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Anyone actually like rolling for WL Traits or Psykic powers? I know I don't. When I make a list and kit out an HQ I have an idea or theme or even back story behind them.

Then all of a sudden they get a stupid random warlord trait that is useless and doesn't fit their style. Same with psyker tables.

The realistic proposal here would be to reevaluate the point cost for all units specifically HQ's an psykers, lower the cost then price spells and traits appropriately so that the units come in around the same price point.

Has anyone done this? Has GW done this? What does 1pt of Str cost? Is movement ability factored in to the point cost of a model? have they already factored in the ability to take a WL trait or psykic power level?

What makes a
SM Captain 90pts?
Librarian 65pts?
Tac Marine 14pts?

Naaris wrote:
Anyone actually like rolling for WL Traits or Psykic powers? I know I don't. When I make a list and kit out an HQ I have an idea or theme or even back story behind them.

Then all of a sudden they get a stupid random warlord trait that is useless and doesn't fit their style. Same with psyker tables.

The realistic proposal here would be to reevaluate the point cost for all units specifically HQ's an psykers, lower the cost then price spells and traits appropriately so that the units come in around the same price point.

Has anyone done this? Has GW done this? What does 1pt of Str cost? Is movement ability factored in to the point cost of a model? have they already factored in the ability to take a WL trait or psykic power level?

What makes a
SM Captain 90pts?
Librarian 65pts?
Tac Marine 14pts?

This was, effectively, the old method of things. Warlord Traits didn't exist back then, but Psychic Powers were individually purchased. Personally, I think they got rid of them to try and make Psykers a bit more varied in what they could do, and answer the question "If Eldrad's the greatest psyker in the galaxy, why can't they cast this basic power that a Librarian has?". The answer now is there's a general pool of abilities and a few schools that different groups consider good or bad to access, so Eldrad "can" get these same powers, but maybe he's just focused on something else right now.

That said, I think that was kind of dumb. I liked purchased powers, and what a psyker had access to was, for me, more about what they were most comfortable doing. Psykers still aren't quite where I think they should be though. A very different system needs to be in place. Psychic Powers and Psykers themselves right now go from 0 to busted far too quickly.

I don't mind the idea of rolling random powers, but I feel that each discipline has too many. I think they should only have 5 powers + Primaris. If a "6' is rolled, you can pick your power.

I think this is how WL traits should be as well. Each table only has 5 traits + a default trait. Rolling a 6 allows you to pick. Certain Detachments will still allow a re-roll. So you have 2 chances to roll the trait you want (or roll a 6), and as a back-up there is the default trait

This keeps the "random" element GW likes, but gives a bit of power to the players. That should make it much easier to build a strategy around traits/powers

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I strongly prefer purchased powers and purchased warlord traits. If I want my warlord to be known for leading his forces to victory in urban environments, then darnit I want to be able to choose Conqueror of Cities rather than rolling a a penalty to my opponent's reserves.

Similarly, psykers really should be able to pick their powers.

"Quick! Librarian! Use your powers to telekinetically levitate us across this chasm!"
"I can't."
"But you just did it yesterday!"
"Yes, but today I rolled crush instead."

Being able to choose which powers or warlord trait your army brings to the table lets you give the relevant models personality and flavor. Having to roll for those things actively hinders efforts to give them personality.

As for pricing powers and models and what not, a couple thoughts:
* GW's go-to cost for an extra mastery level is 25 points. How would reducing the cost of all models by 25 points per mastery level work out? We'd be looking at 25 point farseers, but that might not actually be a problem if all their powers are in the ballpark of 15 to 40 points apiece depending on the power.

* Some powers might not really work when purchasable. For instance, what price tag do you put on invisibility? I feel like you either price that power so high that it becomes impractical to take it thus causing it to never see use or else you don't price it high enough to be impractical, and then it gets used in the most abusive way possible.

* Some powers and warlord traits are more potent in different hands. Granting master of ambush to an IG army, for instance, probably isn't that big a deal. Granting it to a dark eldar army with a corpse thief claw is very diffferent.

