Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sorry if this has been addressed already, but I saw that people were asking about ordinance weapons on russes.

This being kinda confusing to me as the rules were pretty clear on heavy vehicle rules not affecting firing ordinance weapons,
so were people just chancing their arm in asking in the hope we'd get a russ MBT that can take sponsons again?

Pretty much yes wishlisting russes were better.

A large portion of the FAQ's directly go against RAW, so why gamble on them doing it gain ?
They have nothing to lose from doing so.

 oldzoggy wrote:
A large portion of the FAQ's directly go against RAW, so why gamble on them doing it gain ?
They have nothing to lose from doing so.

Beardy gits will be beardy basically? or is it a case of "your dudes"-ism

I saw that people were asking about ordinance weapons on russes.

It may also be optimistic memory. The "Lumbering Behemoth" rule - which Leman Russ used to have before the 'heavy' vehicle type became a standard rule - was that you could fire your turret weapon (whatever it was) in addition to any other weapons you were normally allowed to fire.

That got scrubbed at the last version of the guard codex in favour of the general rule 'heavy' - which stops you going at cruising speed, but lets you fire everything on the move. Crucially, it had no allowance for ordnance weapons (there was no 'snap fire' at the time so you just got to fire or not).

A lot of guard players never really noticed they'd had the ability taken away (because GW doesn't very often remove abilities) and to this day some veterans are convinced they can fire their turret and sponsons at full effect unless you get them to read the rules.

locarno24 wrote:

I saw that people were asking about ordinance weapons on russes.

It may also be optimistic memory. The "Lumbering Behemoth" rule - which Leman Russ used to have before the 'heavy' vehicle type became a standard rule - was that you could fire your turret weapon (whatever it was) in addition to any other weapons you were normally allowed to fire.

That got scrubbed at the last version of the guard codex in favour of the general rule 'heavy' - which stops you going at cruising speed, but lets you fire everything on the move. Crucially, it had no allowance for ordnance weapons (there was no 'snap fire' at the time so you just got to fire or not).

A lot of guard players never really noticed they'd had the ability taken away (because GW doesn't very often remove abilities) and to this day some veterans are convinced they can fire their turret and sponsons at full effect unless you get them to read the rules.

That explains it pretty well, I wasn't aware people were still operating under the assumption the russ MBT can fire all without forcing snapshots on itself for anything besides the BC.

Everyone on the interwebz I've read about or met in person seems to understand how Heavy works with regards to Ordnance and snap shots. I know I was hoping the FAQ would re-introduce Lumbering Behemoth to fix that, but I suppose that was too much of a stretch.

Russes remain expensive doorstops. Big shocker. Unless GW picks up the big turd they crapped all over AV 14, Russes are never going to be any good.

Martel732 wrote:
Russes remain expensive doorstops. Big shocker. Unless GW picks up the big turd they crapped all over AV 14, Russes are never going to be any good.

LRBT [120 pts]

Av: F14 / S13 / R11
Bs: 3

Wargear:
Battlecannon

Special Rules:
Lumbering Behemoth (LRBT can fire all weapons at full BS, regardless of Ordnance)

Upgrades:

Sponsons ... Points
Hull-mount ... Points

===========

Something like that would be a start.

Its shocking to see a proposed points costs for a basic russ at 120pts. I mean, you're not wrong, far from it, but it raises the question of how low the floor is for points cost. A 120pts basic russ will push one or two variants down too, which means hellhounds need to come fairly dramatically, which will push the chimera cost down, which then means the sentinel needs to come down too. Before we know it, we'll have 15pts sentinels and 55pts for a hellhound.

Its a race to the bottom.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its a race to the bottom.

Yeah, everyone who always posts how something should cost less points needs to see that just making things cost less only results in the same problems - except more so, because the difference between effectiveness starts becoming more and more apparent.

Imagine it this way; Do you really care whether a game console costs $199 or $200? Not really. $1 isn't really going to change anything for you. It doesn't even matter if the one for $199 even gives you a choice of a free bonus avatar or something, you might still buy the $200 one that's right in front of you because it's more convenient.

However, let's say that instead of it being a console, let's say it's a pack of Magic Cards. One spot charges $3 a pack, and the next place charges $4 a pack. It's still only a difference of $1, but because that represents such a much more massive percentage increase in price, you are much, much more likely to get the $3 one, even if it is an inconvenience to you.

