Ukraine, Again

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**AlmightyWalrus**

Iron_Captain wrote:

Pavlov has not always treated POWs well, that much is true. But he did not shoot them. The Ukrainians meanwhile, kidnap innocent civilians from Donbass in order to trade them for captured soldiers. Now that is a war crime..

You know what else it is? Whataboutism.

**Iron_Captain**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:

Pavlov has not always treated POWs well, that much is true. But he did not shoot them. The Ukrainians meanwhile, kidnap innocent civilians from Donbass in order to trade them for captured soldiers. Now that is a war crime..

You know what else it is? Whataboutism.

Yeah. And pointing that out is also a whataboutism. So what?
Like anyone cares about it. The world is full of whataboutisms. It is a natural human reaction to criticism. Stop wasting your time and learn to deal with it.

**Vaktathi**

So basically your rebuttal boils down to "nuh uh" and "whatabout".

Iron_Captain, you can do better than that.

It doesnt appear Pavlov ever appeared to have disputed the Kyiv Post story, at least that I can find.

Its a wonder how the Russians are always perfect and the Ukrainians are always just either lying or so much worse in every conceivable instance...so black and white..so easy...

Neither side is clean or innocent. Nobody has disputed that the Ukrainians have done some awful things (though a lot of that has also been exaggerated and only reported from Russian sources and not from any other including non-western sources). Lets be real about the Russian characters in this sad drama also having done awful things.

**Iron_Captain**

Vaktathi wrote:
So basically your rebuttal boils down to "nuh uh" and "whatabout".

Iron_Captain, you can do better than that.

It doesnt appear Pavlov ever appeared to have disputed the Kyiv Post story, at least that I can find.

Its a wonder how the Russians are always perfect and the Ukrainians are always just either lying or so much worse in every conceivable instance...so black and white..so easy...

Neither side is clean or innocent. Nobody has disputed that the Ukrainians have done some awful things (though a lot of that has also been exaggerated and only reported from Russian sources and not from any other including non-western sources). Lets be real about the Russian characters in this sad drama also having done awful things.

No. Russian media is virtually always lying when it comes to Ukraine. But so is Ukrainian media. There are no good and bad sides in this conflict. Both sides do exactly the same. The Ukrainians do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Ukrainian and Western media and exaggerated by Russian media. The rebels do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Russian media and exaggerated by Ukrainian media. When the other side doesn't do something horrible, something horrible is made up and reported on as truth. This is the way things go in war.
And Western media just blindly copies everything from Ukrainian media, without any fact-checking whatsoever.

**Vaktathi**

Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.

**oldravenman3025**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
So basically your rebuttal boils down to "nuh uh" and "whatabout".

Iron_Captain, you can do better than that.

It doesnt appear Pavlov ever appeared to have disputed the Kyiv Post story, at least that I can find.

Its a wonder how the Russians are always perfect and the Ukrainians are always just either lying or so much worse in every conceivable instance...so black and white..so easy...

Neither side is clean or innocent. Nobody has disputed that the Ukrainians have done some awful things (though a lot of that has also been exaggerated and only reported from Russian sources and not from any other including non-western sources). Lets be real about the Russian characters in this sad drama also having done awful things.

No. Russian media is virtually always lying when it comes to Ukraine. But so is Ukrainian media. There are no good and bad sides in this conflict. Both sides do exactly the same. The Ukrainians do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Ukrainian and Western media and exaggerated by Russian media. The rebels do lots of horrible things, which then get ignored by Russian media and exaggerated by Ukrainian media. When the other side doesn't do something horrible, something horrible is made up and reported on as truth. This is the way things go in war.
And Western media just blindly copies everything from Ukrainian media, without any fact-checking whatsoever.

That's because the Western controlled media is trying to paint Vladimir Vladimirovich as the next Stalin, while ignoring real evil in

hole countries that offer nothing strategically to the United States or NATO (i.e. won't get invaded over concocted evidence).

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:
There are no good and bad sides in this conflict.

What's the old joke, there's nothing 'civil' in a civil war?

It is true, this war has no heroes, merely bastards. Putin is, however, the one that gets my goat. He kept the war going, and now holds it in stasis for what he believes is Russian national interest. Worse, what he's actually engineered is what will be some of the most violent wars in history once the pressure from Russia gives in the slightest, a self fulfilling prophecy of the annihilation of Russian speaking groups outside Russia.