So basically, I really like the idea of purchasable powers and warlord traits, but I feel you'd probably have to work a couple things form the ground up. Alternatively, maybe it would be possible to create custom tables that are only usable by a specific faction so that you could limit unforseeen abuse? For instance, you might create a dark eldar purchasable trait table that gives you something similar to master of ambush but excludes MCs from being infiltrated instead of vehicles.

If you're really dead set on removing the rolls on the tables, then the best way to do it is to put points costs for each power in the BRB, not in the unit entries of the Psyker.

There are too many books that would need updating. So you could just list points for each power, with most of them being free to take (like Primarus), since the Psyker has already paid the price to take powers. But certain powers (like Invis) would mean a points increase.

Lets take Divination, for example. Prescience, Precognition, Scrier's Gaze, & Foreboding might all be free to choose, whereas Misfortune, Forewarning & Perfect timing might come with a points cost to take those powers. These would be no more than 5-15 pts
Powers like Invis might be 20+ points to take
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 Galef wrote:
If you're really dead set on removing the rolls on the tables, then the best way to do it is to put points costs for each power in the BRB, not in the unit entries of the Psyker.

There are too many books that would need updating. So you could just list points for each power, with most of them being free to take (like Primarus), since the Psyker has already paid the price to take powers. But certain powers (like Invis) would mean a points increase.

Lets take Divination, for example. Prescience, Precognition, Scrier's Gaze, & Foreboding might all be free to choose, whereas Misfortune, Forewarning & Perfect timing might come with a points cost to take those powers. These would be no more than 5-15 pts
Powers like Invis might be 20+ points to take
-

That doesn't really hold up. Prescience is WC2 because it's a strictly better power than, for instance, smite. Psychic focus granting a primaris makes sense because the resource used to get powers is ML. When you can theoretically have however many powers you want provided you pay the cost, that changes up the dynamic. Most primaris powers should probably be pretty cheap, but there should still be variation in their costs. Compare psychic shriek to the pyromancy primaris, for instance.

While I agree that some powers are better, I was going off the fact that currently any Primaris is free and guaranteed. Those are the powers that a psyker would be most familiar with from that discipline and should really know just for choosing that discipline.

 Galef wrote:
While I agree that some powers are better, I was going off the fact that currently any Primaris is free and guaranteed. Those are the powers that a psyker would be most familiar with from that discipline and should really know just for choosing that discipline.

Despite the fluff of those powers often being the most basic that a psyker learns, I still don't believe that this logic really holds up. By changing powers from being random to be purchasable, you change certain assumptions about power generation. With random power generation, the point of the primaris is to make sure the psyker doesn't end up with a completely useless batch of powers. Even if you roll Foreboding and Scryer's gaze, for instance, you'll at least end up with prescience. Even if you get Haemorrhage and Leech Essence, at least you'll still have Smite. By rolling on multiple tables, you gain flexibility, but you lose psychic focus. Conversely, you can restrict the number of potentially really good powers you get by rolling on a single table, but you gain psychic focus.

If the psyker can pick and choose powers (by paying the appropriate number of points for them), then there's no need for a "cushion" to be there making sure the psyker has at least one good power. Smite is okay. Prescience is better. These two things should both be worth a certain number of points, and Prescience should be worth more. As long as we're using points, there's not really a reason to support this imbalance. If Prescience is worth 20 points and smite is worth 5, why reward the telepathic guy with 15 free points next to the biomancy guy?

If you want to reward players for taking a "themed" psyker that rolls on a single table, maybe just give him a small discount on one of his powers instead. "If all of a psyker's powers are taken from a single discipline, one of those powers may be purchased for 10 points less than the usual cost (to a minimum of 0 points)." Something like that.

I dont understand the point of purchased wl traits. Each army gets one as a basic component of the game. If your making it so you can pick your trait then just pick it. Powers i can understand since some powers are so much more powerful then others. Applying a cost makes some sense.

 Lance845 wrote:
I dont understand the point of purchased wl traits. Each army gets one as a basic component of the game. If your making it so you can pick your trait then just pick it. Powers i can understand since some powers are so much more powerful then others. Applying a cost makes some sense.