In 40k, if Space Marines costed 140 points per model, and basic Guardsman cost 50 points per model, and we played 15000 point games rather than 1500, shaving 1 point off the Guardsman so it's 49 points wouldn't really matter. It'd maybe be more accurately represent the power different between them than 50 points would. Chop a 0 off that whole list, and you get 14 points for a Space Marine, 5 points for a Guardsmen, and 1500 point games... but you can't chop a 0 off the Guardsman! So either you leave it at 5 points, which is over-priced, or bring it down to 4 points, which is underpriced.

Just saying "this should be less points" is not an effective way to balance things out. Some times you need to make things cost more points instead, or take on penalties to taking options, or make some options less effective. What if Grav had Gets Hot? What if Wraithknights had old-school Wraithsight so there's a risk they do nothing for a turn? What if an Imperial Knight's shield had a chance of overloading like the Nova Reactor? I think these are things that could be far better used in the game right now to help balance things out than they already are.

 Blacksails wrote:

Its a race to the bottom.

And the sad thing is that to prevent this, we'd have to rewrite all the other codexes. Even at 120 points per hull, the LRBT is still far from OP atm.

Currently, I'm working on a re-edit of the 7E rulebook. The idea is to cut out the unnecessary rules/wording/random, and end up with a fairly familiar 40k ruleset without so much rules bloat and confusion. From that, the plan is to remake the codexes to be in line with the ruleset.

Personally, "balance" will be relative to a Guardsman model. Call them 10ppm, and then make all other costings fit that. Ideally, a game of that would run with 1-3 troop choices and 1-2 vehicles for a "normal game".

Which reminds me of another, oft unmentioned problem in 40k. Every time a new unit type or game phase is released, the larger a TAC army must be to remain playable.
Added flyers? All armies must add them and/or some AA.
Psychic phase ruling the game? All armies must add some Psy or find a counter.
GMC's on the table? Gonna need a unit of Grav, too.

Oh, I agree, I'm just remarking on the state of the game and how much worse it could get before a total re-write is just about mandatory.

I mean, even the DW release (which I'm actually excited for and will be starting that army) has the power creep where basic infantry models have a gun that is a S6 template with Shred Assault 2 for anti-infantry work, while also being S7 AP3 or S9 AP2 at 12" Assault 2 for all your anti-tank/MC needs. Why bother with any other special or heavy weapon?

Say hello to GW's sneaky way of increasing army sizes...Rather than push upping of basic game size(which would be harder) simply lower point costs.

The Leman Russ is greatly devalued because of hull points, D weapons, haywire, and ordnance rules. That's just the reality of the model. It's in the same bin as the Land Raider.

 Blacksails wrote:
Its shocking to see a proposed points costs for a basic russ at 120pts. I mean, you're not wrong, far from it, but it raises the question of how low the floor is for points cost. A 120pts basic russ will push one or two variants down too, which means hellhounds need to come fairly dramatically, which will push the chimera cost down, which then means the sentinel needs to come down too. Before we know it, we'll have 15pts sentinels and 55pts for a hellhound.

Its a race to the bottom.

Completely agree. At present almost every single unit in the AM codex needs a drastic points reduction. Leman Russ variants, chimera, sentinels, ogryn, ...you name it all need to be brought down in cost. I'd even argue guardsmen need to be brought down to 3 or 4 points a model. Currently they only serve as a tax on the army. Outside of conscript/priest tarpits, they are garbage. Sure sometimes you can get lucky with FRSRF but with how bloated the game has become with 3+ armor, invul saves, FNP etc, hundreds of lasgun hits often results in little to no wounds.

The scale of the game and allowances of the rules have definitely run away on itself. A couple weeks agoo I watched a lasgun FRFSRF fusillade from a full 50 strong platoon blob, with rapid firing plasma guns and lascannons, unload on an Endurance FNP'd TWC deathstar do a grand total of two wounds, killing zero models. 50 models and about 500pts just basically totally whiffed (and were subsequently eaten by the TWC deathstar) and on actually relatively average rolling. How many models at how low a price would you need to balance something like that out? It boggles the mind.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Completely agree. At present almost every single unit in the AM codex needs a drastic points reduction. Leman Russ variants, chimera, sentinels, ogryn, ...you name it all need to be brought down in cost. I'd even argue guardsmen need to be brought down to 3 or 4 points a model. Currently they only serve as a tax on the army. Outside of conscript/priest tarpits, they are garbage. Sure sometimes you can get lucky with FRSRF but with how bloated the game has become with 3+ armor, invul saves, FNP etc, hundreds of lasgun hits often results in little to no wounds.

