would have hoped Eldrad planned for it.

Also has an Ork Minor Warboss ever, with brute strength, just battered aside Creed, Grimnar, Calgar, Azrael or Dante's plans? I ask because, again I must just say, the problem here is the level of the characters.

But yeah, ultimately, I'll wait to read it and see, for sure.

 Anemone wrote:
Also has an Ork Minor Warboss ever, with brute strength, just battered aside Creed, Grimnar, Calgar, Azrael or Dante's plans? I ask because, again I must just say, the problem here is the level of the characters.

Well, a relatively unknown Ork Warband *did* practically annihilate the Crimson Fists, Grukk Face-Rippa, another minor warboss, wiped out another Chapter, Belial was cut in half by Ghazghkull, Tycho was killed by Orks during Armageddon, and Tuska the Daemon-killa managed to breach Cadia herself to get to Prosan.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, just to reiterate, Eldrad is described as a War Leader, a brilliant one, that's canon. He is a Commander, whether or not he's a fighter is irrelevant, he's definitely a Commander. He's meant to be a good one too.

Yes, a brilliant commander. No-one's denying that. But why a such a good tactical commander taking part in a ground strike?

Because in 40K, leaders have to show their awesomeness by being on the frontlines and hitting someone with a sword or big hammer.

Seriously, the last time I read of a leader that was far away in the back and led for the entire battle rather than fighting in the frontlines was Farseer Kelmon who sat and cast runes in a tent in the battle against the Keeper of Secrets where the Avatar eventually won, back in the 2nd edition days, as part of the Epic Renegades supplement. That's how far back we are talking about.

Partly again this is wish fulfillment fantasy with super-heroic macho characters. Partly this is because combat ineffective leaders would not work well on the 40K tabletop because the rules for strategy type things is a situational and of uncertain benefit whereas good fighting abilities and gear are of consistent value. I have no doubt too that there would be players that would object to being "out-strategized" by the enemy simply including a character in their army, as this removes the element of control from the player. It's one thing for a player to out-play or out-think another player, but it's annoying if it's done automatically by a character.

Iracundus wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Also, just to reiterate, Eldrad is described as a War Leader, a brilliant one, that's canon. He is a Commander, whether or not he's a fighter is irrelevant, he's definitely a Commander. He's meant to be a good one too.

Yes, a brilliant commander. No-one's denying that. But why a such a good tactical commander taking part in a ground strike?

Because in 40K, leaders have to show their awesomeness by being on the frontlines and hitting someone with a sword or big hammer.

Seriously, the last time I read of a leader that was far away in the back and led for the entire battle rather than fighting in the frontlines was Farseer Kelmon who sat and cast runes in a tent in the battle against the Keeper of Secrets where the Avatar eventually won, back in the 2nd edition days, as part of the Epic Renegades supplement. That's how far back we are talking about.

Partly again this is wish fulfillment fantasy with super-heroic macho characters. Partly this is because combat ineffective leaders would not work well on the 40K tabletop because the rules for strategy type things is a situational and of uncertain benefit whereas good fighting abilities and gear are of consistent value. I have no doubt too that there would be players that would object to being "out-strategized" by the enemy simply including a character in their army, as this removes the element of control from the player. It's one thing for a player to out-play or out-think another player, but it's annoying if it's done automatically by a character.

Exactly. Tactics are represented by the ability to Infiltrate, Scout and Outflank units - hardly the hallmark of brilliant tactical genius.

40k is characterised by heroic leaders beating eachother on the field, about a "strong powerful hero" outsmarting the "tricksy weak wizard". A good leader in 40k is the one with the biggest sword/hammer, because shooting should only happen until glorious combat is joined, and a good leader should lead from the front. It suits 40k's medieval fantasy in space vibe, but realistically, it's usless. Hell, there shouldn't even need to be ground battles - combat should be in space, kilometres apart.

If Eldrad was such a good tactician and genius as is in lore, he shouldn't even be on the battlefield.