In the same way that some powers are better than others, some warlord traits are better than others. There's a CSM one, for instance, that lets you infiltrate your warlord and d3 units. Master of Ambush lets you infiltrate a flat 3. Then there's stuff like dust of a thousand worlds which is a 12" bubble of MTC. Compare that to Conqueror of Cities which is MTC army-wide in ruins (which, in my experience, tends to be the most common type of terrain people use) AND grants army-wide stealth in ruins too. Unless you're really really unlikely to be fighting near ruins, Dust of a Thousand Worlds is probably quite a bit worse.

Then there's stuff like the trait that grants -1 to enemy reserve rolls (only has a 1/6th chance of actually being the reason reserves didn't come in) next to the one that lets you reroll your own reserve rolls AND grants a bonus to seize the initiative. -1 to enemy reserve rolls also probably isn't nearly as powerful as the one that lets me infiltrate, for instance, a corpse thief claw.

And when you can plan around a warlord trait, some of them are much more abusable than others. An aura that grants MTC isn't so bad, but how about that corpse thief claw/master of ambush combo I just mentioned?

EDIT: So currently, warlord traits are "balanced" around the idea that you can't plan on getting one for certain and abusing it. Picking warlord traits changes that. Having points for different traits lets you slap a cost onto the obvious advantages.

 Lance845 wrote:
I dont understand the point of purchased wl traits. Each army gets one as a basic component of the game. If your making it so you can pick your trait then just pick it. Powers i can understand since some powers are so much more powerful then others. Applying a cost makes some sense.

I think there are a lot of crappy WL traits.

Some of them could be merged together, while others could be beefed up affecting multiple units or army wide modifications. If the BRB tables were brought down to a list of 20 or so reasonably equal strong traits - traits that you could build an army around. Then you could charge for those traits accordingly.Most traits now suck and rarely have an impact.

If they were all good and made you really think about how you could tailor a force around a "Warlord" and his/her combat style or expertise. Did GW cost HQ and account for their ability to take WL trait? I doubt it.

First, I'd say if it were possible to purchase traits and powers, that the units would have the option to do so and not be forced to buy them.
Second, Warlords and Psykers would cost less with than they do now, to account for now having to purchase traits / powers

If all HQ's (not named ones with Traits / preset powers) were 20pts cheaper and all psykers were 20pts cheaper (meaning HQ pyskers were 40pts cheaper - so potentially some pyskers may need a point bump so that if they have no WL Trait or powers their at least, say 10pts)

If a pysker chooses not to buy powers then I would say that they would at least get force for free.

Primaris powers are no longer free. I liked the idea of some discounts if a psyker remains in one power table.

Level 1 powers are 5-15pts, lvl 2 powers are 16-30 pts, Lvl 3 powers 31 - 50pts

WL traits could Range from 15-30pts depending on how powerful they are.

I wouldn't mind Warlord Traits if they were more universally useful, or if they were assembled in such a way that they did the same things, only differently.

Like, instead of Personal, Command, and Strategic, the traits were more like "Logistics, Urban Warfare, Guerrilla Warfare", with all the traits in each dancing around the same combat philosophy. Logistics could be like:

1; +1 to your Reserve Rolls
2; reroll your Reserve Rolls
3; you may start rolling for Reserves on Turn 1
4; you may reroll your Outlank roll to see what side you come in from, and may reroll scattter dice when Deep Striking
5; up to 3 units in your army may make a Scout move.
6; If you go first, you may deploy your models after your opponent. If you deploy deploy second, you receive +2 to Seize the Initiative.

All of these dance around the idea that your Warlord is better at putting their forces where they want them, and give a bonus to that part of the game. Almost regardless of the army you have, if you want to be focused on this kind of strategy, these Warlord Traits will help.

Honestly, if we were going to go this route, especially for Warlord traits, I'd rather we do away with BRB traits and just give more and better traits to each codex to reflect the armies better.

I mean, even if this meant 'duplicating' traits under a different name if such a trait would fit said army's known tactics. Would be a lot easier IMO to not only balance the costs equally (As discussed, some traits are more potent on some armies and worthless on others anyway).