At which point cultists need to be brought down but is cultist really that much worse it would be 25%/33% cheaper?

Whatabout grotz? 3 pts now. If guardmen is 3 pts...Grotz are S2 T2 WS2 I2 LD5 with 12" assault 1 S3 gun. Hardly equal to guardsmen. But 50% worse? 66% worse?

No. Game would need to go REVERSE direction. Up the prices so there's again more variety be had and gap between normal and elite isn't so ridiculously small.

Points are have lost a lot of their meaning in 7th.

You can get 12 rhinos at 0 points per model in a battle company. 14 drop pods for free if you also take dreadnoughts with drop pods. So we are talking 420-490 points in free vehicles.

War convocation similarly gives hundreds of free points of upgrades. I read somewhere once that it was like 700 points.

Khrone Daemonkin can summon multiple 250 point blood thirsters among other units.

Just Daemonology can summon hundreds of points.

I believe Orks, Tau, Tyranids, and Chaos Space Marines (Crimson Slaughter I think) have formations where units come back once destroyed.

Guard are supposed to be points efficient and win a battle of attrition, but they can't against the free points spam.

Solution:

-Mechanized decurion: 6 free chimeras without upgrades for each troop slot = 390 points
-Infantry decurion: 1 free infantry platoon without upgrades = 655 points
-Tank decurion: 1 free tank platoon staring as eradicators without upgrades = 360 points
-Artillery decurion: 1 free battery of basilisks = 375 points
-Air decurion: 1 free platoon of valkyries = 375 points


That is how much of a point disadvantage guard are at against the free points 7th edition stuff, you could get an entire platoon for free with those points.

The biggest issue with heavy not conveying the bonus for ordinance is that the two units with it (leman russ tank and the monolith) both USED to ignore that penalty (iirc).

So, they both got an updated, standardised rule name, but both lost their ability to effectively do damage at all.

Orthon wrote:
Points are have lost a lot of their meaning in 7th.

You can get 12 rhinos at 0 points per model in a battle company. 14 drop pods for free if you also take dreadnoughts with drop pods. So we are talking 420-490 points in free vehicles.

War convocation similarly gives hundreds of free points of upgrades. I read somewhere once that it was like 700 points.

Khrone Daemonkin can summon multiple 250 point blood thirsters among other units.

Just Daemonology can summon hundreds of points.

I believe Orks, Tau, Tyranids, and Chaos Space Marines (Crimson Slaughter I think) have formations where units come back once destroyed.

Guard are supposed to be points efficient and win a battle of attrition, but they can't against the free points spam.

Solution:

-Mechanized decurion: 6 free chimeras without upgrades for each troop slot = 390 points
-Infantry decurion: 1 free infantry platoon without upgrades = 655 points
-Tank decurion: 1 free tank platoon staring as eradicators without upgrades = 360 points
-Artillery decurion: 1 free battery of basilisks = 375 points
-Air decurion: 1 free platoon of valkyries = 375 points


That is how much of a point disadvantage guard are at against the free points 7th edition stuff, you could get an entire platoon for free with those points.

I completely agree, that point costs (the single most important balance mechanism in this game) have lost all meaning in 7th. The point cost disparity between nearly identical units, between 2 different armies can be outright absurd. Which is why I have absolutely no faith that 8th edition will resolve anything, when the core issue (point costs) are at the codex level. Any half competent game designer would have realized this after 2-3 editions, let alone 7-8. Create a codex in a new edition, then balance all point cost of the following codices around said codex. Its not rocket science.

I am however opposed to using formations/decurion to resolve said imbalances. I'm sure many will disagree, but for me personally...one of the only remaining attractive elements 40k still has going for it is list building. Formations are the complete opposite of that. Its also the lazy way out for game designers. Rather than having to actually create a balanced, competitive, diverse wargame, they just have to come up with 2-3 formations for each army and call it a day. Its lazy. The argument that there are to many variables, its too hard doesn't hold any weight when there are dozens of other games out there that have accomplished exactly that.