Terrible crimes that would not have actually happened had he not interfered.

**Iron_Captain**

Vaktathi wrote:
Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.

Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
There are no good and bad sides in this conflict.

What's the old joke, there's nothing 'civil' in a civil war?

It is true, this war has no heroes, merely bastards. Putin is, however, the one that gets my goat. He kept the war going, and now holds it in stasis for what he believes is Russian national interest. Worse, what he's actually engineered is what will be some of the most violent wars in history once the pressure from Russia gives in the slightest, a self fulfilling prophecy of the annihilation of Russian speaking groups outside Russia.

Terrible crimes that would not have actually happened had he not interfered.

I disagree. While Putin certainly made the conflict worse, it would have escalated without his involvement too. Radicals on both sides would have acted regardless of whatever it is Putin did. It is not Putin or any single person who is at fault for this conflict here, but rather it is the direct consequence of mistakes made during the breakup of the Soviet Union and the 1990's that resulted in Ukraine becoming a divided and failed state. Ethnic tensions in Ukraine had always been boiling slightly below the surface, in hindsight it was only a matter of time before it all erupted.

**Vaktathi**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.

Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.

Bin Laden did in-person interviews with western media in 1993, 1997, and 1999, after declaring war and having carried out terrorist attacks on the US. After 2001 and journalists having a record of being used to kill leaders in Afghanistan (like Massoud), it wasn't going to happen for personal safety reasons, but he sent tapes to Al Jazeera meant for distribution to western media for many years after 2001 up until his death. Making a boastful and threatening message to the "enemy" is hardly unheard of, and for a guy like Pavlov who was such a social media darling, it's hard to be believe he wouldn't have addressed it were it false.

**Iron_Captain**

Vaktathi wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.

Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.
Bin Laden did in-person interviews with western media in 1993, 1997, and 1999, after declaring war and having carried out terrorist attacks on the US. After 2001 and journalists having a record of being used to kill leaders in Afghanistan (like Massoud), it wasn't going to happen for personal safety reasons, but he sent tapes to Al Jazeera meant for distribution to western media for many years after 2001 up until his death. Making a boastful and threatening message to the "enemy" is hardly unheard of.

So what if Bin Laden made statements every now and then? Motorola made statements too. That is very different from the NY Times calling Bin Laden to have him answer some questions. You are ignoring my point.
War leaders sending messages to the enemy is something that happens in every war. The press ringing up an enemy leader in wartime for an interview is something that never happens, for good reasons. Not only is it difficult if not impossible to just call them because their phone number is not publicly known but it also would not at all be in the leader's interests, given the inevitable fact that the enemy wartime press will distort everything for propaganda value.
Or did I miss that casual interview that Hitler gave to the BBC in 1943?

**Co'tor Shas**

So you have no proof?

**Vaktathi**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Well, then I would ask, do you have anything to contradict the Kyiv Post story? Again, Pavlov never appeared to deny it, at least as far as I can tell. I can find all sorts of stories on Pavlov, even some that arent strictly negative, including his wedding, even in western media, but nothing about Pavlov denying the recordings authenticity in any realm, even places like SOTT or Pravda.

Nothing but common sense. The Kiev post is an American, heavily pro-Ukrainian regime newspaper. The notion that Pavlov would have contact with them is hilarious. It is like the New York Times calling Osama bin Laden for an interview after the WTC attacks. Don't you see how obviously fake that is?
Besides, I don't have to proof anything. The burden of proof would be on the Kiev Post. I don't know the reason why Pavlov never disputed it, but it could be the fact that he simply had better things to do than dispute all the propaganda articles about him coming out of Kiev.
Bin Laden did in-person interviews with western media in 1993, 1997, and 1999, after declaring war and having carried out terrorist attacks on the US. After 2001 and journalists having a record of being used to kill leaders in Afghanistan (like Massoud), it wasn't going to happen for personal safety reasons, but he sent tapes to Al Jazeera meant for distribution to western media for many years after 2001 up until his death. Making a boastful and threatening message to the "enemy" is hardly unheard of.

So what if Bin Laden made statements every now and then? Motorola made statements too. That is very different from the NY Times calling Bin Laden to have him answer some questions. You are ignoring my point.