That's just me though. As for Psyker powers, I agree they shouldn't be so random. I hate how psykers seem to just forget they knew a power just previous battle. Or, the game is just ASSUMING my army has a million different psykers and my warlord is incompetent at selecting the indevidual with powers suitable to the battle at hand...just like the game assumes my army has a million commanders and they play rock-paper-scissors to see who gets to lead that battle, meaning I could get the gakkiest warlord for the job.

It's not fluffy or fun to have a Warlord/Psyker become drastically less efficient, especially when we have to pay that point premium just to get them in the first place.

I don't like to waste my points on garbage when my psykers and warlords are supposed to be beneficial, not a hindrance.

I'd prefer to purchase Psychic Powers & Warlord Traits.

This is coming from a Daemons players who, on top of this, also has to randomly roll to see what wargear my dudes decided to leave the house with today!
It's incredibly frustrating knowing that in one game, your Daemon Prince can easily one-round a Wrathknight (when you roll up Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Fleshbane/Armorbane) and in the next game you can barely hurt the same model (when you get Life Leech, Hemorrhage, and 3+ Armor).

Obviously psychic powers and warlord traits would need to be recosted. But I think consistency provides a better play experience than overt randomness.


The issue is that, like so many other things in the game, the price of psychic powers should vary dramatically based on the army. Its why psychic deathstars are so broken - because the powers give multiplicative buffs rather that very quickly exceed the cost to provide it.

Take Forewarning. 4+ invlunerable save. This power is worth a small amount to a Daemon or Terminator unit as it reduces casualties by 25%. But it's worth a huge amount to guard, where it reduces casualties by 50%. Prescience is worth more on BS2 than BS5. Endurance is worth more on W3 models than W1. Etc, etc. So it is difficult / impossible to price powers correctly in all situations.

Trasvi wrote:
So it is difficult / impossible to price powers correctly in all situations.

Hence rolling them randomly.

In the Age Of Sigmar's Generals Handbook, you can either roll randomly for your general trait or just pick it yourself, depending on how you and your opponent want to do things. Unfortunately I don't think this would work in 40k.

Trasvi wrote:
I'd prefer to purchase Psychic Powers & Warlord Traits.

This is coming from a Daemons players who, on top of this, also has to randomly roll to see what wargear my dudes decided to leave the house with today!
It's incredibly frustrating knowing that in one game, your Daemon Prince can easily one-round a Wrathknight (when you roll up Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Fleshbane/Armorbane) and in the next game you can barely hurt the same model (when you get Life Leech, Hemorrhage, and 3+ Armor).

Obviously psychic powers and warlord traits would need to be recosted. But I think consistency provides a better play experience than overt randomness.


The issue is that, like so many other things in the game, the price of psychic powers should vary dramatically based on the army. Its why psychic deathstars are so broken - because the powers give multiplicative buffs rather that very quickly exceed the cost to provide it.

Take Forewarning. 4+ invlunerable save. This power is worth a small amount to a Daemon or Terminator unit as it reduces casualties by 25%. But it's worth a huge amount to guard, where it reduces casualties by 50%. Prescience is worth more on BS2 than BS5. Endurance is worth more on W3 models than W1. Etc, etc. So it is difficult / impossible to price powers correctly in all situations.

I'm inclined to agree Having generic tables can get messy fast. Having faction-specific powers and traits as the only powers and traits available would make it easier to balance the powers and traits available. It would also break down the size of such a project into smaller, more managable pieces if someone wanted to actually start pricing powers and traits for each faction one at a time. Plus, I actually kind of like faction-specific options as I feel they tend to be a bit more flavorful.

Now that said, I'm not necessarily completely opposed to having generic power and trait tables, but they would probably need to be reworked to only include things that won't be unintentionally more powerful in some hands than others. I could see, for instance, a relatively straight-forward discipline like pyromancy being available to several factions without causing too much trouble.

The problem with choosing powers/traits is that there are powers/traits that are completely useless and powers/traits that are nightmarishly powerful. The stock example here is Invisibility, which isn't really possible to price fairly.

Any attempt would have to come with an overhaul to a lot of powers/Warlord traits, and an acknowledgement that each discipline isn't necessarily going to come with the same number of powers.