No, I'm not, Bin Laden did exactly that sort of thing until it became unsafe to meet directly with Journalists (largely due to his own tactics), but he absolutely met in person with journalists of "the enemy" directly several times.

War leaders sending messages to the enemy is something that happens in every war. The press ringing up an enemy leader in wartime for an interview is something that never happens, for good reasons. Not only is it difficult if not impossible to just call them because their phone number is not publicly known but it also would not at all be in the leader's interests, given the inevitable fact that the enemy wartime press will distort everything for propaganda value.
Or did I miss that casual interview that Hitler gave to the BBC in 1943?

which is a very different thing than a 2010's social media darling fighting in a civil war with massively vague boundaries. It's not like other fighters and officials havent spoken to outfits like Kyiv Post or western outlets like the BBC or VICE many times during the conflict.

Can we be certain the interview is 100% authentic? No, I'll grant that. Given the circumstances of the conflict and similar interviews and statements by others in similar positions to similar outlets, and that nobody seemed to dispute the authenticity, a preponderance of the evidence points to it being authentic, and is in line with his statements and attitudes in other places. I've seen statements from supposed DNR officials issuing a blanket denial that anyone shot prisoners, but nobody that disputed the authenticity of the interview itself.

Just like in the US we cant fully authenticate Chris Kyle's claims, but I'm totally ok with not considering his death any great loss either

**BaronIveagh**

Iron_Captain wrote:

I disagree. While Putin certainly made the conflict worse, it would have escalated without his involvement too. Radicals on both sides would have acted regardless of whatever it is Putin did.

And those same radicals would be, at least mostly, dead. (A war fought by such patriots thins the herd rapidly, and the guys that don't 'lead from the front' are quickly seen for what they are.) Keeping it in stasis will leave the poison to fester in the wound. Eventually that hate gets to be like a religion with generations of hate built up behind it. When it gets free, well, you've seen the middle east and Chechnya. It would have been better to let them fight it out themselves without involving the Russian military to forcibly slow it down and have it settled.

**Wyrmalla**

OKLAHOMA CITY — Members of the Oklahoma National Guard will soon deploy to Ukraine to provide training support in the region, a spokeswoman said Tuesday.

About 500 members from elements of the 45th Infantry Brigade Combat Team will deploy in two six-month rotations late this fall and into next year, said Lt. Col. Lindy White, a spokeswoman for the Oklahoma National Guard.

They will mobilize in about 30 days, she said.

Members will train in Oklahoma and then head to Fort Bliss, Texas, for additional training before deploying overseas, White said.

They will provide training support to Ukraine under the U.S. Security Cooperation Agreement, she said.

Col. David Jordan, commander of the combat team, said Guard members will assist the Ukrainian forces with their training from squad level to staff level.

“It’s a great opportunity for the soldiers of the 45th to use the experiences we’ve gained through our training and deployments,” Jordan said.

“We will be shoulder to shoulder with them as they train on small unit tactics, security, defensive operations and establish their own combat training center.”

The U.S. military already has units training in Ukraine, White said.

Eastern Ukraine has been in crisis as a conflict between Russian-backed separatists and government forces rages on.

Leaders from Russia, France, Germany and Ukraine are expected to meet Wednesday in Berlin to discuss a resolution to the conflict, according to news reports.

“I’m very proud of these brave soldiers as they take part in this important mission,” said Gov. Mary Fallin. “Their service allows us to enjoy the blessings of liberty and live freely in the greatest democracy the world has ever seen.

“We can’t fully repay the debt of gratitude we owe them, but they should know we always will stand behind them and will support them when they return home. While they are away, we will keep them in our thoughts and prayers.”

Since the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, the 45th Infantry Brigade Combat Team has lost 15 members in the line of duty, White said.

The last deployment was in 2011-2012, she said.

“That was the largest deployment of 45th IBCT,” White said. “We had elements in Afghanistan and Kuwait.”

Hardly significant as there's already Americans in country in non-combat roles (we'll take a blind eye to the special forces and mercenaries), but worth a post to keep this thread relevant to our American cousins. I guess they could carry out joint training exercises with all those Russian troops who're over their for training as well. Tsk, wait, no. Those guys are on "holiday", that wouldn't be professional to take them away from their leisure time.